Rs 25k cr Tejas won’t be ready before 2015

[tvsram1992]

2020 deadline for the Tejas by yourself tells you what ? ... Of course countries will start having the first 5th Generation squadrons by then ... Well again , there is no " we " here , it is just you ... So sorry

It tells that we wont induct cheap planes by giving indigenous tag or rush into jv to produce low quality weapons . Look im not bringing any country here , you dont take in wrong way . I mean we didnt go for JV with Russia to produce low quality plane or take engine from them despite we had an option . Our JV is for PAKFA which is a plane of high quality . The most of the countries include India too We get PAKFA by 2020 . By that time we would have mastered production of Mk1 , got experience in making a 4++ gen aircraft from scratch , experience in manufacturing Mkis,Rafales in India which would make the way for AMCA easier . We can see AMCA operational by 2030 . When i ask some thing , you are just skipping that and concentrating on failures . That shows your escapism and ignorance . No offence .

Also we will get some experience being a part of FGFA .

 

[Sergi]

Do wait ... " I will reply " What is stopping you now ?

I have seen almost all your daily flight log and IOC-2 things ... Let me just say that your aircraft will be first in the world to get a second IOC ... I am interested in discussing but can I If the other person starts to lie blatantly by claiming that 2015 deadline if for 2015 when in reality it is for first Tejas ? Or thinks that a project is only a failure if all the other adversaries have next Generation tech by the time it rolls out ?

For Bolded part: exactly any day evenif 2020 LCA comes out and it has to fight some cheap 3.5/4/4.5 gen AC then it isn't a failure , is it ???
It is failure if it has to fight against 5th Gen. Is that that heavy for you ???
For rest of your point : really I think I will try it Oscar way this time
If you would have really seen the link then you would have understand but .....
One more think Indian Nation Congress prints LCA Mark-1 inducted in their report card 2 months ago. So be sure LCA will in IAF this Dec

 

[SpArK]

The discussion was never about the 5th Gen scenario in the first place ... Do you tie your success of the Tejas aircraft to the buying of foreign aircraft or parallel programmes ?

Appreciated ...

Its not a competition on completing a fighter jet in time.. its about the need.

IAF and India wants a fighter thats well developed when its inducted.

You guys just repeating.. ohh its not complete .. its been long years... US is doing it.. france does it.. our mvuaah mvuaah China does it, but silly India cant do it...

Well we dont mind the delay, our plans are well laid. Once Mk-1 starts flying the next batch of mk-2 would come fast with the completion of home grown AESA, maybe a 2 years late than EFT which had the consortium of 4 nation with ample experience in making fighter jets but still not fully equipped with A2G and AESA.

But EU doesnt have Pakistan like neighbours who comes up with arguments like "hey look Rafale got Aesa not you hahah """ like arguments..

So overall these Tejas threads are funny as hell.

 

[kṣamā]

No , you didn't understand my post ... Your AF is asking for more than what the manufacturers of Tejas can deliver at the moment trying to make their first aircraft battle-worthy ...

This is where you are mistaken, DRDO wants to cut to deliver a quality products at the first go. Quite naturally one will get a bloody nose if one gets in a ring with a champion boxer. But the returns one gets if he wins are quite yielding. Similarly IAF asked DRDO to produce a homegrown fighter with the features of a modern fighter, DRDO made a basic outline. But the technology induction in IAF was too much to Handel by DRDO to match. But even then it did present a platter with almost comparable technologies. Now DRDO and other Indian firms have to race against time to obtain the same level of expertise of EC, Russia and US in their respective fields to field the resultant.

Tejas Mk1 is facing turbulent waters bcoz it has to perform on the standards set by world leaders of the same class. And again to remember it is done by a country in is its first try. DRDO made a turbine engine in a country which could not create car engines at that time. I am not ranting that India is poor so blah blah .... Instead I am saying we are humble, we are still learning, we will take some time but by the time we finish we will have the best.

 

[Secur]

It tells that we wont induct cheap planes by giving indigenous tag or rush into jv to produce low quality weapons . Look im not bringing any country here , you dont take in wrong way . I mean we didnt go for JV with Russia to produce low quality plane or take engine from them despite we had an option . Our JV is for PAKFA which is a plane of high quality . The most of the countries include India too We get PAKFA by 2020 . By that time we would have mastered production of Mk1 , got experience in making a 4++ gen aircraft from scratch , experience in manufacturing Mkis,Rafales in India which would make the way for AMCA easier . We can see AMCA operational by 2030 . When i ask some thing , you are just skipping that and concentrating on failures . That shows your escapism and ignorance . No offence .

Also we will get some experience being a part of FGFA .

Really ? You seriously think there's no need to rush even after three decades ? Every AF even that of the mighty US of A has to make some compromises ... No one lives in Utopia here ... Every country's AF keeps ground realities in mind ... What is that is preventing the IAF from doing so ? Of course HAL cant get the Tejas in the air if the requirements are being revised on a monthly basis ... Well , you specifically named countries with the intention to troll so no need to act innocent here ... Russia has a great second to none aviation industry and by no means develops cheap low quality planes ... Sorry ! ... Mate , do you know that it isn't the first time that India is building an aircraft at home ? You have been doing JV's long before that ... Where's all that experience then ?

At the moment , 5th Gen fighters do not interest me much ... Yes , even India but again you aren't going to fight against yourself right ? ... It is interesting however to see that majority of the Indians tie the success of their indigenous program with buying of foreign weapons ... All that things will have no affect on the success of LCA ... You may have achieved something at large but if not inducted in time , Tejas will still be a failure ... No , I am not skipping ... Had you tried to debate properly , I would have answered ... But what to do when the other person is more interested in dragging unrelated things ?

 

[Windjammer]

It tells that we wont induct cheap planes by giving indigenous tag or rush into jv to produce low quality weapons . Look im not bringing any country here , you dont take in wrong way . I mean we didnt go for JV with Russia to produce low quality plane or take engine from them despite we had an option . Our JV is for PAKFA which is a plane of high quality . The most of the countries include India too We get PAKFA by 2020 . By that time we would have mastered production of Mk1 , got experience in making a 4++ gen aircraft from scratch , experience in manufacturing Mkis,Rafales in India which would make the way for AMCA easier . We can see AMCA operational by 2030 . When i ask some thing , you are just skipping that and concentrating on failures . That shows your escapism and ignorance . No offence .

Also we will get some experience being a part of FGFA .

For the highlighted part, despite the excuse, one wonders which countries have indulged in a rush to develop as you say low quality weapons....European consortium with the EF Typhoon or may be the JF-17.
It may astonish you that in some aviation circles, the super duper PAK- FA, is now just termed as, Follow up Flanker. !!

 

[Secur]

This is where you are mistaken, DRDO wants to cut to deliver a quality products at the first go. Quite naturally one will get a bloody nose if one gets in a ring with a champion boxer. But the returns one gets if he wins are quite yielding. Similarly IAF asked DRDO to produce a homegrown fighter with the features of a modern fighter, DRDO made a basic outline.But the technology induction in IAF was too much to Handel by DRDO to match. But even then it did present a platter with almost comparable technologies

We want too many things but in the end we have to make compromises ... What use is a fighter that cant serve its country , friend ? You admit the problem yourself , the same which I have been telling you guys all along ...

Its not a competition on completing a fighter jet in time.. its about the need.

But EU doesnt have Pakistan like neighbours who comes up with arguments like "hey look Rafale got Aesa not you hahah """ like arguments..

Actually , when 30 years have passed , yes it is ... When the engine program for the same fighter has failed recently , yes it is ... I am talking specifically about Tejas ... Yes it is about need , but is the need for Mig 21 replacement soon not there ?

C'mon Spark we seriously aren't comparing EU with South Asia , are we ?

 

[rohailmalhi]

Damn it still remains the paper plane then.........................

 

[Storm Force]

Secur

TEJAS has been delayed and IAF have and will have to make comprises as a result .

THESE are and include

Upgrading 125 mig21 BISONS to run until 2017 ( A FIGHTER that belongs to the 1970S) ERA

MMRCA order for 126 FIGHTERS to revent a fall in sqd nos to less 30 from 39 in 1990


BUT regardless of the delays THE TEJAS story has laid great foundation for FUTURE fighter indengious programmes like AMCA or realitically TEJAS mk2 in the near future.

THE wind tunnels, developers, scitentists and engineers are there in place to try new projects.

A LOT OF WASTE AND DELAYS but ultimately IAF will build indengious fighters in the future FOR SURE thanks to TEJAS ground work

 

[kṣamā]

We want too many things but in the end we have to make compromises ... What use is a fighter that cant serve its country , friend ? You admit the problem yourself , the same which I have been telling you guys all along ...

Sir the next few lines of my post which wr not not quoted are providing you with the reason DRDO is still adamant on getting the thing done by itself. You should not cherry pick my lines.

 

[Secur]

Secur

TEJAS has been delayed and IAF have and will have to make comprises as a result .
BUT regardless of the delays THE TEJAS story has laid great foundation for FUTURE fighter indengious programmes like AMCA or realitically TEJAS mk2 in the near future.THE wind tunnels, developers, scitentists and engineers are there in place to try new projects.
A LOT OF WASTE AND DELAYS but ultimately IAF will build indengious fighters in the future FOR SURE thanks to TEJAS ground work

Wouldn't it have been good if some compromises were made on LCA's requirements instead of trying to upgrade 70's airframe ?

No one denies that ... and still there's no guarantee that Mark 2 or AMCA will be delivered on time ...

Sir the next few lines of my post which wr not not quoted are providing you with the reason DRDO is still adamant on getting the thing done by itself. You should not cherry pick my lines.

I know you are adamant , but as i said every country has to make some compromises ... You admitted that the task was too much for HAL and then went on why it was too much for the first indigenous program ... Where have i cherry picked then ...

Check your post , again ...

Now DRDO and other Indian firms have to race against time to obtain the same level of expertise of EC, Russia and US in their respective fields to field the resultant.Tejas Mk1 is facing turbulent waters bcoz it has to perform on the standards set by world leaders of the same class.

 

[Bobby]

Tejas and JF17 both are Birbal ki khichadi

Only difference is Pakistan was ready to eat half cooked khichadi ....and India is waiting to get it cooked completely....both is waste.....

 

[kṣamā]

@Secur: When you say that development of indigenous a/c has nothing to do with foreign a/c acquired, then you must know that the "monthly revised update" are due to these foreign a/c and avionics.

People repeatedly say "why not JV ?? You did it b4 , hwy not now??" Well In JV one dose not deal with the entire design and manufacturing process, that is from plan-to-plane. India needed a first hand experience in developing one. When you are new in the game of playing with fire you will burn yourself. And DRDO works on the motto "What dose not kills you makes you stronger". Though I am exaggerating a bit here but u get the drift.

Here in India we dinn had a aviation culture, Tejas brought one. Though for wrong reasons, but it brought. Now round the country ppl (universities and flying enthusiast) are trying to know what is making it delay. This may not mark a big tick on ur books but it is on mine. We do not want a 4th/5th gen a/c from outside which we know less of but we need a 3rd/4th gen a/c for which ppl want to know and get to know in entity.

I know you are adamant , but as i said every country has to make some compromises ... You admitted that the task was too much for HAL and then went on why it was too much for the first indigenous program ... Where have i cherry picked then ...

So what ? Abandon the project and start for a project with striped down configuration ?? I prefer solve the current level of difficulty than to tone it down. Sir the more one tones down a difficulty more harder it becomes to overcome the initial problem. Sure one would be able to clear the revised problem but what purpose will the revised solution serve, when we specifically want the greater problem to be solved.

 

[Secur]

@Secur: When you say that development of indigenous a/c has nothing to do with foreign a/c acquired, then you must know that the "monthly revised update" are due to these foreign a/c and avionics.

People repeatedly say "why not JV ?? You did it b4 , hwy not now??" Well In JV one dose not deal with the entire design and manufacturing process, that is from plan-to-plane. India needed a first hand experience in developing one. When you are new in the game of playing with fire you will burn yourself. And DRDO works on the motto "What dose not kills you makes you stronger". Though I am exaggerating a bit here but u get the drift.

Here in India we dinn had a aviation culture, Tejas brought one. Though for wrong reasons, but it brought. Now round the country ppl (universities and flying enthusiast) are trying to know what is making it delay. This may not mark a big tick on ur books but it is on mine. We do not want a 4th/5th gen a/c from outside which we know less of but we need a 3rd/4th gen a/c for which ppl want to know and get to know in entity.

Yes it doesn't have , you must know how long those countries with strong industrial base have been developing aircrafts , something which you cant do in one go ... Can you ? Either compromise and get the currently available version which is sufficient or bear delays while the world moves ahead and or you are only focusing on a single project !

I know but still one does learns something from JV's , does he ? Or else what is the need for a JV when you can just buy it off the shelves ? Yeah , India developed one ... The thing " What is stopping it from inducting it ? " ... Sorry DRDO doesn't exactly have a very good reputation to have a motto like that ... There's been too much delays by the company ...

I may have misunderstood but you are advertising the very project some " poster boy sort of thing " and not a defense need ...

So what ? Abandon the project and start for a project with striped down configuration ?? I prefer solve the current level of difficulty than to tone it down. Sir the more one tones down a difficulty more harder it becomes to overcome the initial problem. Sure one would be able to clear the revised problem but what purpose will the revised solution serve, when we specifically want the greater problem to be solved.

Nay , no one asking you to abandon it ... Go for the features you want in another blocks ... This is the standard operating procedures for AF's around the world ... Revising the requirements again and again will make it almost impossible to catch up for HAL ...

 

[tvsram1992]

Really ? You seriously think there's no need to rush even after three decades ? Every AF even that of the mighty US of A has to make some compromises ... No one lives in Utopia here ... Every country's AF keeps ground realities in mind ... What is that is preventing the IAF from doing so ? Of course HAL cant get the Tejas in the air if the requirements are being revised on a monthly basis ... Well , you specifically named countries with the intention to troll so no need to act innocent here ... Russia has a great second to none aviation industry and by no means develops cheap low quality planes ... Sorry ! ... Mate , do you know that it isn't the first time that India is building an aircraft at home ? You have been doing JV's long before that ... Where's all that experience then ?

At the moment , 5th Gen fighters do not interest me much ... Yes , even India but again you aren't going to fight against yourself right ? ... It is interesting however to see that majority of the Indians tie the success of their indigenous program with buying of foreign weapons ... All that things will have no affect on the success of LCA ... You may have achieved something at large but if not inducted in time , Tejas will still be a failure ... No , I am not skipping ... Had you tried to debate properly , I would have answered ... But what to do when the other person is more interested in dragging unrelated things ?

Then what do you think MRCA is there for ? Since we started indigenous aircraft program , we would finish it even if it gets delayed by 10 years . You want to leave and go for JV to make a cheap aircraft like Tejas too ? If we go for JV all the work we did till now would have no meaning other than saying that we got some experience . SO there is no point in making JV for cheap aircrafts . To fill the gap , we upgraded Mig21,Mig29,Mirage and are buying additional Mkis and Rafales .
Heck i dont want your certificate on my innocence . Your are burning because it hurt you We could have made a JV with Russia but for that we should give up our Tejas . Instead of making a cheap 4th gen aircraft with Russia we directly went for JV on 5th gen fighter for which we dont need to compromise on Tejas

Please dont show your ignorance here , when did we have JV with Russia on aircraft project ?

It doesnt matter if 5th gen aircrafts are in your interest or not We never termed buying foreign equipment as indigenous credit , but what we say is even if it is not indigenous , it wont matter because they work if used in war . You need to get digest that fact instead of saying that is not indigenous ... blah .. blah Considering most of countries didnt make an indigenous aircraft , would you consider it as failure ? Its pretty clear you skipped my points and just stuck on points which you can reply and quoted them only . Now dont try to act smart .