Retaking Kashmir after 70 years

[Nilgiri]

@Gryphon

PA formations are sometimes lesser in strength than IA. For an offensive, a division could be reinforced with brigades or battalions or company from other formations. This is very disappointing. A formation should be able to sustain its operations by itself, it should be given all such assets fully dedicated to it.

PA psyche is, if a formation is swelled up and is usually bigger than a regular formation, either attach more troops to it and start an offensive against an even bigger enemy formation otherwise start diluting it and bring it to regular sized formation strength and send its shaved off troops elsewhere. Conversely, If a formation is smaller than regular formation, start attaching paramilitary troops to it to make up the numbers.

Yeah its why I'm going to keep resolution up to brigade (where relevant and independent etc) for now given I think in IA case often 2 - 3 brigades often lead to equivalent division size...so if we remove brigades, we may not get the full picture for the operations....since essentially they can have total combined force projection of a division, just split a bit wider.

Hopefully Joe et al show up bit later and add some inputs. Things have gotten quieter here lately...

 

[Signalian]

Yeah its why I'm going to keep resolution up to brigade (where relevant and independent etc) for now given I think in IA case often 2 - 3 brigades often lead to equivalent division size...so if we remove brigades, we may not get the full picture for the operations....since essentially they can have total combined force projection of a division, just split a bit wider.

Hopefully Joe et al show up bit later and add some inputs. Things have gotten quieter here lately...

PA plays around with formations and their strengths alot. As an example, lets have a look at 8th Independent Armored Brigade. It usually has the following composition:
1. Armored Regiment
2. Armored Regiment
3. Mechanized Infantry Battalion
4. Artillery Regiment
5. Indp Coy Signals


Where as, following is the composition of 8th Independent Armored Brigade in 1971 war:
1. 13 Lancers (Armored Regiment)
2. 27 Cavalry (Armored Regiment)
3. 31 Cavalry (Armored Regiment)
4. 11 Indp Armored Squadron (Armored Squadron)
5. 29 FF (Mechanized Infantry Battalion)

and when you look at 6th Armored Division composition in 1971 war:
1. 24 Cavalry
2. 25 Cavalry
3. 51 lancers
4. 11 Cavalry (attached to 23rd Infantry Division)
5. 28 Cavalry (attached to 23rd Infantry Division)

Ironically, 6th Armored Division's strength was lesser than 8th Independent Armored Brigade in the process of the 1971 war.

I hope you get an idea how Pakistan mixes up formations and attaches brigades, battalions, regiments, companies etc from one formation to another in course of war.

 

[Nilgiri]

@Signalian @Gryphon @Joe Shearer

The issue that presents now is both exporting and hosting at (max) resolution. I have found a few quick workarounds for time being (in interests of time) but will investigate further if required.

For now I will come back to the ORBAT map after we have first list of corrections/suggestions from all interested.

In the master (exported) map, I have left out Eastern India for time being (I might make that a separate export etc)....I'll get around to adding it later once we have fixed anything in immediate IND-PAK border area. There are couple stitching issues (because of max export size available...that I will again look into later if required (and if they are even relevant/noticeable).

For now I feel these will serve our purpose for identifying mistakes/corrections in crucial areas in zoomed in area... (the zoomed outversion is just to show you the size of the master image). Remember I can go much more detailed resolution (for say version 2 - which I think will be the "FINAL") etc once we have fixed anything that need to be fixed in this "chicken neck" area. The labelling etc all becomes lot better/clearer at max resolution...so dont worry about that.

Also if you want any other zoomed in spots right now to check out whats there...just request me here.

(Click for bigger):

 

[Signalian]

@Nilgiri

@Joe Shearer will ask u to make an App very soon for interactive maps and scenraios

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri

@Joe Shearer will ask u to make an App very soon for interactive maps and scenraios

That is hopefully what the discord area will be, so we can be more interactive + real time on suggestions etc

 

[nahtanbob]

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Using unconventional warfare will only reinforce India's position that Pakistan supports terrorism. There will be massive pressure to stop backing terrorists from the international community.

Its better to go the conventional route. Let India be the aggressor, let them execute a hit and run raid and we counter with an all out air land assault into the valley and northern portions of Kashmir. We would have 3 - 5 days before the international community step's in. Leh and srinigar air bases would have to be destroyed, if successful the Paf can establish local air superiority over the valley and go to work bombing Indian positions on the Loc and in the valley. Local militants can help by attacking behind the Loc. Then the pa attacks.

I would only attempt this if we can reach our objectives within a few days. If its not possible then we wait for a better time. If they want to escalate in the south that's what the nuke are for.

ignoring military matters for a moment an all out conventional war with india will cost pakistan billion dollars a day

 

[Gryphon]

IABG ?

Bde got 31 Corps insignia, and not that of 26 Mech Div.

I have just noticed some recent re-organization in PA, involves multiple divisions, will update when more details are received.
Will also include PA Air Defence formations in my update to post #132.

@Joe Shearer FYI


@Nilgiri

Remove Arty / AD Bdes from IA map, these are mostly U/I and don't serve any purpose here if their PA equivalents aren't mentioned.

 

[Jugger]

The only way to take Kashmir is to force India to fight a two front war with China and Pakistan. If China threatens central India, then Pakistan can launch a massive invasion into Kashmir proper. But we don't know what India's redline is in terms of Nuclear option.

In short, since both countries have nuclear weapons, neither can defeat the other.

So what you have is a stalemate. Best to turn the LOC into a permanent border and give people on both sides of Kashmir ID special cards so they can travel and visit relatives on both sides of the border.

This is the most practical answer to the Kashmir issue ATM.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Nilgiri

@Joe Shearer will ask u to make an App very soon for interactive maps and scenraios

Great idea!

That is hopefully what the discord area will be, so we can be more interactive + real time on suggestions etc

Tell me more about the 'discord' thingy. I have had a few bad days, spent at home in bed, so will concentrate on activating that asap. TIA.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Kashmir is important for us from strategic point of view and rivers are also flowing from Kashmir. We should continue their support & liberate kashmir..

 

[Joe Shearer]

PA plays around with formations and their strengths alot. As an example, lets have a look at 8th Independent Armored Brigade. It usually has the following composition:
1. Armored Regiment
2. Armored Regiment
3. Mechanized Infantry Battalion
4. Artillery Regiment
5. Indp Coy Signals


Where as, following is the composition of 8th Independent Armored Brigade in 1971 war:
1. 13 Lancers (Armored Regiment)
2. 27 Cavalry (Armored Regiment)
3. 31 Cavalry (Armored Regiment)
4. 11 Indp Armored Squadron (Armored Squadron)
5. 29 FF (Mechanized Infantry Battalion)

and when you look at 6th Armored Division composition in 1971 war:
1. 24 Cavalry
2. 25 Cavalry
3. 51 lancers
4. 11 Cavalry (attached to 23rd Infantry Division)
5. 28 Cavalry (attached to 23rd Infantry Division)

Ironically, 6th Armored Division's strength was lesser than 8th Independent Armored Brigade in the process of the 1971 war.

I hope you get an idea how Pakistan mixes up formations and attaches brigades, battalions, regiments, companies etc from one formation to another in course of war.

I noticed that, trying to reconstruct events in that conflict, and in 1965, and got thoroughly muddled. Why is that, @Signalian?

Yeah its why I'm going to keep resolution up to brigade (where relevant and independent etc) for now given I think in IA case often 2 - 3 brigades often lead to equivalent division size...so if we remove brigades, we may not get the full picture for the operations....since essentially they can have total combined force projection of a division, just split a bit wider.

Hopefully Joe et al show up bit later and add some inputs. Things have gotten quieter here lately...

Not well. So sorry.

Oh yeah i would love to see @Joe Shearer sitting in a T-90 and leading those Armored Brigades into action from the front

A job well done @Nilgiri

Very well done.

As for the T-90 bit, forget about @jbgt90; ever wondered why I have been consistently for the Arjuna, and always opposed this Dinky toy? I'll have to reduce my waist size back to 36 from the present 40.

Oh yeah i would love to see @Joe Shearer sitting in a T-90 and leading those Armored Brigades into action from the front

A job well done @Nilgiri

AND I'd rather concentrate on beefing up our artillery. What we really need is a counter-measure to the PA's damned Chinese MBRLs, with a range of at least 150 kms. Five batteries ranged along the lower slopes of the mountains overlooking the Shakargarh bulge.

• There exist Arty Bdes and Air Defence Bdes under most Corps HQ's.

• 1 Strike Corps & 5 (holding) Corps have an Arty Div each.

• There are 2x Air Defence Divisions in PA, subordinate to a separate Corps-equivalent HQ.

• I excluded engineer, signals and other support units from ORBAT in post #132.

EDIT: I would suggest removing Arty/AD Bdes from the maps on both sides, though AD Divisions may be added (like Arty Div's).



I feel the IA ORBAT Nilgiri is working on is somewhat broken.

All the information is not available in public. Plus different sources have different accounts.

26 Inf Div is based at Jammu, has to defend several approaches, but 16 Cavalry is there in Samba.

2× or 3× IABG's must be with 9 Corps (incl. the Samba based armd regiment).

The tank-passable terrain within 16 Corps limits is (west of) Akhnoor, where 10 RAPID is meant to operate.

Two points:

1. Samba is barely 40 kms from Jammu; it takes a T-90 less than an hour to get to Jammu.
2. 16th Light Cavalry is a legacy regiment; look it up when you have some spare time. Muchu Chaudhuri was a CO (Harbaksh thought he thought too much of himself as an authority on armoured warfare); Leslie Sawhney and Bubbles Habibullah were both officers. I mention Leslie Sawhney being a former Tata employee; Tata employees will 'get it'.

They are fiddling around with 9 Corps; there will be changes if there are not already changes. The only person who can tell us is better advised not to comment on these, and has been holding his silence. About 9 Corps, I was told that they write it as '9', not as 'IX' because 'XI' Corps is also a part of the Command and there would be too many Xs and Is flying around. Not my story; just repeating what was learnt over a beer many moons ago.

BTW, PA has posted an SP Medium Regiment to Okara, a new formation is probably coming up.

Not the right time for a detailed response, but one or two points:

6th Armored will have more freedom in open areas and plains to operate than to converge at Jammu. 8 IABG can do the job. India will retaliate with full force to relieve Jammu .

There is already reinforcement at Nagrota, which is only 12 kms from Jammu, admittedly over difficult roads (a good way to get a map reference is to select a walking transit from A to B; the gradients show up as a cross-section below).

6th Armored Div should be sent on offensive towards Kathua/Pathankot/Gurdaspur to block the roads leading upto Jammu:
1. Any Indian armored forces rushing to Jammu from Pathankot and beyond, have to be stopped.

2. An offensive by 6th Armd Div into India will force India to commit one of its Armd Divs into that salient instead of keeping it reserve for later.

3. IA armored formations could open a new front near Shakargarh and Sialkot, 8 IABG will have a lot of front to cover which cannot be managed if 6th Armored Div is sent towards Jammu.

4. By sending 6th Armored Div east, PA will dissect IA formations by opening two fronts simultaneously, one at Jammu and one at Kathua/Pathankot/Gurdaspur through 6th Armd Div.

IMHO, a bad idea for the smaller force to divide its resources. They should concentrate everything into one consolidated push.

On the other side of the wall, I do hope that is what will happen.

5. IA will need to stop 6th Armored Div entering into India before it commits its forces to counter attack at Shakargarh-Sialkot axis.6th Armored will ensure that IA doesnt enter Shakargarh-Sialkot axis so this area will get defended automatically through offensive of 6th Armd Div, and the Div could also fall back if it needs to retreat and defend this area. Defense through offense basically.

6. 8 IABG and IABG's of XXX Corps are decent in numbers to provide armored force for attack on Jammu, supporting 1 or 2 PA infantry Divs.

 

[Nilgiri]

OK so @Gryphon wants the IA brigades for Artillery and AAD removed.

I spent a while making those AAD symbols .

Also I think the Artillery brigades for IA at LOC areas are important imo given there is no artillery division there.

I can update PA side for any independent artillery brigades and AAD brigades if they are roughly equivalent to how Joe has listed them for me on Indian side.

@Signalian @Joe Shearer tell me what you think.

Joe, msging you in the DM convo about the other stuff.

 

[Signalian]

OK so @Gryphon wants the IA brigades for Artillery and AAD removed.

I spent a while making those AAD symbols .

Also I think the Artillery brigades for IA at LOC areas are important imo given there is no artillery division there.

I can update PA side for any independent artillery brigades and AAD brigades if they are roughly equivalent to how Joe has listed them for me on Indian side.

@Signalian @Joe Shearer tell me what you think.

Joe, msging you in the DM convo about the other stuff.

Go ahead and put those Bde's.

 

[Nilgiri]

Go ahead and put those Bde's.

OK can you list any on Pakistan side for me too? (Indepndent Arty and AAD brigades) Or at least the most prominent ones that you think will play the biggest role etc.

I know gryphon mentioned few earlier already...lets pick which ones we want on the map:

• There exist Arty Bdes and Air Defence Bdes under most Corps HQ's.

• 1 Strike Corps & 5 (holding) Corps have an Arty Div each.

• There are 2x Air Defence Divisions in PA, subordinate to a separate Corps-equivalent HQ.

• I excluded engineer, signals and other support units from ORBAT in post #132.

i.e:

Clarification of point 1 needed.

Point 2, both PA arty divs are on map (one at gujranwala, one near Sukkur)

Point 3 clarification, AD division? @Joe Shearer Does India have something like this?

Point 4, I could use some engineer brigade info for PA (at least the main prominent ones) since I have those on Indian side. Signals and support stuff we will ignore I think....just assume they are tagged with relevant formations.

@Gryphon I will make an iteration just for you without any brigades at all except IABGs.

 

[Joe Shearer]

OK so @Gryphon wants the IA brigades for Artillery and AAD removed.

I spent a while making those AAD symbols .

Also I think the Artillery brigades for IA at LOC areas are important imo given there is no artillery division there.

I can update PA side for any independent artillery brigades and AAD brigades if they are roughly equivalent to how Joe has listed them for me on Indian side.

@Signalian @Joe Shearer tell me what you think.

Joe, msging you in the DM convo about the other stuff.

Let it stay, I think. If there is war-gaming in the future of all this, then there could be a formal chin-wag on what goes in and what stays out. For now, more information is better than scrutinised and equated information.

OK can you list any on Pakistan side for me too? (Indepndent Arty and AAD brigades) Or at least the most prominent ones that you think will play the biggest role etc.

I know gryphon mentioned few earlier already...lets pick which ones we want on the map:

• There exist Arty Bdes and Air Defence Bdes under most Corps HQ's.

• 1 Strike Corps & 5 (holding) Corps have an Arty Div each.

• There are 2x Air Defence Divisions in PA, subordinate to a separate Corps-equivalent HQ.

• I excluded engineer, signals and other support units from ORBAT in post #132.

i.e:

Clarification of point 1 needed.

Point 2, both PA arty divs are on map (one at gujranwala, one near Sukkur)

Point 3 clarification, AD division? @Joe Shearer Does India have something like this?

Point 4, I could use some engineer brigade info for PA (at least the main prominent ones) since I have those on Indian side. Signals and support stuff we will ignore I think....just assume they are tagged with relevant formations.

@Gryphon I will make an iteration just for you without any brigades at all except IABGs.

On point 3, I've asked somebody; my understanding is that AD is left to a different service. Give me time to get a response.