RND: Erdogan becomes a danger to NATO

[Damir877]

Didn't you know about that stuff they had printed back then? Or about their trash songs? Or that they went far ahead claiming everything is "Makedonski"?

Didn't we already went through all of this?Only a few idiots in Macedonia were pushing that narrative it was never official policy.
That is like me saying Greek soldiers who singed about drinking other people's blood represent official stance of Greek government.

I gave you a article from the Нова Македонија at 1946 , that published in Skopje, the writer was the Димитър Влахов, a known IMRO Bulgarian that transform as IMRO Slavmacedonian in Communist Tito's Yugoslavia.

Quite simply, I proved to you that what you said is not true.

What exactly are you imagining you proved now?Foinikas said that Macedonia provoked Greece by erecting statues in Skopje in 2009,while I responded that that was a reaction to Greek illegal veto of Macedonia joining NATO in 2008,which suspended all UN backed agreements between the two countries.
The only thing you have proven is that you have trouble comprehending.
By the way there is no such thing as "Slavmacedonian" the majority nation in North Macedonia is called Macedonian.

 

[Damir877]

You are overplaying the importance of Greece and underplaying the importance of Turkey.

Remember NATO intervention in Yugoslavia 1999?Greece was the only member of NATO that didn't want to take part in it yet no one said a word about it.The mere fact that no one cared whether Greece takes part in the largest NATO operation till then or not shows you exactly how important and vital they are considered by NATO.
It also showed their loyalty to NATO,they would rather side with dictatorial regime committing genocide then with those whose allies they pretend to be.

 

[Foinikas]

Didn't we already went through all of this?Only a few idiots in Macedonia were pushing that narrative it was never official policy.

It didn't really seem like "only a few idiots"...if that was the case,we wouldn't have had such big problems concerning the name,since 1991.

By the way there is no such thing as "Slavmacedonian" the majority nation in North Macedonia is called Macedonian.

If I call myself a Frenchman,am I French? Slavmacedonians is actually a mild name for them. They are Slavs after all. So what about you,are you actually a Croat from Bosnia?

The mere fact that no one cared whether Greece takes part in the largest NATO operation till then or not shows you exactly how important and vital they are considered by NATO.

Why would they care when they had bases in nearby Italy,Germany and aircraft carriers in the Adriatic?

It also showed their loyalty to NATO,they would rather side with dictatorial regime committing genocide then with those whose allies they pretend to be.

For us it wasn't a "dictatorial" regime and definitely not "genocidal". Besides, I don't see you complaining that Turkey has been going against NATO and closing deals with Russia,ever since the beginning of the war in Ukraine.

 

[Damir877]

It didn't really seem like "only a few idiots"...if that was the case,we wouldn't have had such big problems concerning the name,since 1991.

The only reason you had problem with them is because you wanted to split their territory with your Serb buddies.You sure did not dwell on the issue while Yugoslavia existed,nor did you objected to the term "Macedonians' being used as an ethnic group till 1991.It was only when Yugoslava fell apart you remembered you have issues with them,mainly because they are much smaller and were without army.
Or as Takis Mihas said
"Greek politicians insisted on the name change, although they were aware that it means giving up the most important symbol of the collective identity of the majority population, and as such, the requirement could not be met by Macedonian politicians."
If behind these plans was hiding the plans for territorial conquest with "brotherly" Serbia, today Mitsotakis' strategic plan to destabilize Macedonia remained valid for all Greek governments after him.

If I call myself a Frenchman,am I French? Slavmacedonians is actually a mild name for them. They are Slavs after all. So what about you,are you actually a Croat from Bosnia?

Well in that case I have bad news for you.Not only the call themselves Macedonians but the whole world calls them that as well.Even you ex PM Tsipras signed agreement(Prespa,2018) which says their nation is internationally known as Macedonian.
What about me?You already figured out that i am a VMRO agent you know that we are not allowed to give such personal information.Otherwise VMRO won't buy me a new car.

Why would they care when they had bases in nearby Italy,Germany and aircraft carriers in the Adriatic?

I didn't say NATO cared they actually didn't,which showed the great importance Greece has for the operations by the alliance.

For us it wasn't a "dictatorial" regime and definitely not "genocidal". Besides, I don't see you complaining that Turkey has been going against NATO and closing deals with Russia,ever since the beginning of the war in Ukraine.

For you he was more of an ally ever since 1991.But for most other countries as well as NATO he was a dictator and a war criminal.
Turkey for all of their cooperation with Russia still helped Ukraine's defense far,far more then Greece.

 

[Foinikas]

The only reason you had problem with them is because you wanted to split their territory with your Serb buddies.

No we didn't ffs

You sure did not dwell on the issue while Yugoslavia existed,nor did you objected to the term "Macedonians' being used as an ethnic group till 1991

It was the "Socialist Republic of Makedonija",it was the Cold War. We didn't like it of course. But after 1991,when they became independent and took the Star of Vergina as their emblem and started claiming everything,as an independent nation...that changed things. Also,on this specific subject:

Check 2:55 onwards (well all of it if you want)

Or as Takis Mihas said
"Greek politicians insisted on the name change, although they were aware that it means giving up the most important symbol of the collective identity of the majority population, and as such, the requirement could not be met by Macedonian politicians."

Understand that this guy is a leftist nobody journalist. I told you in a previous post,you didn't want to take it into consideration.

If behind these plans was hiding the plans for territorial conquest with "brotherly" Serbia, today Mitsotakis' strategic plan to destabilize Macedonia remained valid for all Greek governments after him.

Nonsense that you keep repeating. Rumors and ifs that the Greek side would always reject. Even the confederation proposal was not taken very seriously in the Greek parliament and it was considered unrealistic by Mitsotsakis,who refused.

Whell in that case I have bed news for you.Not only the call themselves Macedonians but the whole world calls them that as well.Even you ex PM Tsipras signed agreement(Prespa,2018) which says their nation is internationally known as Macedonian.

No shit Sherlock! That's the whole problem and that's why we're here talking about it. Tsipras's party is called COALITION OF RADICAL LEFT. Does that ring any bells to you? They'd sell half the country if they could.

What about me?You already figured out that i am a VMRO agent you know that we are not allowed to give such personal information.Otherwise VMRO won't buy me a new car.

Well then,prove me wrong. What's the deal with you?

 

[Damir877]

No we didn't ffs

I don't think so.

It was the "Socialist Republic of Makedonija",it was the Cold War. We didn't like it of course. But after 1991,when they became independent and took the Star of Vergina as their emblem and started claiming everything,as an independent nation...that changed things.

So when they had entire Yugoslavia behind them you "didn't like it" but were quiet.Once they were alone and with no protection you started bulling them?

Understand that this guy is a leftist nobody journalist. I told you in a previous post,you didn't want to take it into consideration.

According to you.No offense but i don't find you like very credible source of information.Nothing personal.

Nonsense that you keep repeating. Rumors and ifs that the Greek side would always reject. Even the confederation proposal was not taken very seriously in the Greek parliament and it was considered unrealistic by Mitsotsakis,who refused.

Not just me,Greek journalists,politicians and presidents of Bulgaria,Macedonia and Turkey as well.

No shit Sherlock! That's the whole problem and that's why we're here talking about it. Tsipras's party is called COALITION OF RADICAL LEFT. Does that ring any bells to you? They'd sell half the country if they could.

How is that my problem?He was the leader of your country signing agreements on behalf of your country.As long as that agreement is valid the position of Greece is that Macedonian nation exists.Bring some patriot to power and suspend the agreement.

Well then,prove me wrong.

Nah I am kind of having more fun like this.

 

[Foinikas]

So when they had entire Yugoslavia behind them you "didn't like it" but were quiet.Once they were alone and with no protection you started bulling them?

"In 1946 the People's Republic of Macedonia was recognized by the new communist constitution as a federal component of the newly proclaimed Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia under the leadership of Josip Broz Tito. The issue of the republic's name immediately sparked controversy with Greece over Greek concerns that it presaged a territorial claim on the Greek coastal region of Macedonia. The U.S. Roosevelt administration expressed the same concern through Edward Stettinius in 1944.[20] The Greek press and the Greek government of Andreas Papandreou continued to express the above concerns confronting the views of Yugoslavia[21] during the 1980s and until the Revolutions of 1989."

I don't think so.

Then cut the bullshit and prove it.

According to you.No offense but i don't find you like very credible source of information.Nothing personal.

Ask Akritas then. Come live in Greece,see if you can easily identify him as a credible and famous "journalist".

Not just me,Greek journalists,politicians and presidents of Bulgaria,Macedonia and Turkey as well.

President of FYROM and Turkey....and some obscure leftist homosexual journalists...hmm funny how you present yourself as a credible source.

How is that a my problem?He was the leader of your country signing agreements on behalf of your country.As long as that agreement is valid the position of Greece is that Macedonian nation exists.Bring some patriot to power and suspend the agreement.

The agreement talked about renaming the country and the nationality into "Severna Makedonija",not just "Makedonija".

Specifically:

"The agreement provides that the Republic of Macedonia takes the name of Republic of North Macedonia (Macedonian: Република Северна Македонија, romanized: Republika Severna Makedonija; Greek: Δημοκρατία της Βόρειας Μακεδονίας[5]). This new name is to be used for all purposes (erga omnes), that is, domestically, in all bilateral relations and in all regional and international organizations and institutions.[6][7]

The deal includes recognition of the Macedonian language in the United Nations, noting that it is within the group of South Slavic languages, and that the citizenship of the country will be called Macedonian/citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia. Also, there is an explicit clarification that the citizens of the country are not related to ancient Hellenic civilization that previously inhabited the northern regions of Greece.[8][9] Specifically, Article 7 mentions that both countries acknowledge that their respective understanding of the terms "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" refers to a different historical context and cultural heritage.[6] When reference is made to Greece, these terms denote the area and people of its northern region, as well as the Hellenic civilization, history and culture of that region. When reference is made to the Republic of North Macedonia, these terms denote its territory, language and people, with their own, distinctly different, history and culture.[6]

Additionally, the agreement stipulates the removal of the Vergina Sun from public use in the Republic of North Macedonia and the formation of a committee for the review of school textbooks and maps in both countries for the removal of irredentist content and to align them with UNESCO and Council of Europe standards.[10]"

But how much of all that is actually followed in the country? Not much.

Nah I am kind of having more fun like this.

Ah so you're ashamed of your nationality,I didn't know.

 

[Damir877]

"In 1946 the People's Republic of Macedonia was recognized by the new communist constitution as a federal component of the newly proclaimed Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia under the leadership of Josip Broz Tito. The issue of the republic's name immediately sparked controversy with Greece over Greek concerns that it presaged a territorial claim on the Greek coastal region of Macedonia. The U.S. Roosevelt administration expressed the same concern through Edward Stettinius in 1944.[20] The Greek press and the Greek government of Andreas Papandreou continued to express the above concerns confronting the views of Yugoslavia[21] during the 1980s and until the Revolutions of 1989."

So why didn't you send some airplanes in Yugoslav airspace or did military manouvers on the border itself,then?You know like you did to Macedonia in 1992 in the "Alexandros" exercises.

Then cut the bullshit and prove it.

I gave you many sources for it.You haven't a single one for your claims.

Come live in Greece

Thanks but no thanks.I do however love going there for vacation.Nice food,btw.

President of FYROM and Turkey....and some obscure leftist homosexual journalists...hmm funny how you present yourself as a credible source.

Don't forget also president of Bulgaria.

The agreement talked about renaming the country and the nationality into "Severna Makedonija",not just "Makedonija".

Yes and despite that you haven't mentioned the term "North Macedonia" a single time,using every other name but that which your country recognised.

Ah so you're ashamed of your nationality,I didn't know.

Got me.Can't hide anything from you.

 

[Akritas]

What exactly are you imagining you proved now?Foinikas said that Macedonia provoked Greece by erecting statues in Skopje in 2009,while I responded that that was a reaction to Greek illegal veto of Macedonia joining NATO in 2008,which suspended all UN backed agreements between the two countries.
The only thing you have proven is that you have trouble comprehending.
By the way there is no such thing as "Slavmacedonian" the majority nation in North Macedonia is called Macedonian.

Again and for the last time, because you're playing the thread derailment game: The history of the expansionism and the theft of Greek/Bulgarian history of the state of the "People's Republic of Macedonia", "Yugoslav Republic of M", "former Yugoslav Republic of M" and today "Northern M" is long before 2008, as you falsely state.
I brought you three typical examples, which you deliberately ignore, trolling the essence of the comments.
And I bring you another example, before 2008, where the Slavo-Macedonians named the airport of Skopje as "Skopje Alexander the Great Airport" (Аеродром Александар Велики Скопје) at December 2006
As far as the term Slavo-Macedonian is concerned, they were the first to use it, with the ideological vehicle of the paramilitary SNOF group( Славјаномакедонски Народно Ослободителен Фронт‎) at 1943. That they change nationality like socks in the last 120 years, this is known.

 

[Damir877]

Again and for the last time, because you're playing the thread derailment game: The history of the expansionism and the theft of Greek/Bulgarian history of the state of the "People's Republic of Macedonia", "Yugoslav Republic of M", "former Yugoslav Republic of M" and today "Northern M" is long before 2008, as you falsely state.
I brought you three typical examples, which you deliberately ignore, trolling the essence of the comments.
And I bring you another example, before 2008, where the Slavo-Macedonians named the airport of Skopje as "Skopje Alexander the Great Airport" (Аеродром Александар Велики Скопје) at December 2006
As far as the term Slavo-Macedonian is concerned, they were the first to use it, with the ideological vehicle of the paramilitary SNOF group( Славјаномакедонски Народно Ослободителен Фронт‎) at 1943. That they change nationality like socks in the last 120 years, this is known.

As someone who lives in Macedonia i would say I know far better then you when the so called "antiqusation"(building statues and renaming things) started in Republic of Macedonia.What you guys imagine as "theft"and "expansionsm" is mostly your problem.And yes it did start in 2009 right after ICY verdict against Greece.Even so with all that there wasn't a single case of anyone calling for territorial changes,that exists only in Greek heads.
Since you have monopoly on the name Macedonia,you do realize that there is city called Macedonia in Ohio,USA.When can we expect Greece to accuse USA of stealing what you imagine as your history and force them to change it?Or do you only pick fights with countries 10 times smaller then you,while you are backed by entire EU?
As far as the term "slavomacedonian" no one here ever heard that.Maybe those Macedonians living in Greece call themselves that but here no one has ever used that term.Just Macedonians,you know like you called them till 1991.

 

[Super Falcon]

According RND, Erdogan's Turkey becomes a danger to NATO because........:

• is systematically circumventing Western sanctions against Russia
• is making questionable arms deals with Moscow
• has been blocking NATO's northern expansion for months.
• is openly threatening Greece – including by firing missiles at Athens
• claims as Turkish the Greek Aegean islands

Erdogan wird zur Gefahr für die Nato

Der türkische Präsident droht Griechenland unverhohlen – auch damit, Raketen auf Athen abzufeuern. Dazu unterläuft die Türkei systematisch die westlichen Sanktionen gegen Russland. Für die Nato wird Erdogan damit immer gefährlicher.

www.rnd.de

Soon entire NATO will in it's knees in front of Russia as USA ditching them in hole too

 

[Foinikas]

As someone who lives in Macedonia i would say I know far better then you when the so called "antiqusation"(building statues and renaming things) started in Republic of Macedonia.What you guys imagine as "theft"and "expansionsm" is mostly your problem.And yes it did start in 2009 right after ICY verdict against Greece.Even so with all that there wasn't a single case of anyone calling for territorial changes,that exists only in Greek heads.
Since you have monopoly on the name Macedonia,you do realize that there is city called Macedonia in Ohio,USA.When can we expect Greece to accuse USA of stealing what you imagine as your history and force them to change it?Or do you only pick fights with countries 10 times smaller then you,while you are backed by entire EU?
As far as the term "slavomacedonian" no one here ever heard that.Maybe those Macedonians living in Greece call themselves that but here no one has ever used that term.Just Macedonians,you know like you called them till 1991.

Listen,we can go on for pages and pages,but you've been derailing the thread. I told you twice that you're derailing it,Akritas told you now,it's useless. The thread is about Erdogan,not the naming dispute.

 

[Damir877]

Listen,we can go on for pages and pages,but you've been derailing the thread. I told you twice that you're derailing it,Akritas told you now,it's useless. The thread is about Erdogan,not the naming dispute.

I kinda think the exact opposite,that the two of you derailed the thread.I just mentioned how Turkey has every right to block Finland and Sweden,comparing it with Greece's illegal veto against Macedonia while you and you little buddy went on a tirade about how Greece has right to break international law over a statue.

 

[Foinikas]

I kinda think the exact opposite,that the two of you derailed the thread.I just mentioned how Turkey has every right to block Finland and Sweden,comparing it with Greece's illegal veto against Macedonia while you and you little buddy went on a tirade about how Greece has right to break international law over a statue.

It's not just a "statue",it's far more complicated. But anyway,your objection is noted. Still,Erdogan keeps bragging about what a big help he's been to NATO. The Westerners though don't seem very happy about his behavior the last few years.

 

[Damir877]

It's not just a "statue",it's far more complicated.

I would disagree.Seems quite simple to me.

But anyway,your objection is noted.

It wasn't "my objection",fact confirmed by the verdict of International Court of Justice.

Still,Erdogan keeps bragging about what a big help he's been to NATO. The Westerners though don't seem very happy about his behavior the last few years.

As someone who has investments in Turkish stock market I am not very happy with Erdogan too.Not just in the last few years either.Despite that i do think that especially in Ukraine,Turkey did more to help then most NATO members except USA and UK.