Rheinmetall releases Panther KF51 Main Battle Tank

[Foinikas]

You don't need 1to1 replacement.
Better concentrate on high tech army than larger with old equipment.

I don't have a problem in throwing away more Leopard 1A5s and M485s. Even a 1:3 ratio is great. Provided we buy quality stuff.

All your M113 should be upgraded by FFG and be upgraded to
IFV
Mortar
ATGM/Dedicated TH/TD (Spike NLOS Mk 5 or higher, Mk 6 is out soon)
Loitering (mass) launcher
Command vehicle

Brother we have about 2,000 M113 APCs

We need to get read of at least 1,000 of them.

BTW
What happened to the VBCI 2 in the English Wiki?

Probably not getting it. They might go for the Lynx only and not the VBCI Philoctetes.

Although you know how much I want us to get at least 120-150 of them. If not more! I also love the Gryffon and the AMX-10RC

Only if you want the whole cannon to bend down after a short while in the heat lmao

I thought it was about stealth :S

 

[BON PLAN]

It's not correct though lol, it's a myth, I have friends which are tank crews and they said it's never happened.

Merkava uses L44 because L55 bends quickly in the heat of the desert.

Most IFVs have the engine in the front and no one has ever reported on this disruption of the thermal optics problem

The German for Leo2 and French for Leclerc, in their developpment phase, studied the front location of the engine. It was the heat that, in the 2 cases, cancelled this possibility.

Strangely the UAE, not specially a cold country, use L52 Leclerc cannon without problem....

IFV range of fire has nothing to compare with MBT one. And IFV engine are not 1500 or 1200HP ones.

 

[Beny Karachun]

The German for Leo2 and French for Leclerc, in their developpment phase, studied the front location of the engine. It was the heat that, in the 2 cases, cancelled this possibility.

The German KF-41 Lynx

And also the French VBCI

And every other IFV have the engine in the front and no one canceled those projects.

And even if it could happen there's nothing AI can't solve, Elbit (which creates the optics for the Merkava) created this product for example:

I am telling you, I asked multiple Merkava gunners and this problem was never mentioned.

Strangely the UAE, not specially a cold country, use L52 Leclerc cannon without problem....

IFV range of fire has nothing to compare with MBT one. And IFV engine are not 1500 or 1200HP ones.

You think they use it without problem.
They're probably twice as labor intensive as an L-44 cannon.

KF-41 has 1200HP engine and a front engine.

 

[reflecthofgeismar]

I don't have a problem in throwing away more Leopard 1A5s and M485s. Even a 1:3 ratio is great. Provided we buy quality stuff.


Brother we have about 2,000 M113 APCs

We need to get read of at least 1,000 of them.


Probably not getting it. They might go for the Lynx only and not the VBCI Philoctetes.

Although you know how much I want us to get at least 120-150 of them. If not more! I also love the Gryffon and the AMX-10RC


I thought it was about stealth :S

M113 are ok-ish in 2nd line, when usefully upgraded.
Germany should allow Greece to produce up to 500 Leopard 2A"8" or whatever you would call that most possible modernization.
Same amount of KF41 IFV variant and up to 200 in other variants.
German and French Government should take a seat and care the share.
French 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 are very sexy.
So, tracked vehicles = German based.
Wheeled vehicles = French based.
500 Leopard 2A "Leonidas" (and a Wisent 2.1 based on that chassis, with Wisent 2 (or better) you have ARV, AEV, MC and BL. All what you need. *
500 KF41 Lynx
200 other KF41 Lynx
600+ VBCI 2 / VBCI Philoctetes 400 in IFV variant minimum and several different others like AMOS/NEMO MC, 40x255mm Rapidfire with integrated Mistral 3 etc.
2000+ Griffon
1000+ Serval
300+ EBRC Jaguar
For trucks I would go on Arquus ARMIS (4x4, 6x6, 8x8) in these cases, so the French are happy.

ARMIS : our new range of military trucks | Arquus

On the occasion of our virtual exhibition e-xpo ARQUUS, we are delighted to present our new military trucks range, called ARMIS.

www.arquus-defense.com

Artillery should be newest Caesar on the 6x6 and/or 8x8 of the French trucks, so you have less costs.

In the end you would have

4x4 Serval
6x6 Griffon
6x6 Jaguar
8x8 VBCI 2
Tracked KF41 Lynx
Tracked Leopard 2

and variants based on these fewer vehicles.
There you go.



*https://www.ffg-flensburg.de/en/products/ffg-developments/wisent-2/

 

[Communism]

The reason why front engine in a tank with proper armor is a bad idea is so that you have less to worry about with mobility kills from the front.

A front engine combat vehicle generally will count the engine along with the armor protection, which means that the rating is only good for something that has penetrated into the engine.

Front engine tanks also generally do not have the room for proper gun depression, which is a problem for US and European style tanks which rely entirely on hull down to protect the hull of their tanks and generally have poor hull armor protection.

Front engine lightly armored IFVs aren't really a problem, as if they put the engine in the back, the front is lightly armored anyways, so the extra effective armor can be worth it for that application.

 

[Apollon]

Well, I am not a war person but I support Russia so I will speak up for the new Armata tank which has active protection system but it will have to be modified to deal with NATO / Ukrainian suicide drones or those overhyped Erdogan TB290101 drones :

You mean the 6 Armatas that exist and no new ones are build because all parts come from....west?

 

[jamahir]

You mean the 6 Armatas that exist and no new ones are build because all parts come from....west?

Which "all parts" and how do you know there are six ?

 

[Apollon]

Which "all parts" and how do you know there are six ?

Its entire controle unit and motor is western.

 

[jamahir]

Its entire controle unit and motor is western.

Proof.

 

[Foinikas]

500 KF41 Lynx
200 other KF41 Lynx
600+ VBCI 2 / VBCI Philoctetes 400 in IFV variant minimum and several different others like AMOS/NEMO MC, 40x255mm Rapidfire with integrated Mistral 3 etc.
2000+ Griffon
1000+ Serval
300+ EBRC Jaguar

That's beyond our budget

I wouldn't even imagine having so many of those!

 

[Beny Karachun]

Which "all parts" and how do you know there are six ?

Position: French arms firm busts sanctions to help Russia build weapons

This story began with the fact that in April, volunteers noticed the products of the French manufacturer Thales in Russian military equipment – the T72B3 tank and the BMD-4

english.nv.ua

Is Russia’s ‘Deadliest Tank’ Using Western Technology?

A new report highlights how Russia is circumventing sanctions to buy Western military equipment.

thediplomat.com

Thermal optics are French

 

[zartosht]

Looks nice..... But very expensive looking as well. how much is this BMW of tanks going to cost?

western countries should have learned a lesson in ukraine. that quality isnt always what you should throw everything into. If your weapons systems are so expensive and complex, that they can only be produced in small numbers, THATS A HUGE PROBLEM

Also people comparing tanks and drones are dumb. It cant be a bigger apples and oranges comparison. 2 completely different weapons for different tasks.

Can a drone drive 60 km/h, carry hundreds of heavy rounds of ammo, Being able to provide fire support for infantrry, and instantly neutralize machine gun,sniper nests and enemy urban strongholds. while being immuned to 95%+ of potential enemy fire?

If tanks are used properly with infantry support, there is still no replacement to them. This exact debate was had in the 70s when ATGMs were invented.

If you want to attack on large scale and capture territory , YOU NEED TANKS. PERIOD.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Looks nice..... But very expensive looking as well. how much is this BMW of tanks going to cost?

western countries should have learned a lesson in ukraine. that quality isnt always what you should throw everything into. If your weapons systems are so expensive and complex, that they can only be produced in small numbers, THATS A HUGE PROBLEM

Also people comparing tanks and drones are dumb. It cant be a bigger apples and oranges comparison. 2 completely different weapons for different tasks.

Can a drone drive 60 km/h, carry hundreds of heavy rounds of ammo, Being able to provide fire support for infantrry, and instantly neutralize machine gun,sniper nests and enemy urban strongholds. while being immuned to 95%+ of potential enemy fire?

If tanks are used properly with infantry support, there is still no replacement to them. This exact debate was had in the 70s when ATGMs were invented.

If you want to attack on large scale and capture territory , YOU NEED TANKS. PERIOD.

Tanks are supposed to be expensive, if you use cheap tanks then your tank crews would be slaughtered and morale will be lower and it wouldn't be "worth it" to give high quality training, this is exactly what's happening in Ukraine to the Russian tank crews. Ukraine disproves your point, you pay 2 million dollars less for a T-90 or 3 million dollars less for a T-72 and you get launched to the space when a missile hits you.

Tanks should be expensive and tanks should prioritize on protecting their crew, a new tank can be made in a month, an experienced crewman can never really be replaced.

 

[Foinikas]

Can a drone drive 60 km/h, carry hundreds of heavy rounds of ammo, Being able to provide fire support for infantrry, and instantly neutralize machine gun,sniper nests and enemy urban strongholds. while being immuned to 95%+ of potential enemy fire?

Sadly,yes.

 

[BON PLAN]

They're probably twice as labor intensive as an L-44 cannon.P

Probably yes.

L44 with less support vs L52 with more accuracy and punch. All depend of your target.