Revival of ancestral links between Iranians and Kurds and Parsis picking up pace around the world

[Baibars_1260]

@aryobarzan @terry5
Amir Khusrau,(1253-1325 C.E.) who blended the Farsi language with music from Pakistan. Those were far darker days in our History facing the Mongol onslaught. But he preached love and tolerance:
800 years later his songs and messages are still on our lips and hearts.

 

[aryobarzan]

@aryobarzan @terry5
Amir Khusrau,(1253-1325 C.E.) who blended the Farsi language with music from Pakistan. Those were far darker days in our History facing the Mongol onslaught. But he preached love and tolerance:
800 years later his songs and messages are still on our lips and hearts.

Amazing...Just tells you the current geographical boundaries do not tell you anything about cultural bond between people living inside these boundaries.

.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Amazing...Just tells you the current geographical boundaries do not tell you anything about cultural bond between people living inside these boundaries.

The cultural bonds with Pakistan will remain and they are eternal.

The 600 year cultural bonds with India is over. Indians hate these cultural bonds which they identify as "foreign " and the culture of "invaders".
This is exemplified by India's treatment of the Farsi language that had become as indigenous to India as English is today.
India had degraded or mostly eliminated the teaching of Farsi except perhaps as a translation tool ( modern commercial Farsi) taught at the School of Foreign languages in Jawaharlal National University ( a hated leftist enclave ! ).
The animosity to Farsi is also transposed over into Urdu because it has 65% Farsi words. Under a draconian law Urdu has been banned as a language of official communication in Kashmir where even under Hindu and Sikh rule it was the official language. That was the last enclave of Farsi and Urdu.
The reason for the animosity is based on religion because right wing religious fundamentalists identify the script and language as "Islamic". The fact that sacred Hindu scriptures were translated into Farsi and published when India was under Farsi rule is conveniently buried in their blind hatred of the culture.
Pakistan has no cultural revisionist chauvinism.
How the cultural boundaries are blurred in Pakistan is typified in the Qasida Burda sung in Farsi, Urdu, Saraiki, and of course the original Arabic.

 

[Baibars_1260]

How much "modern" Nationalist Indians hate Farsi and Persian culture.

Nazeer Ahmed translated the Indian Penal Code into Urdu in 1860 keeping much of the Farsi content. Now after 160 years this beautiful language has been kicked out !

"Mukadma, tafteesh, khaangi, mujhrim no more, the Delhi High Court has instructed the Delhi Police to stop flaunting their knowledge of Urdu and Persian, and start recording FIRs in simple and plain language for everyone to understand. It held that police officers are working for the common public at large and not always for those who are Doctorate holders in Urdu, Hindi or Persian languages."

"Itna Urdu nahi chalega", Delhi High Court orders Delhi Police to remove complicated Urdu from FIRs

Mukadma, tafteesh, khaangi, mujhrim no more, the delhi high court has instructed the Delhi Police to stop flaunting their knowledge of Urdu and Persian

tfipost.com

 

[aryobarzan]

I say Sistan because of its highly strategic location on the Hormuz. And no attacking or invading. ONLY and IF EVER Iran disintegrates. I know what the follies of creating a permanent enemy to the west might have.

Pakistan has pretty much shot itself in its own foot in Balochistan. Balochistan used to be four or five princely states. Then some wise guy decided to join all of them together into one province in the 1950s.

I believe inviting in Iranian refugees of the educated kind in 1979 and post 1979 would have been a good idea at integrating the two countries and giving us leverage over Iran. One of my more radical ideas is that Pakistan should also have supported an independent Hazara state to the north of Balochistan.

Khomeini Iran is a sinking ship. An incredibly isolated pariah state that might just disintegrate completely after oil becomes irrelevant.

Shah was an ally and in those days perhaps, the best! And "yes" he would've gone for Balochistan, had things deteriorated into disintegration. Baloch problem is partly created by Pakistan itself by merging, former princely states and purchased Gwadar, in the province. Balochistan is ethnically and linguistically diverse, on top of being the most thinly populated one... it would have been better to dissect it in manageable parts.
All politics being local... take it and give it to the people and they care not what you eat in your home... right now tribes whose total territory doesn't exceed more than a district, hold mandate for a combined Baloch state of not only different ethnicities but national boundaries of three states. Anyways, make governance easy and hold leaders accountable in their local settings.

About Pakistan's aspirations, states must have a direction, common cause and be conforming/predatory/proliferating(think shah's threat). A winning idea is an expanding idea... won not necessarily at the edge of a sword(leaves looser guessing for centuries to come and keeps frat groups with grudge of centuries with twist, a switch). Pakistan has too much at hand, and first among many is consolidation! Consolidation on what is there and then etch ahead. Second is integration, hard borders make it impossible, keeps you an outlier and most importantly ceases projection of soft power. To the west of Pakistan, states exist in a perpetual power vacuum seeking stability on the shoulders of have beens.

Lastly, Iran faces challenge of the century. One created by it's own leadership, that is pseudo Islamic/ethnic, based on former glories. In doing so they have picked a fight with everyone, too clever for their own good... A storm is gathering pace and it seems all are standing against it or idle witnesses. Though, Pakistan is not a party against Iran, due in part because of China and partly because any conflict will invariably be destabilizing.
In light of all this, if it all goes up for grabs, then "yes" Pakistan should go for Sistan!

Interesting a Jew (possibly Iranian Jew!) with the name "olden wisdom" trying to create division between Iranian and Pakistanis.....yes that is your old jewish " wisdom" of divide and conquer but I have news for you...After 7000 years we Persians know your style..can not hide behind those American flags...Did you watch the news yesterday..It is coming apart and when it does..your little stolen land in middle east will self liberate and go back to its original owners...Iranians do not even have to lift a finger. Did not want to turn this thread into political but some one had to bring you back to earth. Now lets keep this thread cultural and if you have nothing to say cultural then F*ck off this thread.

 

[aryobarzan]

@padamchen..My friend I see you are Banned..not sure why..hope we can talk again sometime soon.

@Baibars_1260 ..My friend I thank you for all the information and beautiful songs..I learned a lot in this thread about Pakistan,culture and language..

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Interesting a Jew (possibly Iranian Jew!) with the name "olden wisdom" trying to create division between Iranian and Pakistanis.....yes that is your old jewish " wisdom" of divide and conquer but I have news for you...After 7000 years we Persians know your style..can not hide behind those American flags...Did you watch the news yesterday..It is coming apart and when it does..your little stolen land in middle east will self liberate and go back to its original owners...Iranians do not even have to lift a finger. Did not want to turn this thread into political but some one had to bring you back to earth. Now lets keep this thread cultural and if you have nothing to say cultural then F*ck off this thread.

Case of overactive imagination... how or what made you come up with such elaborate fib? Persians though cherish their storytelling traditions and you could have added a short post note.
About Persian history, Aryo Barzan was a loser though a brave one... Did you purposefully choose your alt. ego as a brave loser? A character trait, perhaps?
Anyways, Every single thing you said about me is patently false and I have no grievance or pretense against Persians whatsoever! I have no ill will, designs or desires against you or Iranians and least of all any reason create or wish division between Pakistan and Iran.
In fact, if anything I have been against any aggression towards Iran... and if you had read correctly and perhaps accurately extrapolated I did mention the cause of current Iranian fracas, universal hostile designs against all it neighbors and otherwise bad decision making. In fact if anything Pakistan would be most affected if Iran is destabilized, yet Iran collaborated with India against Pakistan... knowing full well the repercussions of destabilizing a neighboring nuclear state would be ...
And yet, it wasn't Iran but India that walked away and chose yet another rival camp...

So, understand this, Iran is on a thin ice partly because of its own doing. Iran is facing a gathering storm and it's enemies are getting their lines in order... just recently Qatar made it back in the camp. The zoro guy schmoozing up to you wants his pound of flesh, if you're clever, you would have or should have seen through it... instead you blame me...

 

[aryobarzan]

Case of overactive imagination... how or what made you come up with such elaborate fib? Persians though cherish their storytelling traditions and you could have added a short post note.
About Persian history, Aryo Barzan was a loser though a brave one... Did you purposefully choose your alt. ego as a brave loser? A character trait, perhaps?
Anyways, Every single thing you said about me is patently false and I have no grievance or pretense against Persians whatsoever! I have no ill will, designs or desires against you or Iranians and least of all any reason create or wish division between Pakistan and Iran.
In fact, if anything I have been against any aggression towards Iran... and if you had read correctly and perhaps accurately extrapolated I did mention the cause of current Iranian fracas, universal hostile designs against all it neighbors and otherwise bad decision making. In fact if anything Pakistan would be most affected if Iran is destabilized, yet Iran collaborated with India against Pakistan... knowing full well the repercussions of destabilizing a neighboring nuclear state would be ...
And yet, it wasn't Iran but India that walked away and chose yet another rival camp...

So, understand this, Iran is on a thin ice partly because of its own doing. Iran is facing a gathering storm and it's enemies are getting their lines in order... just recently Qatar made it back in the camp. The zoro guy schmoozing up to you wants his pound of flesh, if you're clever, you would have or should have seen through it... instead you blame me...

I reply to you in reverse order..The ZORO guy as you call him tries to let Iranians who have forgotten their history to get reacquainted with it . His intentions whatever they are works for me.....His accounts of what happened to Persians 600 years ago are the most detailed I have read. I tried to tell him and I repeat here (I hope he still reads this thread) ..Sanjar..did not awaken Persians because Persians are now busy with a bigger fish..Migration to the roots only happen when a society is at rest and has no external threat.

Now about "Aryobarzan"...Yes he lost the battle of "Persian Gates" and he bravely died in it... just like a true Aryan warrior should..something you Jews should learn from him.. and may be instead of trying to get someone else to do your biddings, you should do it yourselves...
Iran is not on thin ICE on the contrary the fear of her enemies have made them to accept the most uncomfortable and odd political marriage (a colonizer Jew and a Wahhabi Arab!) ..now who is on thin ICE..!!!..May be they know something you do not!.

 

[Baibars_1260]

@Baibars_1260 ..My friend I thank you for all the information and beautiful songs..I learned a lot in this thread about Pakistan,culture and language..

Welcome.
I felt I needed to set the perspective straight.
Parsis based in India have as much connection with ( or respect for ) Iranian culture than African Americans in Bronx NY have with Sierra Leone or Gabon where they originally came from. Some racial connection is there but beyond that there is absolutely nothing.
In religion, language, cuisine, and culture they are totally different. Even the Gulla language and culture so meticulously rejuvenated from a residual dialect around Charleston South Carolina is but a distant connection to its original native tongue in Sierra Leone.
Parsis are ignorant of the rich Persian heritage developed over 1400 years of Iranian influence over much of Khwarzim and old Northern India. There are significant traces of Farsi, in Kashmiri, Urdu, Pashto, Punjabi, and Baluchi. There is Persian Iranian influence in cuisine, dress, songs, music, poetry.
The Parsis have NO connection beyond their religion which was once the religion of Iran. The Parsis in all their 1300 years presence in India never acknowledged, or recognized the contribution of the Farsi language and culture to the the subcontinent. This was adopted by Hindus, Sikhs, and of course Muslims but never by Parsis. They developed an insular subculture based on a dialect of a language (Gujarati) confined to a very narrow geographical boundary. Even the Gujarati they spoke was different from the mainstream Gujarati.

Modern Parsis do not have any more claim over modern Iranian Persian culture than West Indians have over the African Zulu culture of South Africa.
I will end my post with this delightful old Bollywood song:
زُبان یار من ترکی
Even Bollywood from time to time recognizes old India's Farsi connection.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

I reply to you in reverse order..The ZORO guy as you call him tries to let Iranians who have forgotten their history to get reacquainted with it . His intentions whatever they are works for me.....His accounts of what happened to Persians 600 years ago are the most detailed I have read. I tried to tell him and I repeat here (I hope he still reads this thread) ..Sanjar..did not awaken Persians because Persians are now busy with a bigger fish..Migration to the roots only happen when a society is at rest and has no external threat.

Now about "Aryobarzan"...Yes he lost the battle of "Persian Gates" and he bravely died in it... just like a true Aryan warrior should..something you Jews should learn from him.. and may be instead of trying to get someone else to do your biddings, you should do it yourselves...
Iran is not on thin ICE on the contrary the fear of her enemies have made them to accept the most uncomfortable and odd political marriage (a colonizer Jew and a Wahhabi Arab!) ..now who is on thin ICE..!!!..May be they know something you do not!.

You know, I wish both you and Iran all the best. You have read him and not me(though I don't have such elaborate writeups or any such future desire) but have formed an opinion about me... if anything, I don't mince words!

Anyways, Iran is either doing everything absolutely right, partly right or absolutely wrong. I don't know why irony is lost on you when Iran stood by India, despite being an immediate threat to Pakistan(something you'd only attribute to Israel). whereas, Pakistani, Muslim and Kashmir cause were and are not only dear to Pakistan, it was a direct subject of hostility of it's neighbors ganging up both overtly and/or convert because of it/them.

If it weren't for circumstances beyond Iranian control wouldn't India still be an ally? Pakistan part of Saudi/Israeli coalition...

 

[Baibars_1260]

If it weren't for circumstances beyond Iranian control wouldn't India still be an ally? Pakistan part of Saudi/Israeli coalition...

As far as India is concerned it will never ever have the relationship that it enjoyed with Iran even during the Shah's days or before the Hindutva wave swept India in 2014. Iran and Iranians are now seen by India as "Muslims " and nothing else. A look at the feed back on the newspaper comment sections will show how Indians really feel about Iran. There are open calls for invasion and occupation to seize Iran's oil since India can no longer buy that without offending the USA.

In the old India the connection with Iran by virtue of language and culture was natural based on a shared heritage going back 800 years.
Religious Hindus like Ramanand Sagar who produced TV serials based on Hindu religious epics had post graduate degrees in Farsi.
Sikh Gurus learned Farsi and in fact the famous Zafarnama a verse letter written by the Sikh Guru Gobind Singh to the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb was written in Farsi.
Numerous Hindu scholars like Firaq, Jagannath Azad, Gopi Chand Narang and H.R. Chopra were fairly familiar with the poetical aspects of the Farsi language. Hindus far preferred learning Farsi over Arabic due to its secular literature and being far easier to pronounce.

Now of course Farsi along with Urdu are swear words in India.These languages are identified as foreign "invader" languages.
(Wonder why English doesn't qualify)

It doesn't matter that the Hindu epics were translated into both languages by Muslim scholars,

Persian Ramayanas

The story of Ramayana is one of the most ancient and sacred stories of India. It was originally composed in

ranasafvi.com

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

As far as India is concerned it will never ever have the relationship that it enjoyed with Iran even during the Shah's days or before the Hindutva wave swept India in 2014. Iran and Iranians are now seen by India as "Muslims " and nothing else. A look at the feed back on the newspaper comment sections will show how Indians really feel about Iran. There are open calls for invasion and occupation to seize Iran's oil since India can no longer buy that without offending the USA.

In the old India the connection with Iran by virtue of language and culture was natural based on a shared heritage going back 800 years.
Religious Hindus like Ramanand Sagar who produced TV serials based on Hindu religious epics had post graduate degrees in Farsi.
Sikh Gurus learned Farsi and in fact the famous Zafarnama a verse letter written by the Sikh Guru Gobind Singh to the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb was written in Farsi.
Numerous Hindu scholars like Firaq, Jagannath Azad, Gopi Chand Narang and H.R. Chopra were fairly familiar with the poetical aspects of the Farsi language. Hindus far preferred learning Farsi over Arabic due to its secular literature and being far easier to pronounce.

Now of course Farsi along with Urdu are swear words in India.These languages are identified as foreign "invader" languages.
(Wonder why English doesn't qualify)

It doesn't matter that the Hindu epics were translated into both languages by Muslim scholars,

Persian Ramayanas

The story of Ramayana is one of the most ancient and sacred stories of India. It was originally composed in

ranasafvi.com

So how does hindu India rationalize a rapprochement with Arabs no less joining the anti Iranian camp? I know sheikhdoms are all about perseverance and money, so no objections there...

 

[aryobarzan]

Welcome.
I felt I needed to set the perspective straight.
Parsis based in India have as much connection with ( or respect for ) Iranian culture than African Americans in Bronx NY have with Sierra Leone or Gabon where they originally came from. Some racial connection is there but beyond that there is absolutely nothing.
In religion, language, cuisine, and culture they are totally different. Even the Gulla language and culture so meticulously rejuvenated from a residual dialect around Charleston South Carolina is but a distant connection to its original native tongue in Sierra Leone.
Parsis are ignorant of the rich Persian heritage developed over 1400 years of Iranian influence over much of Khwarzim and old Northern India. There are significant traces of Farsi, in Kashmiri, Urdu, Pashto, Punjabi, and Baluchi. There is Persian Iranian influence in cuisine, dress, songs, music, poetry.
The Parsis have NO connection beyond their religion which was once the religion of Iran. The Parsis in all their 1300 years presence in India never acknowledged, or recognized the contribution of the Farsi language and culture to the the subcontinent. This was adopted by Hindus, Sikhs, and of course Muslims but never by Parsis. They developed an insular subculture based on a dialect of a language (Gujarati) confined to a very narrow geographical boundary. Even the Gujarati they spoke was different from the mainstream Gujarati.

Modern Parsis do not have any more claim over modern Iranian Persian culture than West Indians have over the African Zulu culture of South Africa.
I will end my post with this delightful old Bollywood song:
زُبان یار من ترکی
Even Bollywood from time to time recognizes old India's Farsi connection.

Thank you for the song.. what you wrote about Parsis is complete shock to me ..I have never met a Parsi so I am unable to make any judgement on that but sounds as if you know that subject well...I knew about Pakistan's cultural ties with Iran but I did not know the extent of it...a pleasant surprise.

NOW i have my own question from you... as an Iranian I never understood Why there is so much animosity between Pakistan and India..let me explain...We Persian have animosity against Arabs and it goes back 600 years because we are different race, different culture, different language different religion and of course and bloody history..

Now when I look at India and Pakistan both people lived together and I know muslims were a minority in India (and subject to the terror of majority like every other minority)..but what makes them so adverserials now that they are separated as sovereign countries..is it Political (kashmir!) ..or is there something deeper.

 

[Baibars_1260]

So how does hindu India rationalize a rapprochement with Arabs no less joining the anti Iranian camp? I know sheikhdoms are all about perseverance and money, so no objections there...

It's the "poodle" effect from the USA. It's not a blanket pan- Arab anti-Iranian bias but a carefully cultivated link with the petty Gulf Sheikhs only. The Arab people, their, faith, and their culture are hated, not their corrupt tin-pot rulers who hire cheap Indian manpower in their tiny kingdoms. Where no commercial advantages are evident the hatred the average radicalized Hindu expresses for Arabs is pretty evident.
Example: The Palestinians are also Arabs but are hated by Hindutva zealots , along with Yemenis, Lebanese, Jordanians, Iraqis and Syrians. The white collar expat Hindu community in the Gulf states hate these Arabs because they are mostly educated and are viewed as competition in the lucrative professional job market. But the overall hatred is religious, and political.,Religious because they are Muslims, political because these countries are anti-Zionist.
Radical Hindus don't like Algerians, Egyptians, Moroccans, Tunisians, Mauritanians either. These countries provide educated professional manpower to the Gulf job market with the added advantage of being bi-lingual ( Arabic and European languages) and of course being mostly Muslim.
The only Gulf Arab country radical Indian Hindus hated is Qatar.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Thank you for the song.. what you wrote about Parsis is complete shock to me ..I have never met a Parsi so I am unable to make any judgement on that but sounds as if you know that subject well...I knew about Pakistan's cultural ties with Iran but I did not know the extent of it...a pleasant surprise.

NOW i have my own question from you... as an Iranian I never understood Why there is so much animosity between Pakistan and India..let me explain...We Persian have animosity against Arabs and it goes back 600 years because we are different race, different culture, different language different religion and of course and bloody history..

Now when I look at India and Pakistan both people lived together and I know muslims were a minority in India (and subject to the terror of majority like every other minority)..but what makes them so adverserials now that they are separated as sovereign countries..is it Political (kashmir!) ..or is there something deeper.

Let's break up the questions:

1. Why do Pakistan and India hate each other? Is it just Kashmir or is it something deeper?

2. Why do Hindutva mind set Hindus hate Indian Muslims?
Do they hate all Muslims globally or just Indian,Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims?

3. What is Hindutva, and how does the rise of Hindutva in India impact India's relationship with Iran and the Islamic world in general?

4. Why is Iran's pre- Islamic heritage being highlighted by Hindutva zealots and not Indonesia's when Indonesians mostly converted from Hinduism and some local beliefs?
Let me know if there are more questions.
Will try to answer the above in 3 separate posts .