Retaking Kashmir after 70 years

[Joe Shearer]

OK guys, need your input if you think this size/zoom level is ok (for base setting). Remember we can zoom in/zoom out as we want to (I just want to know if this size of symbols relative to the map is fine).

Any other inputs at this stage are always welcome. I made brigades smaller than divisions.

In the inset is the fully populated stuff for IA I have now.

@Signalian @Gryphon @Joe Shearer

When we have a final version all ready and proper, hopefully we can create a new dedicated ORBAT thread, have it pinned by mods etc.

@waz @WAJsal @Horus

Awaiting reactions from the other two. @[S]Gryphon[/S]Signalian has already crossed the Jammu Tawi and is well on the way to Patni Top.

 

[Signalian]

@[S]Gryphon[/S]Signalian has already crossed the Jammu Tawi and is well on the way to Patni Top.

What was that famous dialogue in that movie.... "You just hate me coz im Black" !!!

OK guys, need your input if you think this size/zoom level is ok (for base setting). Remember we can zoom in/zoom out as we want to (I just want to know if this size of symbols relative to the map is fine).

Any other inputs at this stage are always welcome. I made brigades smaller than divisions.

In the inset is the fully populated stuff for IA I have now.

@Signalian @Gryphon @Joe Shearer

When we have a final version all ready and proper, hopefully we can create a new dedicated ORBAT thread, have it pinned by mods etc.

@waz @WAJsal @Horus

Yar it seems good to me.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What was that famous dialogue in that movie.... "You just hate me coz im Black" !!!


Yar it seems good to me.

LOL.

Just waiting to spring my revised configuration on youse.

On the existing orbat, we are sitting ducks.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Pakistan has the rare advantage that the local population hates the forces of the area we want to invade. Pakistan should not go head on or there will be international condemnation and huge losses on both sides. Instead after America leaves Afghanistan pledge full support for the Kashmiri resistance and get all assets used to win the war in Afghanistan to concentrate on Kashmir. Get a big civil war started inside Kashmir, im talking an uprising like Syria or Afghanistan where Indian troops are having to defend from Pakistan and from behind in Kashmir. A huge weakening like this to India and than invade and take the Valley where the majority live. We dont need to rest of Kashmir just the valley so we can liberate them and join them to AJ/K and establish a permanent border. This is the best option.

So You admit that Pakistan is fighting the US in Afghanistan?
That might not be the smartest thing to do.
If the US has no more forces in Afghanistan, they might see the opportunity to get even.

 

[Nilgiri]

Got a few questions in the meantime I compiled as I plotted @Joe Shearer ....no rush and no biggie if you don't know (I've just gone and assumed a few things to get them on paper):

72nd MTN division in Pathankot? even though its under Eastern command?

Any info on the third MTN division in XVII Corps? I've left it out from the map for now...its a "?" in the orbat table.

MTN divisions in wiki ORBAT missing from list (and new ones on your list aren't present in the wiki)...is the wiki stuff outdated (i.e stuff has been re-organised etc)? You can see on the left hand side here:

340th mechanized brigade --- I am assuming its mechanized infantry brigade?

The seperately listed Armoured regiments in XVII Corps (Eastern)....should I include them? Right now not included.

Regarding 23rd ARMR and 4th ARMR brigades...are they independent (IABG) like the rest or just regular units assigned to the corps?

EDIT: Also are the map colours fine so far? Not too jarring? I used the more lighter coloured terrain so the red isnt too jarring with deep green etc.

 

[Signalian]

If the aim is Jammu, it should be a simultaneous assault from two sides - one by 8 IABG + 23 Inf Div + 17 or 37 Inf Div on Akhnoor (defender: 10 RAPID) through the Chicken's neck and the main offensive by 6 Armd Div + 19 IABG + 37 or 17 Inf Div + 2 Arty Div on Jammu through Charwa (defenders: 2 or 3 IABG's + 26 Inf Div).

8 and 15 Inf Div's may be used to defend Shakargarh from the Pathankot based 29 Inf Div. 30 Corps established a new Cantt at Pasrur few years back to better manage this area.

6th Armored will have more freedom in open areas and plains to operate than to converge at Jammu. 8 IABG can do the job. India will retaliate with full force to relieve Jammu .

6th Armored Div should be sent on offensive towards Kathua/Pathankot/Gurdaspur to block the roads leading upto Jammu:
1. Any Indian armored forces rushing to Jammu from Pathankot and beyond, have to be stopped.

2. An offensive by 6th Armd Div into India will force India to commit one of its Armd Divs into that salient instead of keeping it reserve for later.

3. IA armored formations could open a new front near Shakargarh and Sialkot, 8 IABG will have a lot of front to cover which cannot be managed if 6th Armored Div is sent towards Jammu.

4. By sending 6th Armored Div east, PA will dissect IA formations by opening two fronts simultaneously, one at Jammu and one at Kathua/Pathankot/Gurdaspur through 6th Armd Div.

5. IA will need to stop 6th Armored Div entering into India before it commits its forces to counter attack at Shakargarh-Sialkot axis.6th Armored will ensure that IA doesnt enter Shakargarh-Sialkot axis so this area will get defended automatically through offensive of 6th Armd Div, and the Div could also fall back if it needs to retreat and defend this area. Defense through offense basically.

6. 8 IABG and IABG's of XXX Corps are decent in numbers to provide armored force for attack on Jammu, supporting 1 or 2 PA infantry Divs.

 

[Nilgiri]

@Signalian @Joe Shearer @Gryphon

Everything on Joe's tables from both sides has been populated, here is sneak peek:

All that remains now is for me to put in some lines for networking the commands and corps etc and then export/compile the mega file. You can point out any corrections/inputs then.

Then I will update anything you guys want that was missed.

BTW for now I am ignoring specialised regiments and battalions etc (i.e anything lower than brigade level)...I will put them in later if we feel the need.

Right now are we missing any brigades from PAK side regarding Engineering and Anti-air out of interest? Joe didn't have any of those on his table.

EDIT: the bigger higher resolution file (of sneak peek) is on discord

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian @Joe Shearer @Gryphon

Everything on Joe's tables from both sides has been populated, here is sneak peek:

All that remains now is for me to put in some lines for networking the commands and corps etc and then export/compile the mega file. You can point out any corrections/inputs then.

Then I will update anything you guys want that was missed.

BTW for now I am ignoring specialised regiments and battalions etc (i.e anything lower than brigade level)...I will put them in later if we feel the need.

Right now are we missing any brigades from PAK side regarding Engineering and Anti-air out of interest? Joe didn't have any of those on his table.

EDIT: the bigger higher resolution file (of sneak peek) is on discord

How come all three IA Armd Bdes are near Nagrota ?

 

[Nilgiri]

How come all three IA Armd Bdes are near Nagrota ?

The info on joe's table says they are under XVI Corps (Nagrota) under Northern Command. It is placeholder area for now because there is no specific location assigned to them....unless anyone can update more specific info for me etc.

In any wargaming you guys do I can easily move them around as you guys want. This is just master "peacetime" assignment. We will make any iterations as you guys want to.

 

[Signalian]

The info on joe's table says they are under XVI Corps (Nagrota) under Northern Command. It is placeholder area for now because there is no specific location assigned to them....unless anyone can update more specific info for me etc.

In any wargaming you guys do I can easily move them around as you guys want. This is just master "peacetime" assignment. We will make any iterations as you guys want to.

Oh yeah i would love to see @Joe Shearer sitting in a T-90 and leading those Armored Brigades into action from the front

A job well done @Nilgiri

 

[Nilgiri]

A job well done @Nilgiri

Thanks mate. This should be a resilient architecture for long term use (so the time invested now pays itself off easily and quickly I think). I will figure out a bit later best way to make it easily accessible for any interested forum users etc to use over time....in like a sandbox/playground format

 

[Gryphon]

Right now are we missing any brigades from PAK side regarding Engineering and Anti-air out of interest? Joe didn't have any of those on his table.

• There exist Arty Bdes and Air Defence Bdes under most Corps HQ's.

• 1 Strike Corps & 5 (holding) Corps have an Arty Div each.

• There are 2x Air Defence Divisions in PA, subordinate to a separate Corps-equivalent HQ.

• I excluded engineer, signals and other support units from ORBAT in post #132.

EDIT: I would suggest removing Arty/AD Bdes from the maps on both sides, though AD Divisions may be added (like Arty Div's).

How come all three IA Armd Bdes are near Nagrota ?

I feel the IA ORBAT Nilgiri is working on is somewhat broken.

26 Inf Div is based at Jammu, has to defend several approaches, but 16 Cavalry is there in Samba.

2× or 3× IABG's must be with 9 Corps (incl. the Samba based armd regiment).

The tank-passable terrain within 16 Corps limits is (west of) Akhnoor, where 10 RAPID is meant to operate.



BTW, PA has posted an SP Medium Regiment to Okara, a new formation is probably coming up.

 

[Signalian]

BTW, PA has posted an SP Medium Regiment to Okara, a new formation is probably coming up.

IABG ?

 

[Nilgiri]

• There exist Arty Bdes and Air Defence Bdes under most Corps HQ's.

• 1 Strike Corps & 5 (holding) Corps have an Arty Div each.

• There are 2x Air Defence Divisions in PA, subordinate to a separate Corps-equivalent HQ.

• I excluded engineer, signals and other support units from ORBAT in post #132.

EDIT: I would suggest removing Arty/AD Bdes from the maps on both sides, though AD Divisions may be added (like Arty Div's).



I feel the IA ORBAT Nilgiri is working on is somewhat broken.

26 Inf Div is based at Jammu, has to defend several approaches, but 16 Cavalry is there in Samba.

2× or 3× IABG's must be with 9 Corps (incl. the Samba based armd regiment).

The tank-passable terrain within 16 Corps limits is (west of) Akhnoor, where 10 RAPID is meant to operate.



BTW, PA has posted an SP Medium Regiment to Okara, a new formation is probably coming up.

Buddy, once I have the final draft version, please add all the arrows to move things around and cross things out and add any more info/units you want to see etc.

Then hopefully we can get consensus with @Joe Shearer and hopefully @jbgt90 too. @Vibrio will be bit busy and away for sometime.

Then I will give the final agreed release with all corrections. This was just using Joe Table as exercise to get familiar with the program I was using quickly.

With final release again, people can scribble lines on it etc as they want to...and I can update that to specific iterations etc.

 

[Signalian]

@Gryphon

PA formations are sometimes lesser in strength than IA. For an offensive, a division could be reinforced with brigades or battalions or company from other formations. This is very disappointing. A formation should be able to sustain its operations by itself, it should be given all such assets fully dedicated to it.

PA psyche is, if a formation is swelled up and is usually bigger than a regular formation, either attach more troops to it and start an offensive against an even bigger enemy formation otherwise start diluting it and bring it to regular sized formation strength and send its shaved off troops elsewhere. Conversely, If a formation is smaller than regular formation, start attaching paramilitary troops to it to make up the numbers.