Russia and India may sign a contract for the delivery of S-400 Triumf SA-21 air defense missile

[nik141993]

Russia and India may sign a contract for the delivery of S-400 Triumf (NATO reporting name: SA-21 Growler) air defense missile systems this year, a military and diplomatic source told TASS at the Singapore Airshow 2016 on Friday, February 19, 2016.

Russian S-40 Triumf SA-21 Growler air defense missile launch unit TEL (Source Еженедельник «Военно-промышленный курьер»

"The sides are holding active negotiations. I think the contract [for the delivery of Russian-made S-400 air defense missile systems to India] will be signed in the imminent future," the source said.

"Evidently, the contract will be signed this year," the source added.

"Of course, they have a number of certain problems but this contract is realistic for India. China operates combat aircraft that can quite reach Deli. So, they need certain counteraction to these planes," the source said.

Indian media outlets said earlier that India was planning to purchase five battalions of Russian-made S-400 air defense missile systems and about 6,000 surface-to-air missiles worth nearly 6 billion dollars.

In December 2015, the Indian government has cleared the procurement of five regimental units of Russian-made S-400 Triumf advanced Air Defense Systems (NATO reporting name: SA-21 Growler) at an estimated price of $ 4.5 billion, Defense News reports.

If the S-400 deal goes through, India would become the second buyer of the advanced missile defense system after China, which will purchase four to six units, with the first S-400 system set to be delivered within the next 12 to 18 months.

The S-400 Triumph SA-21 Growler is a long range surface-to-air missile systems produced by Almaz-Antey. The S-400 Trumph is intended to engage, ECM, radar-picket, director area, reconnaissance, strategic and tactical aircraft, tactical and theatre ballistic missiles, medium-range ballistic missiles and other current and future air attack assets at a maximum range of 400 km, and a altitude of up to 30 km.

Russia and India may sign a contract for the delivery of S-400 Triumf SA-21 air defense missile TASS 11902163 | February 2016 Global Defense Security news industry | Defense Security global news industry army 2016 | Archive News year

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

 

[PARIKRAMA]

You remember I said India is negotiating and will buy it soon...

It's a good news nonetheless..

 

[nik141993]

You remember I said India is negotiating and will buy it soon...

It's a good news nonetheless..

You remember I said India is negotiating and will buy it soon...

It's a good news nonetheless..

6000 missile sound a lot any truth in that

 

[Dr Gupta]

Brilliant system!

 

[Masterhunter]

You remember I said India is negotiating and will buy it soon...

It's a good news nonetheless..

Yea... I remember.
And if it happens its one of the best decision to be taken by Modi govt this year

 

[nik141993]

You remember I said India is negotiating and will buy it soon...

It's a good news nonetheless..

Sir could you verify with your source about how much far this deal has progressed

 

[PARIKRAMA]

6000 missile sound a lot any truth in that

Sir could you verify with your source about how much far this deal has progressed

Dont Call me Sir..

It's only a part bcz we are buying first some systems off the shelf and then we will make few under MII... We will also use things under customization

These missiles also may see some production India may be via BDL tie up and perhaps also via Reliance ADAG group... ADAG group wants to build many things including missiles and will do some manufacturing of Tor units.

The number of Missile is important for one more thing.. It's shows we are looking for good number of systems..

For example back in Dec 2017 i gave one mix

Complete Information on India's Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf | Page 2

Then @Immanuel also gave another mix with Longer range missiles in the configuration

Complete Information on India's Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf | Page 2

About customization, it was gadeshi in another forum who talked about it and said things like.. I had posted it then..

Some quotes from other forum

This deal will contain localization package, TATA and some weapons producers will have a golden mine But Almaz/Antei will strictly controll the quality, so it won't be easy.

If India will go for full featured systems package, then major offsets and some TOT are quite possible:

1 - TEL and TLV Vehicles - there are rumors, that India is going to licence build of BAZ or MZKT modular heavy chassis for different purposes including mobile IRBMs. So this contract might be a good starting point for Tata to start indigenous licence-built heavy LEGO-like chassis production (imagine a profits of this).

2 - Utility and liasion vehicles on the same chassis - Tata (and a lot of subcontractors) can make mobile coommand posts (with Russian hardware installed and some Indian parts in it), mobile barracks for crews, APU/MPU power units, special purpose vehiles, etc.

3 - PDMs (anti-diversion vehicles) based on BTR-82AM chassis - can incorporate Indian millimeter-band radars, Indian
ultra-light UAVs and some equipment as well (we don't speak about customizations).

4 - Gazetchik-ME radar protection suits (1 per battery) - can be completely TOT to TATA (vehicles and towed carts) and DRDO (system parts, spares and munitions).

5 - Pantsyr S-1U/E - Missiles, 30-mm munitions, several spares can be TOTally licence produced in India, LCD monitors, crew compartment parts and chassis can be used Indian indigenous.

6 - Numerous Indian-specific and climat-determined modifications which can contain Indian parts.

7 - The others we don't know yet.

Moreover, TATA is used by default for export versions of Pantsyr-S1U and Tor-M2U.
(courtesy - gadeshi)

Complete Information on India's Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf

The deal will be through soon.. But we need the 77N6 customization which requires time for negotiations.. Thats after all part of S500 and is a HTK missile... and its one of the crown jewels of russian ABM.. So the deal may require some time..

In all probability India may in phase 2 instead of buying S400 may opt for a mix of S400 and S500 both. (Phase 1 is the purchase being discussed now)

@nik141993
Now if we talk suppose only from 5 battalion perspective then yes missile numbers look too big.. So i am of the opinion the numbers of 6000 matches for 5 regiments kind of structure..

But yes, however if its just battalions, 1 battalion with say 64 RTF and dual reloads 128 RL also its just 192 missiles and 5 battalions means 960 missiles.
5 S400 will have 5 pantsirs battalions so 5 x (72+2x72) = 1080

Thus its just 2040.. implying around 3960 missiles left

For 3960 more missiles its clear more such scope of at least 9 such battalions exist..

In simple words each of the initial bought 5 systems may get 1 or 2 additional battalions and may get converted into regiments..and multiplying the zone of coverage

OR

the new 9 battalions may be placed in scattered over multiple points across the country as deemed necessary.

 

[nik141993]

Dont Call me Sir..

It's only a part bcz we are buying first some systems off the shelf and then we will make few under MII... We will also use things under customization

These missiles also may see some production India may be via BDL tie up and perhaps also via Reliance ADAG group... ADAG group wants to build many things including missiles and will do some manufacturing of Tor units.

The number of Missile is important for one more thing.. It's shows we are looking for good number of systems..

For example back in Dec 2017 i gave one mix
View attachment 294603
Complete Information on India's Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf | Page 2

Then @Immanuel also gave another mix with Longer range missiles in the configuration

View attachment 294606
Complete Information on India's Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf | Page 2

About customization, it was gadeshi in another forum who talked about it and said things like.. I had posted it then..


Complete Information on India's Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf

The deal will be through soon.. But we need the 77N6 customization which requires time for negotiations.. Thats after all part of S500 and is a HTK missile... and its one of the crown jewels of russian ABM.. So the deal may require some time..

In all probability India may in phase 2 instead of buying S400 may opt for a mix of S400 and S500 both. (Phase 1 is the purchase being discussed now)

@nik141993
Now if we talk suppose only from 5 battalion perspective then yes missile numbers look too big.. So i am of the opinion the numbers of 6000 matches for 5 regiments kind of structure..

But yes, however if its just battalions, 1 battalion with say 64 RTF and dual reloads 128 RL also its just 192 missiles and 5 battalions means 960 missiles.
5 S400 will have 5 pantsirs battalions so 5 x (72+2x72) = 1080

Thus its just 2040.. implying around 3960 missiles left

For 3960 more missiles its clear more such scope of at least 9 such battalions exist..

In simple words each of the initial bought 5 systems may get 1 or 2 additional battalions and may get converted into regiments..and multiplying the zone of coverage

OR

the new 9 battalions may be placed in scattered over multiple points across the country as deemed necessary.

Dont Call me Sir..

It's only a part bcz we are buying first some systems off the shelf and then we will make few under MII... We will also use things under customization

These missiles also may see some production India may be via BDL tie up and perhaps also via Reliance ADAG group... ADAG group wants to build many things including missiles and will do some manufacturing of Tor units.

The number of Missile is important for one more thing.. It's shows we are looking for good number of systems..

For example back in Dec 2017 i gave one mix
View attachment 294603
Complete Information on India's Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf | Page 2

Then @Immanuel also gave another mix with Longer range missiles in the configuration

View attachment 294606
Complete Information on India's Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf | Page 2

About customization, it was gadeshi in another forum who talked about it and said things like.. I had posted it then..


Complete Information on India's Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf

The deal will be through soon.. But we need the 77N6 customization which requires time for negotiations.. Thats after all part of S500 and is a HTK missile... and its one of the crown jewels of russian ABM.. So the deal may require some time..

In all probability India may in phase 2 instead of buying S400 may opt for a mix of S400 and S500 both. (Phase 1 is the purchase being discussed now)

@nik141993
Now if we talk suppose only from 5 battalion perspective then yes missile numbers look too big.. So i am of the opinion the numbers of 6000 matches for 5 regiments kind of structure..

But yes, however if its just battalions, 1 battalion with say 64 RTF and dual reloads 128 RL also its just 192 missiles and 5 battalions means 960 missiles.
5 S400 will have 5 pantsirs battalions so 5 x (72+2x72) = 1080

Thus its just 2040.. implying around 3960 missiles left

For 3960 more missiles its clear more such scope of at least 9 such battalions exist..

In simple words each of the initial bought 5 systems may get 1 or 2 additional battalions and may get converted into regiments..and multiplying the zone of coverage

OR

the new 9 battalions may be placed in scattered over multiple points across the country as deemed necessary.

Thanks last question are we getting Nebo m VHF radar or as some report say going with Israeli EL/M-2090U ULTRA C-22 LRTR UHF or both & which one is better in your opinion

Nebo m

C 22 LRTR UHF

 

[#hydra#]

How it will perform against jamming platforms like growler & anti radiation missiles like mar1?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@nik141993
Initially it would be Nebo M and later we may integrate it with 2090.. Russia has agreed for such a customization..

The idea is to utilize the 3D Nebo M radar into our centralised ABM multi tier system which will have more radars like 2090 also feeding the command system along with real-time satellite system..

S400 is optimised for highest performance with NeboM. Nebo M in circular scan mode is able to track up to 200 aerodynamic targets at a distance and at altitudes of up to 600 kilometers. In sector scan mode, Nebo-M can track to 20 ballistic targets at ranges of up to 1,800 kilometers and at an altitude of up to 1,200 kilometers.
Nebo M is mobile whereas 2090 is massive 300 tonnes..

See this
In its basic form, the single-module ELM-2090U is being promoted as a mobile air surveillance radar with a range capability of up to 310 miles. Known as the Ultra-C1, this radar can be mounted on a truck bed and has a fully rotating pedestal.

For long-range early warning with capability against satellites, aerial targets and ballistic missiles, including the accurate estimation of launch and predicted impact points, IAI is proposing the Ultra-C6, which has six clusters. And for very long-range detection, there is the 300-metric-ton Ultra-C22 array with 22 ELM-2090U units.
IAI Unveils UHF Radar | Defense News: Aviation International News


So as you see it depends upon the structure based on number of arrays..if we want ultra long range we need 22 arrays implying more of permanent structure and Nebo being mobile helps a lot as both are complementary systems..

That's why I said both will be feeding our centralised ABM shield system.

 

[nik141993]

How it will perform against jamming platforms like growler & anti radiation missiles like mar1?

impossible for most current 4.5 th generation fighters & will be headache for 5th generation to overcome but with increasing computational power beyond 2020 the VHF & UHF will be able to engage current 5th generation platform at long distances with ease as their accuracy increase,one of the main reason US going for more stealth in 6th generation platform with tail less configuration & the radar of S 400 are out of reach of Mar 1

 

[PARIKRAMA]

How it will perform against jamming platforms like growler & anti radiation missiles like mar1?

It's not a single growler which is a threat but rather a strategy comprising of 3 growler or 2 growler and one E2D hawkeye. This strategy is used by USN..
See this


Under the NIFC-CA construct, Rear Adm. Mike Manazir, the Navy’s director of air warfare, told me in December 2013 that the service would need a minimum of two airborne EA-18Gs linked via a high-speed datalink both to each other and to a third point—a Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye—to perform a time distance of arrival analysis to precisely locate threat emitters.
With the three separate points, the Navy expects to be able to narrow down the location of multiple mobile threat emitters to a narrow enough “ellipse” as to generate a weapons quality track in real time. The tactic works best when there are three Growlers working in conjunction with each other—but an E-2D Advanced Hawkeye can substitute for one of the EA-18Gs. While the Hawkeye has an excellent electronic support measures suite, it has neither the capability of the EA-18G nor can it get as close to the threat.

The new technique is essential to the Navy’s plans to fight in a threat environment dominated by advanced integrated air defense systems that could include VHF radars better capable of tracking stealth aircraft and highly mobile double-digit surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems like the Russian–built S-400 Triumf (SA-21 Growler) or Chinese HQ-9.

Older techniques to suppress or destroy enemy air defenses relied on satellite imagery and long-range intelligence gathering aircraft to develop an order of battle for fixed enemy SAM sites. Those techniques are not effective against these newer, more mobile threats.

Revealed: U.S. Navy's Plan to Defeat Russia's Deadly S-400 | The National Interest Blog

Fortunately there is no growler like aircraft threatening India. So if you want a case specific to our threats unless they get spectra or say Himalaya kind of advanced suites as these are just below growler in capability I dont think there is any threat for such a system.

About Mar 1
The general idea of CM or ARM shooting assuming precise locations are known
is only viable where such a weapon has a sufficiently low radar signature to penetrate inside the minimum engagement range of the SAM before being detected ... Secondly in India Pakistan context the aircraft has to fly very low and has to remain undetected to come in range to fire such a ARM. Assuming Mar1 max range of 100 km it's very lo lo flight path should be max around 20-40 km.. When our radars are already inside by 150 odd kms and looking with a 600 km vision implying around 450 km inside Pakistan from border, the need of aircraft will be to transgress at least 100 km inside Indian airspace for a good chance of success for Mar1 case

And there is a high chance that a multilayer detection system will see the inbound aircraft or missile killed by a self defensive SAM shot.

Also the present S400 SAM batteries are protected by Tor M2E and Pantsir self-propelled point defence SAM systems as a rapid reaction close in defensive system. These use ultra high sensitive IR detection techniques to detect CM and ARM in their FCRs and main focus is to detect such threats.. Moreover these systems also has twin guns.. Even with high ECM and ECCM, the best case is jamming a missile not a bullet fired by a gun..so these systems are really solid and are very effective against CM and ARM.

Oh btw pantsirs can be supplemented with a additional radars.. See this

They can be supplemented by the 1RL-123E long range air search radar which can provide early warning to the entire battery. This radar can detect a 1 m² RCS target (fighter jets) at over 130 km and a 0.1 m² target (missiles) at 30 km.

The standard set has a Passive Electronically Scanning Array (PESA) S-band target acquisition radar which scans mechanically to provide 360º coverage and an X-band fire control radar (FCR). They can search and track aerial targets over 50 km away and engage them at a distance of 20 km.

Again from the same source which is
Pantsyr S1 : Russia’s deadly short range air defense system | Defencyclopedia

So these are good solid systems.. The Russian S400 and S500 are designed keeping in mind mostly US weapons.. Fortunately that kind of threat capability is not faced by India now or in near future.. So the S400 system should provide sufficient deterrance.

 

[DavidSling]

Thanks last question are we getting Nebo m VHF radar or as some report say going with Israeli EL/M-2090U ULTRA C-22 LRTR UHF or both & which one is better in your opinion

Nebo m
View attachment 294609

C 22 LRTR UHF

Israel should provide India with David Sling and Arrow systems + Terra system

 

[nik141993]

Israel should provide India with David Sling and Arrow systems + Terra system

India is already buying barak 8 & land based version is on its way which will fulfill our medium range engagement requirement & David sling comes with American tech & damn expensive so no chance

 

[GreenApple]

You remember I said India is negotiating and will buy it soon...

It's a good news nonetheless..

We were never an issue in this. We went ahead with it's procurement, but Putin threw the spanner into the well moving deal. Has those 'strings' (pak-fa , etc) sorted out?
If not, I will consider it as another Rafale deal in making....
We must learn to close the deals...no point in dominating the field if it's not converted into a goal- Indian Hockey style