Roman Empire vs Han Empire

[Audio]

The wikiversity link is full of nonsense ie for iron output Wagner even states that his guesstimates were not to be taken at face value as recent research in mainland China have shown that there were more existing sites than previously believed.

True, but consider this, even if his guestimates were ten times off, it still doesn't bring you near the iron output tonnage.
Furthermore, the reasons for this, which i'm surprised a user with a name of Grand Historian doesn't even mention Han used furnaces, which required a large footprint ie, lots of start up capital, lots of workers, large infrastructure, which all meant that only the richest could afford a blast furnace. That is, until the court monopolized it completely.
Now this had its pluses, ie standardization, serial manufacture, but just by it's nature, it could not have yielded so much metal as the number of sites were not that big, due to costs and government interference. In comparison, a bloomery could be constructed in every village....

 

[Grand Historian]

True, but consider this, even if his guestimates were ten times off, it still doesn't bring you near the iron output tonnage.
Furthermore, the reasons for this, which i'm surprised a user with a name of Grand Historian doesn't even mention Han used furnaces, which required a large footprint ie, lots of start up capital, lots of workers, large infrastructure, which all meant that only the richest could afford a blast furnace. That is, until the court monopolized it completely.
Now this had its pluses, ie standardization, serial manufacture, but just by it's nature, it could not have yielded so much metal as the number of sites were not that big, due to costs and government interference. In comparison, a bloomery could be constructed in every village....

There's research from mainland China that supercedes Wagner,as well as the the nature of their estimates.

You fail to realize that the "statistics" quoted by the wiki are crude estimates of Western Han sites which are derived from Joseph Needham's estimates.


Needham specfically states that "Obviously it would not be wise to lend much credence to these figure,but perhaps it gives a feel for the general scale of Han iron products" showing that he has nothing concrete to pin the 5000 tons on.

From Mei Houwang of CHF:
Metal Production Figures? - Page 4 - Han - China History Forum, Chinese History Forum

------------------------------Wagner/Needham's inputed value-------------------Wagner/Needham's supported value
annual furnace production--------------100 tons------------------------------------"several hundred tons"
Furnaces per iron office---------------------1----------------------------------------------3 to 4
number of iron offices-----------------------50----------------------------------------------49
resulting annual production---------100*1*50=5000 tons/year------------------300*3*49=44,100 tonnes per year

Which makes the figure only applicable for Han Wudi's reign of the Western Han which is hardly representative of the Han dynasty.(ie modern day revisions of ancient censuses have shown that there was only 30-32 million people during his time while under Han Huandi the population rose to 70-80 million.)

 

[BoQ77]

Basically Roman created the most modern form of government. Surprisingly !!!

They laid down a legal code that forms the basis of most western legal codes

 

[jammersat]

Muscularity does not predispose to victory. If it were so, then Goliath (Ǧālūt) should have defeated the Prophet David (Dawud). However, David (Dawud) was victorious over Goliath (Ǧālūt) , and Israel laid waste to the Army of the Philistines.

Have you heard about the story of hadasa too:

Israelis went up to the top of a mountain when they saw roman ships and they commited mass suicide to avoid being captured by romans , that's a true story , probably more so than that of Goliath and David , i'm not making it up , you can look it up

 

[jammersat]

Basically Roman created the most modern form of government. Surprisingly !!!

an empire?

 

[Aepsilons]

Have you heard about the story of hadasa too:

Israelis went up to the top of a mountain when they saw roman ships and they commited mass suicide to avoid being captured by romans , that's a true story , probably more so than that of Goliath and David , i'm not making it up , you can look it up

I think you're referring to the Hebrew stronghold in Masada. Yes, the defenders opted for mass suicide to deny the Romans their final victory.

 

[jammersat]

I think you're referring to the Hebrew stronghold in Masada. Yes, the defenders opted for mass suicide to deny the Romans their final victory.

you are right , i made a syntax error , but i guess the romans had their final vicotry nevertheless

 

[Aepsilons]

you are right , i made a syntax error , but i guess the romans had their final vicotry nevertheless

The Roman Empire fought three wars with the Judean Kingdom, to be exact. The first one was the 1st Jewish-Roman War, then a second one known as the Kitos War, the last one was the Bar Kokhba Revolt. Throughout these wars, the Roman Army had to utilize massive resources. During the 1st Roman-Judean War, Rome literally had to mobilize 5 Legions, up to 60,000 soldiers against Judea. It is estimated that during the 1st War with Judea, alone, Rome had suffered 20,000 casualties; 3 legions were annihilated in that war.

During the last war, the Bar Kokhba Revolt, Roman Army had to amass 12 legions , up to 120,000 soldiers to put down the Rebellion in Provincia Judea. The Hebrews mobilized a resistance force of up to 300,000. The result was a Roman victory, but a severe one at that. The Romans had massive casualties.

 

[BoQ77]

an empire?

A republic.
Do you hear about Roman Constitution ? Roman Republic ? Senate of Roman ?

 

[Aepsilons]

A republic

True, but the Republic did not last. Rome eventually became an Empire, under the rule of an all-powerful Emperor.

 

[BoQ77]

USA still based on that form partially. That means the republic last.
That's why US paid much attention to Greek-Roman field.

 

[cnleio]

Han Empire's bronze and bluestone armor

bronze armor debris

 

[Aepsilons]

USA still based on that form partially. That means the republic last.
That's why US paid much attention to Greek-Roman field.

Agreed. The United States is based on the Representative , Participatory Republican form.

 

[cnleio]

bluestone armor

 

[Aepsilons]

bluestone armor

View attachment 159619 View attachment 159620 View attachment 159621

Was this actual battle armor or was it for ceremonial purposes?