Russia Blocks Sale of Chinese JF-17 Fighter Jets to Pakistan

[Neo]

Won't let China use our engines for Pak planes: Moscow

Wednesday January 24, 2007

On the eve of President Vladimir Putin's visit to India for Republic Day, Moscow has given a categorical assurance to New Delhi that it will not allow China to supply JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter aircraft to Pakistan equipped with Russian RD-93 engines.
Government sources confirmed that the Russian assurance was conveyed by Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov to visiting National Security Advisor M K Narayanan at a meeting in Moscow on January 11.

This puts a question mark over the Sino-Pak joint venture as Islamabad hoped to get some 150 aircraft (called FC-1 in China) to counter the developing Indian Light Combat Aircraft.

Pakistan has invested $150 million in the project with Russia already supplying 16 RD-93 aircraft engines to the Chengdu Aeronautical Complex. Under the agreement, Moscow is contracted to supply 100 engines with an option of another 500 jet engines.

Official sources told The Indian Express that Ivanov told the NSA that Moscow has made Beijing sign an end-user certificate on the RD-93 engines to ensure that they cannot be re-exported to Pakistan. Ivanov arrives in India tomorrow with Putin scheduled to follow on January 25.

While Moscow has been able to address Indian security concerns in the neighbourhood, it is still mulling over signing the "integrity pact", now a must for all countries involved in big-ticket hardware deals with New Delhi.

Under the new rules for a bilateral arms supply deal, a country has to sign a pledge with New Delhi saying that will not indulge in any bribe-giving or malpractices to influence Indian officials in its favour. Defence Ministry officials say that United States, France and Israel have already signed this pact.

However, Russian Deputy Defence Minister Mikhail Dmitriyev told a visiting delegation led by Joint Secretary (Land Systems) Rajiv Takru on December 14 that Moscow needs "legal consultations" before signing the pact. Dmitriyev and his boss Ivanov are expected to finalise the issue in a meeting with Defence Minister AK Antony and Secretary Shekhar Dutt on January 24.

On the joint manufacture of medium transport aircraft (to replace the aging Indian An-32), India has said no to the Russian term of prior consent before selling the aircraft to a third country.

But the issue is still open. New Delhi will invest $300 million in the $600-million project with Russia diverting the remaining amount from the existing Rupee-Rouble account.

So for the time being India and Russia will sign a protocol of intent for the MTA aircraft (Russia will buy 100 and India 40) and an agreement allowing New Delhi to manufacture RD-33 aircraft engines that are used in MiG-29 K.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/070123/48/6bfws.html

 

[HAIDER]

Interesting development.......let see what Russian defence and commerce dept issue press release about JF17 engine deal.....Do we need to wait till march 2007?...or change in delivery date?

 

[Contrarian]

I guess this says a bit about those who were saying that China is very important to Russia, more so than India, and that Russia will never agree?? For them the Chinese market is more important, etc , etc, etc??

 

[Bull]

I don't believe we would go into this project without having a back up plan. There've been rumors about a french engine, probably Snecma Atar-9C.

Blain, can you confirm that?

You just cant have so mnay back up plans. The original was suppose to be the WS-13 engine, when the delay hit the develpement, the chineese opted for the Rd 93 and now even there is a delay in it.

So this project is definitly delayed now.

 

[Chukkar]

India has truly handed Pakistan a fait accompli over the JF-17. Seriously, what were the Pak-Chinese project managers thinking, by going for the RD-93? Couldnt they see the mistakes made by Indian PMs by choosing the Ge404 and the impact of sanctions on the LCA, to learn from it? This could well be a body blow to the JF-17 project. Even the J10 is similarly constrained, until the WS-10 is launched into mass manufacture.

 

[Keysersoze]

India has truly handed Pakistan a fait accompli over the JF-17. Seriously, what were the Pak-Chinese project managers thinking, by going for the RD-93? Couldnt they see the mistakes made by Indian PMs by choosing the Ge404 and the impact of sanctions on the LCA, to learn from it? This could well be a body blow to the JF-17 project. Even the J10 is similarly constrained, until the WS-10 is launched into mass manufacture.

I wouldn't start counting these chickens as being hatched (If that statement makes any sense.. ) after all there is precedent here......

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/may/03arms.htm

Russian firm in secret arms deal with Pakistan

May 03, 2005 23:18 IST

A Russian company is supplying Pakistan with sensitive defence technology to "blind" smart weapons guided by the Global Positioning System without an official agreement between the two governments, military industry sources said.

This is seen as a possible violation of Russia's export control norms.

The Russian company VTF, affiliated to Scientific-Research Institute of Telecommunications in the city of Voronezh is supplying the generators for jamming GPS receivers of the smart weapons to Pakistan, according to the local military industry sources.

Pakistan wanted the sensitive technology to protect its key military installations. Pakistani company Trillium Pakistan (Pvt) Ltd is involved in the deal with VTF.

VTF's representatives have frequently visited Pakistan to negotiate the supplies of GPS jammers and radio-interception and control systems used in electronic warfare, defence industry sources told PTI.

Russian GPS jammers first surfaced two years back in Iraq when many US smart weapons missed their targets during massive strikes on key installations of Saddam Hussein's regime, causing a row between Moscow and Washington.

In a bid to tighten Russia's export control regime and hand over its charge to the military from the civilian authorities, Russian President Vladimir Putin last week appointed his close ally Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov as the chairman of the State Export Control Commission.

 

[Keysersoze]

Now I think that everyone should take a pause here.....As someone else said the Russians are probably playing their own games here. If the Russians (who were involved from early on in the project) create too many problems for the FC-1 (and China loses sales to other third parties interested in it) It could harm their lucrative deals in the pipeline (which would be worth more than the Indian deals) I think the the Russians are just playing a game here. Waiting until the MRCA deal goes through and then they will turn a blind eye to rd-93 equipped planes being sent to Pak. (Or maybe China will send them with "Chinese" engines that have a mysterious smell of vodka )





Background Analysis
The Situation Of The Russian Mfi Stealthy Fighter Planes

by Andrei Pinkov


KWIC news January 14 Moscow: On January 12, Russia officially made public its first MFI stealthy fighter plane. It was for the first time in the aviation history of Russia that a new-model fighter plane was made public to the Western countries prior to its test flight. It indicated that the process of its test flight and model determination had encountered a tremendous financial difficulty. Russia did so in the hope of exploring the possibility of cooperating with the other countries, especially China and India, on the research and development of the MFI.

The military observers in Moscow believe that the MFI plane may only serve as a technical verifier, which displays Russia’s ability to keep close track of the high aviation technology of the world. The KWIC believes that it is very possible for the MFI to become the Russian version of LAVI fighter plane. It is reported that the MIG-MAPO has been working on the design of the new light-duty fighter planes on the basis of the MFI.

After the SUKHOI Designing Bureau, the MIG-MAPO is another one that keeps a close military relationship with China.From 1992, the MIG-MAPO started to enter the Chinese market, helping the Chengdu Aircraft Company redesign the FC1 fighter plane and providing the necessary plan on the redesign of the RD93 engine.

As for the SUKHOI, it obtained part of the necessary research funds through its successful sales of the SU27 to China to help itself finish ahead of time the development of the S37 experimental plane that utilizes the stabilization technology ( Kanwa digest news by Andrei Pinkov).

http://www.kanwa.com/english/990120e.html

 

[Adux]

I wouldnt Take Kanwa seriously,

And Russia - India are the one's who are building the 5th generation Fighter, its all over the NEWS, said by Defence Minister of Russia Sergi Ivanov and it is already posted on this forum.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

so whats the future of jf-17 in paf is it a failed project or will we find some way out of this???? whats the present status?

 

[Adux]

genmiraj,

I am sure PAF will find some way out, you cant just abandon that much amount of work. Only time will tell, But u can expect a delay

 

[Bull]

I wouldn't start counting these chickens as being hatched (If that statement makes any sense.. ) after all there is precedent here......

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/may/03arms.htm

Russian firm in secret arms deal with Pakistan

It got reported in a India mass media.
Guess what would have happened to the company and the deal by now?

 

[Bull]

If the Russians (who were involved from early on in the project) create too many problems for the FC-1 (and China loses sales to other third parties interested in it) It could harm their lucrative deals in the pipeline (which would be worth more than the Indian deals)

Which lucrative deal are you talking here. Once china has the J-10 ready for induction it wont approach Russia for any more jets.

India pruchases more weapons that China.And Russia know very well that China cant go anywhere else while India can.They are already facing stiff competition from Israelis in the India defence market.

I think the the Russians are just playing a game here.

Yeah definitly they have to play this out neatly, they cant annoy either of them.

Waiting until the MRCA deal goes through and then they will turn a blind eye to rd-93 equipped planes being sent to Pak. (Or maybe China will send them with "Chinese" engines that have a mysterious smell of vodka

MRCA deal is not the end. There are more ships which In needs plus the maritime patrol aircraft, fighgter jest to replace the MIGs in the fleet, more subs probably nuke subs and definitly more T-90s.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

bull, but india got the offer from U.S for the f-18 super hornet i dont know but heard something of a ToT with that and tata industries playing some role now if you going in with mig 35 (which is a good aircraft no doubt about it) for the mrca deal but then when you were already bieng offer the f-18 hornet with ToT, is just something doesnt sound very intelegent eighter. its just an honest opinion
thanks
on a personal note: uncle sam deserved this smack on the face from india after the way it treated pakistan with the f-16 deal.

 

[Contrarian]

bull, but india got the offer from U.S for the f-18 super hornet i dont know but heard something of a ToT with that and tata industries playing some role now if you going in with mig 35 (which is a good aircraft no doubt about it) for the mrca deal but then when you were already bieng offer the f-18 hornet with ToT, is just something doesnt sound very intelegent eighter. its just an honest opinion

Mate, F/A-18 is a good plane, but it does not offer us anything that we cannot get from anywhere else, and what we cannot put on the MiG 35's. The MiG 35's will not be an end to itself, once bought, it will then start to be evolved into something much different than what it was originally ala Su-30MKI.

The best of European, Israeli and Russian weapons and suites will be put in it. MiG 35's effectiveness will be raised exponentially with these things. We will get the AESA from Israel, or as a last resort, the Russian AESA. F/A-18 offers only AESA and US munitions like JDAM, JSOW, etc. We can get AESA, only thing is that if we dont buy F/A=18, we dont get US munitions.

Apart from that, i dont think that the entire deal is going to go with MiG 35, we will get the majority of MiG 35's and a minority of another type of planes, and i think that will be F/A-18's. Though i maybe completely wrong in my entire analysis in which case i will .

 

[aviator]

bull, but india got the offer from U.S for the f-18 super hornet i dont know but heard something of a ToT with that and tata industries playing some role now if you going in with mig 35 (which is a good aircraft no doubt about it) for the mrca deal but then when you were already bieng offer the f-18 hornet with ToT, is just something doesnt sound very intelegent eighter. its just an honest opinion
thanks
on a personal note: uncle sam deserved this smack on the face from india after the way it treated pakistan with the f-16 deal.

An F-18 Super Hornet costs about $60 million a piece and MRCA deal is for 126 aircrafts or may have been extended to upto 200. so its not feasible to have so many F-18 , it will be very costly for India. Some say that deal may be divided between 2 aircrafts , may be 126 Mig-35 and 74 F-18.