Rheinmetall releases Panther KF51 Main Battle Tank

[jamahir]

Position: French arms firm busts sanctions to help Russia build weapons

This story began with the fact that in April, volunteers noticed the products of the French manufacturer Thales in Russian military equipment – the T72B3 tank and the BMD-4

english.nv.ua

Is Russia’s ‘Deadliest Tank’ Using Western Technology?

A new report highlights how Russia is circumventing sanctions to buy Western military equipment.

thediplomat.com

Thermal optics are French

The articles are old, one from 2015 and one from 2017. From the tank's Wikipedia page is :

In August 2020, the Industry and Trade minister told journalists that the production of 132 Armata-platform tanks and fighting vehicles including T-14 tanks had begun after the resolution of problems with engines and thermal-imaging equipment, and they would be issued to the armed forces in 2021.

 

[zartosht]

Tanks should be expensive and tanks should prioritize on protecting their crew, a new tank can be made in a month, an experienced crewman can never really be replaced.

Germany has around 220~ active mbts

French army has 222 leclercs

The british have around the same 220 mArk

Thats under 700 tanks combined for the german/british and french armies.

Ukraine has asked for 500 more immidiatly with open ended commitments for more and more

If you dont see how this is a major strategic problem then I cant help you.

NATO armies have become so obssessed by getting the absolute most expensive systems. This tank is of that same ideology. Which has shown its downsides when faced with a real army (not some illiterate taliban armed with aks and basic rpgs if lucky)

Sadly,yes.

They are not mutually exclusive. They can complement each other. A drone cannot replacw a tanks job

Imagine as an infantry man you are sent to capture an urban town. Would you rather have a 100 drones above you and all infantry?

Or a mix of infantry tanks and drones? The whole debate is nonesense.

Also “drones” can mean different things. Tb2s cost 2 mil and only carry a 150kg payload.

Heavier american drones able to carry more then 1 ton and equiped with systems that enable survavibility cost tens of millions

Also when the Russians captured enough territory to fully set up their electronic warfare network, tuned their radars to pick up tb2 profile objects. They have shown to be useless

Even at their hayday, they were propaganda tools with their tiny payloads not even denting the strategic picture

 

[Beny Karachun]

Germany has around 220~ active mbts

French army has 222 leclercs

The british have around the same 220 mArk

Thats under 700 tanks combined for the german/british and french armies.

Ukraine has asked for 500 more immidiatly with open ended commitments for more and more

If you dont see how this is a major strategic problem then I cant help you.

NATO armies have become so obssessed by getting the absolute most expensive systems. This tank is of that same ideology. Which has shown its downsides when faced with a real army (not some illiterate taliban armed with aks and basic rpgs if lucky)

European armies in general are small, but they don't need many tanks individually, they're in NATO. They have a ton of IFVs as well.

And no, if NATO faces any army it will absolutely decimate it.

 

[Foinikas]

They are not mutually exclusive. They can complement each other. A drone cannot replacw a tanks job

Imagine as an infantry man you are sent to capture an urban town. Would you rather have a 100 drones above you and all infantry?

Or a mix of infantry tanks and drones? The whole debate is nonesense.

Also “drones” can mean different things. Tb2s cost 2 mil and only carry a 150kg payload.

Heavier american drones able to carry more then 1 ton and equiped with systems that enable survavibility cost tens of millions

Also when the Russians captured enough territory to fully set up their electronic warfare network, tuned their radars to pick up tb2 profile objects. They have shown to be useless

Even at their hayday, they were propaganda tools with their tiny payloads not even denting the strategic picture

All that is also true and valid.

Imagine counter-UAV systems jamming or shooting down all that stuff with laser beams or projectiles

 

[Messerschmitt]

@Messerschmitt are you native German friend?

I am half Iranian and half German but born and raised in Germany.

 

[waz]

I am half Iranian and half German but born and raised in Germany.

Thanks.

 

[Paul2]

It's not correct though lol, it's a myth, I have friends which are tank crews and they said it's never happened.

Merkava uses L44 because L55 bends quickly in the heat of the desert.

Most IFVs have the engine in the front and no one has ever reported on this disruption of the thermal optics problem

On the other side, a front-engine is a target for an IR guided weapon, but Israel has no enemies with infrared guided ATGMs so far

I see 4 main genres of armour being a trend today.

1. Basic APC with RCWS
2. Basic IFV with 20mm-30mm + ATGM
3. Heavy IFV with 35m-75mm, and serious anti-air capability
4. Assault weapon carrier with 80mm-120mm low pressure gun-grenade-launcher-mortar, and direct fire capability
5. MBTs - not a new trend, but will still be there. 5th gen MBTs will be akin to 5th gen fighter jets, very low numbers

 

[BON PLAN]

NATO armies have become so obssessed by getting the absolute most expensive systems.

In fact these european MBT (Leo2, Leclerc, Challenger2) are so costly because we absolutely want to avoid any crew loss. A 45 tons MBT may be as efficient (same 120mm cannon), be half priced, but less potent to protect the crew...
All the western country now want to make war without any loss in our troups....
It's a social evolution.

Germany has around 220~ active mbts

French army has 222 leclercs

The british have around the same 220 mArk

Thats under 700 tanks combined for the german/british and french armies.

Ukraine has asked for 500 more immidiatly with open ended commitments for more and more

If you dont see how this is a major strategic problem then I cant help you.

I can speak for Leclerc, as I am french, but I think it's the same for the two others :
Leclerc was studied so as to be able to fight and win 1 vs 10 against the russian threats of the 80's (so T72 and T80). It is one reason of the high cost.
The other reason is that the number to be purchase fall from 1200 or 1500 (before the iran wall collapse) to 400.

 

[Beny Karachun]

On the other side, a front-engine is a target for an IR guided weapon, but Israel has no enemies with infrared guided ATGMs so far

I see 4 main genres of armour being a trend today.

1. Basic APC with RCWS
2. Basic IFV with 20mm-30mm + ATGM
3. Heavy IFV with 35m-75mm, and serious anti-air capability
4. Assault weapon carrier with 80mm-120mm low pressure gun-grenade-launcher-mortar, and direct fire capability
5. MBTs - not a new trend, but will still be there. 5th gen MBTs will be akin to 5th gen fighter jets, very low numbers

It doesn't matter really, a Javelin, an IR ATGM, is capable of only hitting front engine tanks? No. In fact most of its experience is against back engine T-90s, T-80s and T-72s.

 

[Hydration]

The reason why front engine in a tank with proper armor is a bad idea is so that you have less to worry about with mobility kills from the front.

A front engine combat vehicle generally will count the engine along with the armor protection, which means that the rating is only good for something that has penetrated into the engine.

Front engine tanks also generally do not have the room for proper gun depression, which is a problem for US and European style tanks which rely entirely on hull down to protect the hull of their tanks and generally have poor hull armor protection.

Front engine lightly armored IFVs aren't really a problem, as if they put the engine in the back, the front is lightly armored anyways, so the extra effective armor can be worth it for that application.

and that front extra armour doesnt work against modern APFSDS

 

[Paul2]

It doesn't matter really, a Javelin, an IR ATGM, is capable of only hitting front engine tanks? No. In fact most of its experience is against back engine T-90s, T-80s and T-72s.

From Ukraine, we hear that Javelin can very rarely do a near miss, or fail to lock a cold enough vehicle at the margin of its openvelope. Overwise, the hit rate is certainly above 90% as advertised.

Probably a no more than 10% survivability bonus

 

[Beny Karachun]

and that front extra armour doesnt work against modern APFSDS

Of course it does, Thick, sloped armor + ERA + an entire engine block offers the best protection.

From Ukraine, we hear that Javelin can very rarely do a near miss, or fail to lock a cold enough vehicle at the margin of its openvelope. Overwise, the hit rate is certainly above 90% as advertised.

Probably a no more than 10% survivability bonus

This is the Abrams from a thermal camera.
As you can see whether the engine is in the front or the back, in the heat of the desert it's all glowing.

 

[Hydration]

Of course it does, Thick, sloped armor + ERA + an entire engine block offers the best protection.


View attachment 854341
This is the Abrams from a thermal camera.
As you can see whether the engine is in the front or the back, in the heat of the desert it's all glowing.

ERA doesnt work against even old apfsds the only era that reduces apfsds effect by 20% is the russian relikt which gives away some of its effectivness agianst HEAT projectiles. And engines used as extra armour doesnt work on modern apfsds and being vulnurable to starting fires from the engine to reach crew and then ammunition. And this is what will u see as a crewman of tank

 

[Beny Karachun]

ERA doesnt work against even old apfsds the only era that reduces apfsds effect by 20% is the russian relikt which gives away some of its effectivness agianst HEAT projectiles. And engines used as extra armour doesnt work on modern apfsds and being vulnurable to starting fires from the engine to reach crew and then ammunition. And this is what will u see as a crewman of tank View attachment 854345View attachment 854346

Lol, ERA doesn't work against APFSDS? Nonsense. Also, Merkava ERA is internal so it's even more effective.
An engine block adds 1 meter on top of a very strong frontal armor.

That's maybe the thermal view in Siberia 1 minute after the engine lights up

 

[Hydration]

Lol, ERA doesn't work against APFSDS? Nonsense. Also, Merkava ERA is internal so it's even more effective.
An engine block adds 1 meter on top of a very strong frontal armor.

That's maybe the thermal view in Siberia 1 minute after the engine lights up

Do you even know how ERA works?