Russia against developing military ties with Pakistan

[TechLahore]

I think it should be "we get what they want to give us".
Bringing the engine for jf17 into the discussion is just mere extrapolation, the fact is Pakistan cannot buy say a full fledged fighter or submarine from Russia. The statement under discussion just emphasizes this fact.

We could say that, but then we would be wrong.

Pakistan looked into obtaining the SU-27 in the 90s and there were several available options via Ukraine. The PAF did not push that deal eventually because of the long-standing preference for western platforms like the Mirage-2000 and the F-16.

On the issue of Subs, why would we go and buy a sub from Russia... a country which has not had the opportunity to invest anything at all in its Sub programme over the last 15+ years? Why would we not obtain better options available via the Europeans. Our Agosta deal included ToT. Why would we, in our right minds, pursue a Russian sub when more advanced options are available to us? And if we wanted something lower cost, Chinese subs would be present a far better alternative. The Chinese have aggressively invested in their sub platforms, unlike the Russians, and have developed boats that are now - on the whole - more modern.

Similarly, on the subject of aircraft, the PAF is incredibly resistant to Russian airplanes. The upgraded RD-93 engine is one thing, but going with a complete Russian aircraft would simply be a bridge too far for numerous reasons internal to the PAF. Again, if we were going to spend the money, why wouldn't we exercise the remaining options on Block-52s? Obtain more units of the FC-20 or look into the UAE 2000-9s? Doesn't make sense for Pakistan to operate a Russian aircraft, and if you think we are in the least bit interested in pursuing one, you are incredibly mistaken.

Since we wouldn't want a Russian jet or sub, like I said previously, we get what we need/want. Tanks, engines... that's pretty much been the extent of Russian items on our wish list.

 

[HAIDER]

Few major reason Pakistan didn't go for SU27.
Weapon bay carry on Russian made weapons, non western weapon, like French,US, British AA or AG weapon can be married with plane. Pakistan air defence is totally Westernize. Even Chinese AA weapons are copy of US AAs.
Engine maintenance after 300 hours. Need lots of training and skilled people for maintenance. Any upgrade would be ripoff. Indian paid millions for only software upgrades.
Plus Pakistan get subsidized quality weapon delivery from US.

 

[PakSher]

We do need to improve our military relations with Russia. Pakistan is the 6th largest country in the world with now close to 180 million+ people and Russia the 7th biggest with 151 million people. Military relations have improved with Pakistan buying the MI-17 helis from Russia. We need to improve our economic realtions with Russia.

 

[karan.1970]

We could say that, but then we would be wrong.

Pakistan looked into obtaining the SU-27 in the 90s and there were several available options via Ukraine. The PAF did not push that deal eventually because of the long-standing preference for western platforms like the Mirage-2000 and the F-16.

On the issue of Subs, why would we go and buy a sub from Russia... a country which has not had the opportunity to invest anything at all in its Sub programme over the last 15+ years? Why would we not obtain better options available via the Europeans. Our Agosta deal included ToT. Why would we, in our right minds, pursue a Russian sub when more advanced options are available to us? And if we wanted something lower cost, Chinese subs would be present a far better alternative. The Chinese have aggressively invested in their sub platforms, unlike the Russians, and have developed boats that are now - on the whole - more modern.

Similarly, on the subject of aircraft, the PAF is incredibly resistant to Russian airplanes. The upgraded RD-93 engine is one thing, but going with a complete Russian aircraft would simply be a bridge too far for numerous reasons internal to the PAF. Again, if we were going to spend the money, why wouldn't we exercise the remaining options on Block-52s? Obtain more units of the FC-20 or look into the UAE 2000-9s? Doesn't make sense for Pakistan to operate a Russian aircraft, and if you think we are in the least bit interested in pursuing one, you are incredibly mistaken.

Since we wouldn't want a Russian jet or sub, like I said previously, we get what we need/want. Tanks, engines... that's pretty much been the extent of Russian items on our wish list.

Am not too sure if getting what you want is as easy for Pakistan. The whole issue with F 16s is a case in point. It has almost took over 20 years for Pakistan to get what they paid for..

 

[prototype]

We do need to improve our military relations with Russia. Pakistan is the 6th largest country in the world with now close to 180 million+ people and Russia the 7th biggest with 151 million people. Military relations have improved with Pakistan buying the MI-17 helis from Russia. We need to improve our economic realtions with Russia.

india is russia's most trusted partner and a strategic ally.their is no way russians will indulge in military cooperation with pak at the rate of india

 

[ameer219]

india is russia's most trusted partner and a strategic ally.their is no way russians will indulge in military cooperation with pak at the rate of india

Sir, the ball is round, anything could happen. If USA, who treated Pakistan as a major non-NATO ally and a major ally in the war against terrorism could indulge in military cooperation with India, I see no reason why Russia would not be able to do the same.

Furthermore Russia has provided helicopters and RD-93 engines to Pakistan. They even offered Pakistan Su-27 during the 90's.

They probably would not indulge in doing join cooperation like how Pakistan is with China, but I am sure they would sell some of their items.

 

[monitor]

china and India are two competitor in this region and future super power .if though Russia consider itself a strategic ally of India and long term provider of weapons to India can sell SU-30mkk to china and provide other military assistance then why not Pakistan, which does not have the possibility to become super power and not want to be in arms race with India, like India and china doing .if Russia start selling weapons it would be increase its client and increase revenue from selling arms whats the problem ?

 

[deckingraj]

china and India are two competitor in this region and future super power .if though Russia consider itself a strategic ally of India and long term provider of weapons to India can sell SU-30mkk to china and provide other military assistance then why not Pakistan, which does not have the possibility to become super power and not want to be in arms race with India, like India and china doing .if Russia start selling weapons it would be increase its client and increase revenue from selling arms whats the problem ?

No buddy...its do not work like this...I wont even talk about strategic relations between India and Russia..I will talk on pure economics...It sucks but truth is money talks...Russia needs hard cash and they had no option but to sell even though they knew about Chinese copying stuff....However when it comes to Pakistan it is not a big market to invest thereby alienating India and risk those billions...especially at the time when Indian economy is going upgrade and they have alternate options available in Israel-Europe and now US...

We all talk about ruskies allowing China to sell RD-93 engine to Pakistan but we forgot that it was earlier blocked under Indian pressure...Later on it was allowed however what could be the possible reasons??? Keeping my above explanation on economical basis just ponder over my question and share your thoughts...

 

[prototype]

Sir, the ball is round, anything could happen. If USA, who treated Pakistan as a major non-NATO ally and a major ally in the war against terrorism could indulge in military cooperation with India, I see no reason why Russia would not be able to do the same.

Furthermore Russia has provided helicopters and RD-93 engines to Pakistan. They even offered Pakistan Su-27 during the 90's.

They probably would not indulge in doing join cooperation like how Pakistan is with China, but I am sure they would sell some of their items.

sir it can b also said in an another way

its the lure of money that is money that is attracting u.s.a to india.
remember india is 1 of the biggest defence spender in the world and most of the weapons r imported,they cannot ignore such a big market

now the question is can russia afford to loose such an ally and market in favour of pakistan only because india's relation is growing with american's

 

[TechLahore]

Am not too sure if getting what you want is as easy for Pakistan. The whole issue with F 16s is a case in point. It has almost took over 20 years for Pakistan to get what they paid for..

I don't see how this is relevant to the context of the thread... we were discussing Pakistan wanting very limited Russian technology and finding avenues to obtain it without Russia getting in the way. How is the F-16 issue related at all to the above?

 

[PakiPashtun]

This is good news, We need to be more close with Russia.

 

[ameer219]

sir it can b also said in an another way

its the lure of money that is money that is attracting u.s.a to india.
remember india is 1 of the biggest defence spender in the world and most of the weapons r imported,they cannot ignore such a big market

now the question is can russia afford to loose such an ally and market in favour of pakistan only because india's relation is growing with american's

Sir, I agree sir, but even if India has a bigger market, it does not mean Russia would not be able to do trade with other countries, and just depending totally on India right? I am sure countries won't do trade based on emotions all the time. Like how Russia indirectly sold Pakistan JF-17 engines, despite Pakistan mostly responsible for the defeat of Russia in the Afghan war.

Furthmore Sir, I am not totally speculating that Russia will totally give up trade with India, just because it is getting closer to USA. That will probably never happen cos I believe their relations are very strong and they have actually indulge in military projects and co operations such as "PAK-FA" and "Brahmos"

What I am suggesting is that, Russia will definitely sell some items to Pakistan, most probably indirectly. As I have shown you some examples like the engines and helos.

 

[Darth Vader]

yes you had.... do you expect something from someone for whom you were responsible for disintegration...

And the irony is you already are against west...

So remains china........... stick with them till we dont resolve indo chinese issues.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend


My dear its not 19 century where u fight alone with 1 country now its grp of countries soo every 1 want to keep some cards in hand why make a enemy when u can make him friend

now i can bet how much US and india gets closer same goes for Pakistan and Russia

cz dont forget their is also a middle guy in here China which is helping Pakistan in every condition and supported us not for money unlike other countries so china is trying their best to get Pakistan in middle between china and Russia in near future u will gone see indian will be less dependent on russia and that time will be game changer

 

[atulya]

i think. if pakistan seek to buy 200 mig 35 then the statement would be different, but fortunately this is not gonna happen, our best friend was communist soviet union and russia is our friend....

 

[xyxmt]

Hahaha.. I know buddy and i am not excited either...I was just trying to solve the puzzle....We all know there were some level of noise in New delhi and Ruskies due to Gorkshov and India's new proximity to US...This was attributed to one of the reason of ruskies lifting sanctions against selling RD-93 to Pak... Now that New Delhi and Moscow have managed to put everything under the carpet this specific news catched my attention...

Anyways 3 idiots is a nice movie and really liked the line "ALL IS WELL"

We hope everything goes well between Russian and Indians, We like it that way, status quo should not be messed with, you do not understand western technology and we dont understand russian.