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Reviving Pakistan's Gunship Programs

Aside from the cost of developing a platform ab initio, where are the engines going to come from? As per my knowledge, the US and French are not releasing any, the Chinese do not yet have a powerful and reliable engine for helos( one of the main reasons for Z10 being returned) and the Russians are not playing ball. So you have a need now. You have barely stepped into the field of aviation and you want to design a helo from the base up on a nonexistent budget( in case you did not notice we are broke). The helo market is in a state of glut with multiple platforms vying f9r a very limited market. So in case 10 to 15 years down the line we develop a platform when we need one now, how many do we need. As far as I remember the need maximally is 80 platforms. So what do you think is going to be the cost of your 80 platforms? Please consider you will be investing possibly a couple of billion dollars plus getting 8nto a c9ntract to procure eng8nes with some subassembly which is going to be in the region of 30 million a pop plus setup which could set you back another half a billion dollars. Can you then calculate the per unit cost of this platform?
It is not without reason that PAA wanted a venture with the Turks. The initial setup costs would have been offset by getting some production rights of sub sections which could have been mutually beneficial. With the 2 brotherly countries both needing the platform the requirements would have gone up past 200 platforms. The Turks have already manufactured the helo so development costs would have been minimal and setup of sub assembly line would have paid for itself in due course. Cost per unit could have been rediced as Turkish labour is significantly more expensive than Pak labour which would have been a win win for both parties. Since the Turks are just starting off in the international market they might have been a bit more willing to offer you loans unlike the Chinese who are now think8ng twice about offering you any loans az your finacial condition is a mess. Plus the Chinese do not gain anything by offering you sub assembly.
Just a few thoughts for your kind consideration.

A
Ultimately you wull have to take yhe risk..if you play smart you should be able to develop a single engine used in both transport and gunships(nothing new, some engines are used this way)

Down the line there is big demand..you will need 150+ transport helis and 40-50 gunships...

Acquire mi27s and work on your own plateform
See if you can upgrade the older cobras or get surplus from usa for mean while
 
what about buying AH-1F from retired operators, and giving them a modest overhaul (maybe Turkish AH-1F being retired, maybe Thailand's helicopters in storage, more from Jordan, or just straight from American storage)? or asking the Chinese to develop a variant of the WZ-19 that only has the feature the PA really needs, and the excluded features can be added back in when the funds become available? Leasing the Z-10 if available would probably be the best option, as it provides the full capability, and is available right now, and the Pakistan Army has had years to evaluate and field test it in Pakistan.

Hi,

Pak army helicopter purchase got sabotaged by promises from Turks about the engine---.

Just like the sanctions of 90's were visible to some and many others were blind to it---in a similar manner---it was very surprising to see pakistan signing up Turkey for the helicopter with american engines.

Turkey was getting on the wrong side of the US at that time and pakistan's position was no better---.

I believe that the Turkey offered massive kickbacks to pak military for the deal--evenb Shahbaz Sharif mentioned not to dig deals with Turkey---we won't like what we see---.

Chinese helicopter were pretty close to the mark or maybe better---. Pak military would have done pretty good with those helicopters---.

Looks like the chinese did not give the kickbacks that the Turks were giving---.
 
Indigenous industry for Transport choppers should be a priority over imported Gunships.
 
Hi,

Pak army helicopter purchase got sabotaged by promises from Turks about the engine---.

Just like the sanctions of 90's were visible to some and many others were blind to it---in a similar manner---it was very surprising to see pakistan signing up Turkey for the helicopter with american engines.

Turkey was getting on the wrong side of the US at that time and pakistan's position was no better---.

I believe that the Turkey offered massive kickbacks to pak military for the deal--evenb Shahbaz Sharif mentioned not to dig deals with Turkey---we won't like what we see---.

Chinese helicopter were pretty close to the mark or maybe better---. Pak military would have done pretty good with those helicopters---.

Looks like the chinese did not give the kickbacks that the Turks were giving---.

Its really frustrating the Pakistani Military doesn't cut to the chase, and prevent these politicians from sabotaging defense procurement. We even evaluated the WZ-10 extensively if i'm not mistaken from 2016-2018. If the issue was cost, then the Army should have asked for a WZ-10 or WZ-19 variant that fits their needs, with nothing extra. The Enemies within are worse then the external enemies. Feb 2019 and the events since should be a wake up call if there ever was one, for the military and politicians to get there act together on procurements.
 
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Its really frustrating the Pakistani Military doesn't cut to the chase, and prevent these politicians from sabotaging defense procurement. We even evaluated the WZ-10 extensively if i'm not mistaken from 2016-2018. If the issue was cost, then the Army should have asked for a WZ-10 or WZ-19 variant that fits their needs, with nothing extra. The Enemies within are worse then the external enemies. Feb 2019 and the events since should be a wake up call if there ever was one, for the military and politicians to get there act together on procurements.

Hi,

Pakistani military procurement consortium is the worst enemy of pakistan---.

I got this confirmed after watching the most recent interview by Air Marshall Shahid Latif---.

I will find the video and post it here and tell you what he stated---.
 
It is some what concerning now that our various attempts to acquire Gunship helicopters has hit a snag


  • 12 Super COBRA Fleet has not been released
  • 20-30 Atak T129 Helicopters have the pending issue of Engine Approval from USA
  • No confirmed news on MI35 purchase from Russia

Interim Strategy (Possible Alternatives)
  • 20-30 , Z-10 Chinese helicopters on Lease
  • 24 Augusta Westland Transport choppers converted to Gunship role with Machine Gun


It is worth considering that India is awaiting Apache Deliveries , one of most technologically loaded Gunship, the ball is in Pakistan's court to fill our Gunship gaps


US will release both AH-1Z Vipers and F-16s to Pakistan once the deal has been struck between US and Pakistan/Taliban in the next few weeks.
 
Indigenous industry for Transport choppers should be a priority over imported Gunships.
there are several countries with whom you ccan end up doing joint ventures

ultimately it will big headache once puma and mi17 start to failing
 

Its just disheartening, that even though the instructions from the Quran are quoted and well known to all in the upper echelons of the military, on making preparation so as to be prepared for war, there would be such a state of overall corruption among those whose jobs it is to procure weapons. I don't think Air Marshall Latif was amongst the corrupt ones, and hence the honest efforts in making the JF-17 a potent fighter.

The PAF just needs to have the mindset that it needs to stop wasting time, procure what it needs, because without an adequate defense, there wont be a nation left to defend anyway. If we can't get the Block 70 deal by the end of the year, we need to make plans for at least two squadrons of J-10CE immediately. Either way, pilots will need 3-5 years to become proficient on either platform, so we need to see some kind of first proof we are getting the F-16s or else the US needs to know the PAF is walking for good (Hopefully the PAF can get the F-16 from the US from CSF Funds, and still get the J-10s anyway, we need at least 100-150 new planes ASAP).

Someone should also get to the bottom of if the J-10CE really costs $60 million, or if that price includes bribes to some general. I know the PAF said it wanted to get the planes at $40 million a copy. The PAF needs to negotiate hard, and if they commit to 36-40 planes, they should try to get a discount; meeting half way; $2 Billion for 40 planes. The J-10CE look like they already have the PL-15 and PL-10E integrated, so the PAF can counter the IAF's new Rafales and then some with the J-10CEs.

Also with the UAE looking like its pulling out of the Saudi Coalition, this maybe a second chance for Pakistan to join up with the Saudis, and build that expeditionary force you were advocating. Armed with at least a few squadrons of Eurofighters (with Meteors and IRST missiles) given to the PAF by Saudi Arabia, and other equipment (like the thousands of MRAPs we need for our Frontier corps, Tanks, attack and transport helicopters for the Army, etc.), It would open up another procurement window for the Defense needs of Pakistan. Also, the Pakistan Army maybe better able to defeat the Anti-Saudi forces, now that the conflict should be more further along, and the military forces and achievable/realistic objectives better defined. Iran has also been more isolated, and so the Pakistani forces would have more chances of engaging just enemy military forces, reducing the risk to civilian populations. the faster the conflict ends, the faster the post-war rebuilding can begin, and the Saudis would appropriate the Pakistanis helping break the stalemate, and help Pakistan financially and militarily for the effort.

Between the JF-17 Block III, J-10CE, Eurofighters, and possible F-16 Block 70s and more Used MLU F-16s; the PAF maybe able to get the 100-150 planes it will need to stay potent in a few years, if it does what it needs to do.

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there are several countries with whom you ccan end up doing joint ventures

ultimately it will big headache once puma and mi17 start to failing
Puma has gone old. PAA could JV with Chinese.
 
Puma has gone old. PAA could JV with Chinese.
i doubt chinese will do any JV, they will simply offer you licences production..as they want to sell themselves, its not the 1990s anymore
if you want to sell you will have to look at other countries like turkey, south africa may be ukrain
 
i doubt chinese will do any JV, they will simply offer you licences production..as they want to sell themselves, its not the 1990s anymore
if you want to sell you will have to look at other countries like turkey, south africa may be ukrain
Wouldn't know unless tried, the interest doesn't seem to be there.
Fennec and Ecureuil were picked off the shelf. No TOT.
 
The American avenue is resulting in massive delays for Pakistan, India is loading up on their weapons from France / USA / Russia

  • Apache from USA , no sanction on this shipment even after Kashmir Human Rights Violations
  • New orders of 100+ Helicopters for Indian Navy from France
  • The on going Helo attainment from Russia and Local Sources
  • India also openly opposed USA with purchase of S-300 from Russia still no sanctions


Even if their was concern on Z-10 , Chinese are likely to release a more potent Engine in future


Their is no logical explanation why Pakistani Helicopters (Super Cobra) are sent to storage , while Indian forces are getting their Apache , their is a double rule of engagement with Pakistan and India

Pakistan is still working to get its trapped AH1Z.
Mi 35 will be delivered on time.
Take no worries of T129, they will began to arrive in coming months.
Cobras have been refurbished as a stop gap measure and will continue to serve for time being.
 

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