Research Papers: Pakistani Aerospace Technologies

[Raider 21]

He taught us CFD and was also from CAE, basically recounted the same experiences, and told us how blessed we are to be NOT in CAE. And when discussing careers told us to run in opposite directions. Now in the US for Ph.D. To be honest we thought he was exaggerating and things couldn't be that screwed up.

Just to be clear this CAE would be the College of Aeronautical Engineering correct??
As I worked for an aerospace firm also called CAE, based in Canada

 

[HRK]

Based on what the members here are saying as per their experiences...I guess the only way out(somewhat) would be to start private companies(like for example Boeing or Hyundai but much much smaller)...
...where two things will be required
1) A few talented ppl who r willing to stay in the country and work for this company(despite income and perks being considerably less than some foreign opportunity). It would help immensely if they themselves held some stake in this company.
2) This company...whatever field it works in...must have some overlap between civilian R&D and products...and military R&D and products. So that it can continue to make profit...even if Pak military doesn't buy its products...and instead chooses some foreign option(or from the state owned enterprises like HIT, PAC, KSEW, etc). This is why I mentioned examples like Boeing or Hyundai...bcuz they research and develop products for civilian use...but some of that inevitably ends up benefitting them in developing products for use by the military. If the military does end up buying the products of this private company...well then even better as it will make them grow further.

...once these types of private ventures...make a foothold...they should be able to outcompete fauji minded inflexible state enterprises.

I know this discussion is going off topic from the main purpose of the thread...but I think it is a crucial discussion that we should have. Perhaps create a separate thread for it if necessary...
...while it's all good and fun when ppl make fun of Tejas, Arjun, etc.(products resulting from the same problems we r discussing...in their state owned entities), we ignore how fast India's private companies like Tata are making progress. They have vast amount of resources and talent...that they are gearing towards providing solutions to their military..added to that is the willingness of established defense companies(from all over the world) to make partnership with these Indian companies...in return for big orders or for JV type projects...
...this gives them a further jump start. If this continues...and Pakistan's private sector remains in the sorry state we r in...
...soon they will be laughing at our equivalents of Tejas, Arjun(or whatever our state owned entities can cook up)...all the while they will have their own equivalents of Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Boeing, etc.

@JamD @SQ8 @S A L M A N. @Quwa @Raider 21 @Akh1112 @messiach
@Blacklight @HRK @Dazzler

creation of civilian companies and then successful products based on the R&D by those companies would take lots of fund and time, middle path is the introduction of Civilian Management from within the Industry with high security clearance.

If we could have civilian scientist and engineers in nuclear & missile fields then why not we could replicate the same model in other fields such as Aeronautics and other

 

[Cookie Monster]

creation of civilian companies and then successful products based on the R&D by those companies would take lots of fund and time, middle path is the introduction of Civilian Management from within the Industry with high security clearance.

If we could have civilian scientist and engineers in nuclear & missile fields then why not we could replicate the same model in other fields such as Aeronautics and other

My opinion differs slightly...in that the funding and time wouldn't be a problem if the private company isn't solely producing defense products.

For the specific goal of producing defense products...u would be hard pressed to find investors...in a country like Pakistan. It would be a huge cost...bcuz there isn't much to draw from, requirements of Pak military are often stringent, and it's not easy to setup/do business in Pakistan. It would be very discouraging...if their defense products are passed over for a Chinese equivalent(which considering the Chinese massive R&D budget and mass production...is likely to happen)...and hence foreseeing this...many would not step forward.

However...the chance is higher for investors to be interested if it is a company like Hyundai.
...as in a company for civilian consumer products...that should be given priority(by the government) over imported equivalents. This company can then branch out into making other electronics, or engines, etc. for military use...
...kind of like what we see in case of India...established giants that didn't start off with making products for the military...but now have the capital and infrastructure in place to take steps towards it.

 

[M.AsfandYar]

Just to be clear this CAE would be the College of Aeronautical Engineering correct??
As I worked for an aerospace firm also called CAE, based in Canada

yes

 

[JamD]

Based on what the members here are saying as per their experiences...I guess the only way out(somewhat) would be to start private companies(like for example Boeing or Hyundai but much much smaller)...
...where two things will be required
1) A few talented ppl who r willing to stay in the country and work for this company(despite income and perks being considerably less than some foreign opportunity). It would help immensely if they themselves held some stake in this company.
2) This company...whatever field it works in...must have some overlap between civilian R&D and products...and military R&D and products. So that it can continue to make profit...even if Pak military doesn't buy its products...and instead chooses some foreign option(or from the state owned enterprises like HIT, PAC, KSEW, etc). This is why I mentioned examples like Boeing or Hyundai...bcuz they research and develop products for civilian use...but some of that inevitably ends up benefitting them in developing products for use by the military. If the military does end up buying the products of this private company...well then even better as it will make them grow further.

...once these types of private ventures...make a foothold...they should be able to outcompete fauji minded inflexible state enterprises.

I know this discussion is going off topic from the main purpose of the thread...but I think it is a crucial discussion that we should have. Perhaps create a separate thread for it if necessary...
...while it's all good and fun when ppl make fun of Tejas, Arjun, etc.(products resulting from the same problems we r discussing...in their state owned entities), we ignore how fast India's private companies like Tata are making progress. They have vast amount of resources and talent...that they are gearing towards providing solutions to their military..added to that is the willingness of established defense companies(from all over the world) to make partnership with these Indian companies...in return for big orders or for JV type projects...
...this gives them a further jump start. If this continues...and Pakistan's private sector remains in the sorry state we r in...
...soon they will be laughing at our equivalents of Tejas, Arjun(or whatever our state owned entities can cook up)...all the while they will have their own equivalents of Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Boeing, etc.

@JamD @SQ8 @S A L M A N. @Quwa @Raider 21 @Akh1112 @messiach
@Blacklight @HRK @Dazzler

Thank you for trying to find a solution. Most of us like to point out the problem and give up.

What you have is suggested has been on the minds of at least 30 percent of all aerospace and aerospace-adjacent grads in Pakistan. Of course there are issues with even what you suggested:
1. People who stay back and work for the company for low pay: Having worked in private Pakistani companies as an engineer the pay is going to be 30k? 50k at max? And if it's your business probably -40k indefinitely. Outisde of motivational speaker stories and movies, usually it's rich people that can afford to do these things. If my father was well established and could afford to support me till I was 30 then I too would be able to take all of those risk. A relevant quote:

2. Pakistan's economy is in general pretty bad and getting much worse. Investors are taking money out not putting it in. So it will be next to impossible to get money in the AEROSPACE sector (not talking about IT).
3. Aerospace is in general a very investment heavy sector. Which is why it has almost always been state controlled or state subsidized (at least initially). So as unfortunate as it sounds, the government does really need to make policies to support this sector and not just keep supporting the sugar mills industry. This means carrot AND stick:
a. Carrot: government orders, government subsidies, government grants.
b. Stick: Discouraging investment in unproductive sectors like real estate - but of course Malik Riaz will have the government out of power before that ever happens.
4. There is NO contract enforcement in Pakistan. This is a pretty huge factor that people don't realize. In Pakistan, if my tomorrow my partner runs away with the company's money I have little recourse. Do I really want to fight an endless battle in court till I die? Because that's what will happen. Contract enforcement is huge for business to thrive. Only very large businesses who can buy their way through things or small business that have arrangements can survive. This is primarily the reason why almost all Pakistani businesses are family businesses. You tend to trust family because things run on trust here, not on contracts.

My opinion differs slightly...in that the funding and time wouldn't be a problem if the private company isn't solely producing defense products.

You would think so, right? Here are the investor's options because of the environment in Pakistan:
1. Buy a plot get 10% rate of return forever
2. Invest in a business get 0% for 5 years after which maybe 10% or the business fails.
It's a no brainer what a Pakistani with money chooses.

For the specific goal of producing defense products...u would be hard pressed to find investors...in a country like Pakistan. It would be a huge cost...bcuz there isn't much to draw from, requirements of Pak military are often stringent, and it's not easy to setup/do business in Pakistan. It would be very discouraging...if their defense products are passed over for a Chinese equivalent(which considering the Chinese massive R&D budget and mass production...is likely to happen)...and hence foreseeing this...many would not step forward.

A relevant post I think:

Couple of things.
1. For military projects I dont think the government decides any direction. I don't think a civilian government decided we needed Ra'ad or Shahpar or something. It was the military that decided it.
2. The military with its influence on all military production actively stifles private enterprise with the thinking being some combination of:
a. Private military stuff is considered a security threat
b. The military loses some money and influence it has with its monopoly over the industry.
c. Pakistan's non existent contract enforcement system in case a private company reneges on a contract.
d. It thinks it can do better and goes if the private sector can make it we can too so we should, why pay the private sector?
You can see why I said Pakistani military industry is very communist in nature.
3. Doing research for very specific system development and changing and dropping what you're doing when the winds blow a different direction is a terrible way to do research. Little successful research work happens that way. Research requires some persistence. I don't even think that happens in our system. It would be a very stupid stupid thing to do and would be another reason to leave research to researchers rather than soldiers.
4. I agree ZAB was the worst thing to happen to all kinds of private enterprise in Pakistan and who knows we might have had a vibrant private defense industry had ZAB not messed it all up.

I don't think it has to do with our requirements. The mindset is "we control this and we will continue to control it". The military ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES military research by private companies by stealing their IP and having made-up security restrictions on what you can and cannot do.

However...the chance is higher for investors to be interested if it is a company like Hyundai.
...as in a company for civilian consumer products...that should be given priority(by the government) over imported equivalents. This company can then branch out into making other electronics, or engines, etc. for military use...
...kind of like what we see in case of India...established giants that didn't start off with making products for the military...but now have the capital and infrastructure in place to take steps towards it.

I've already written about why Pakistan cannot have a Hyundai under the current environment.

 

[JamD]

Just to be clear this CAE would be the College of Aeronautical Engineering correct??
As I worked for an aerospace firm also called CAE, based in Canada

Yes NUST-CAE Risalpur.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Thank you for trying to find a solution. Most of us like to point out the problem and give up.

What you have is suggested has been on the minds of at least 30 percent of all aerospace and aerospace-adjacent grads in Pakistan. Of course there are issues with even what you suggested:
1. People who stay back and work for the company for low pay: Having worked in private Pakistani companies as an engineer the pay is going to be 30k? 50k at max? And if it's your business probably -40k indefinitely. Outisde of motivational speaker stories and movies, usually it's rich people that can afford to do these things. If my father was well established and could afford to support me till I was 30 then I too would be able to take all of those risk. A relevant quote:
View attachment 786920
2. Pakistan's economy is in general pretty bad and getting much worse. Investors are taking money out not putting it in. So it will be next to impossible to get money in the AEROSPACE sector (not talking about IT).
3. Aerospace is in general a very investment heavy sector. Which is why it has almost always been state controlled or state subsidized (at least initially). So as unfortunate as it sounds, the government does really need to make policies to support this sector and not just keep supporting the sugar mills industry. This means carrot AND stick:
a. Carrot: government orders, government subsidies, government grants.
b. Stick: Discouraging investment in unproductive sectors like real estate - but of course Malik Riaz will have the government out of power before that ever happens.
4. There is NO contract enforcement in Pakistan. This is a pretty huge factor that people don't realize. In Pakistan, if my tomorrow my partner runs away with the company's money I have little recourse. Do I really want to fight an endless battle in court till I die? Because that's what will happen. Contract enforcement is huge for business to thrive. Only very large businesses who can buy their way through things or small business that have arrangements can survive. This is primarily the reason why almost all Pakistani businesses are family businesses. You tend to trust family because things run on trust here, not on contracts.

You would think so, right? Here are the investor's options because of the environment in Pakistan:
1. Buy a plot get 10% rate of return forever
2. Invest in a business get 0% for 5 years after which maybe 10% or the business fails.
It's a no brainer what a Pakistani with money chooses.


A relevant post I think:

I don't think it has to do with our requirements. The mindset is "we control this and we will continue to control it". The military ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES military research by private companies by stealing their IP and having made-up security restrictions on what you can and cannot do.



I've already written about why Pakistan cannot have a Hyundai under the current environment.

A well thought out response. Much appreciated bcuz I have no insights in this regard(I have been away from Pakistan for a long time...my family, extended family, etc. are all here in the US)...
...so while it's insightful to know how things are done...it's also depressing. Perhaps ignorance is bliss. In any case...whatever the solution(s) maybe...Pakistan needs the private sector to be working in tandem with the military...
...I fear in a few decades we will see India's private sector bloom(the companies that are just starting to venture into defense products)...and that is worrisome.

 

[JamD]

...I fear in a few decades we will see India's private sector bloom(the companies that are just starting to venture into defense products)...and that is worrisome.

Exactly! Something tells me even then the forum will remain in denial and call everything they do substandard/copy etc.

 

[Pak Nationalist]

Thank you for trying to find a solution. Most of us like to point out the problem and give up.

What you have is suggested has been on the minds of at least 30 percent of all aerospace and aerospace-adjacent grads in Pakistan. Of course there are issues with even what you suggested:
1. People who stay back and work for the company for low pay: Having worked in private Pakistani companies as an engineer the pay is going to be 30k? 50k at max? And if it's your business probably -40k indefinitely. Outisde of motivational speaker stories and movies, usually it's rich people that can afford to do these things. If my father was well established and could afford to support me till I was 30 then I too would be able to take all of those risk. A relevant quote:
View attachment 786920
2. Pakistan's economy is in general pretty bad and getting much worse. Investors are taking money out not putting it in. So it will be next to impossible to get money in the AEROSPACE sector (not talking about IT).
3. Aerospace is in general a very investment heavy sector. Which is why it has almost always been state controlled or state subsidized (at least initially). So as unfortunate as it sounds, the government does really need to make policies to support this sector and not just keep supporting the sugar mills industry. This means carrot AND stick:
a. Carrot: government orders, government subsidies, government grants.
b. Stick: Discouraging investment in unproductive sectors like real estate - but of course Malik Riaz will have the government out of power before that ever happens.
4. There is NO contract enforcement in Pakistan. This is a pretty huge factor that people don't realize. In Pakistan, if my tomorrow my partner runs away with the company's money I have little recourse. Do I really want to fight an endless battle in court till I die? Because that's what will happen. Contract enforcement is huge for business to thrive. Only very large businesses who can buy their way through things or small business that have arrangements can survive. This is primarily the reason why almost all Pakistani businesses are family businesses. You tend to trust family because things run on trust here, not on contracts.

You would think so, right? Here are the investor's options because of the environment in Pakistan:
1. Buy a plot get 10% rate of return forever
2. Invest in a business get 0% for 5 years after which maybe 10% or the business fails.
It's a no brainer what a Pakistani with money chooses.


A relevant post I think:

I don't think it has to do with our requirements. The mindset is "we control this and we will continue to control it". The military ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES military research by private companies by stealing their IP and having made-up security restrictions on what you can and cannot do.



I've already written about why Pakistan cannot have a Hyundai under the current environment.

It all shrinks down to economics and always. Those afflicted by problems of hunger and familial murderous conflicts (civil-military tug of war in the country) do not have the luxury (resources or focus) to aspire for the stuff that actually matters. This country's redemption lies in economic growth backed by a sustainable political system where some ground rules are beyond being trampled over no matter how powerful any institution is.

A side note, some of the people on this very thread have alluded to PAF working on some ground-shaking stuff and people would find about it one day. There appears to be some contradiction however when the same people specify deep troubles in the institutions that are responsible for developing solutions. I wonder if those comments are sarcastic in nature because, with the institutional cultures defined in the comments above, it is unrealistic to expect something of note like homegrown SSCMs, SAMs, BVRAAMs, EW/ECM suites, etc coming out of these organizations.

 

[Adecypher]

Well this the kind of thread which I was looking for a long time. I will definitely give a deep dive into the info presented in the OP and might ask few questions.

 

[Metal 0-1]

@JamD Can you provide me the SWOT(Strength Weakness Opportunities Threats) analysis of PAC or any other related organization.

For a college project.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It all shrinks down to economics and always. Those afflicted by problems of hunger and familial murderous conflicts (civil-military tug of war in the country) do not have the luxury (resources or focus) to aspire for the stuff that actually matters. This country's redemption lies in economic growth backed by a sustainable political system where some ground rules are beyond being trampled over no matter how powerful any institution is.

A side note, some of the people on this very thread have alluded to PAF working on some ground-shaking stuff and people would find about it one day. There appears to be some contradiction however when the same people specify deep troubles in the institutions that are responsible for developing solutions. I wonder if those comments are sarcastic in nature because, with the institutional cultures defined in the comments above, it is unrealistic to expect something of note like homegrown SSCMs, SAMs, BVRAAMs, EW/ECM suites, etc coming out of these organizations.

I'd say the PAF, at an operational level, is trying to work on 'ground-breaking' stuff, but through imports from China. The domestic R&D base isn't doing much to support those aspirations.

 

[JamD]

@JamD Can you provide me the SWOT(Strength Weakness Opportunities Threats) analysis of PAC or any other related organization.

For a college project.

It would be an interesting excercise but unfortunately these are some very busy days for me. I'm sure all the information one would need is scattered around the forum in posts by members that you can trust. You will have to do the actual compilation yourself since I'm pretty swamped with work.

 

[JamD]

I'd say the PAF, at an operational level, is trying to work on 'ground-breaking' stuff, but through imports from China. The domestic R&D base isn't doing much to support those aspirations.

Just to add some context to this observation.

PAF used to have AWC to do R&D. However, with the establishment of NESCOM, AWC was put under it. This took away PAF's "R&D arm". PAF was left with PAC, which is a manufacturing/overhaul arm with limited R&D capacity. There was an R&D shaped hole in the PAF that AvRID hoped to fill. AvRID is struggling to do this for the following reasons:
1. AvRID has to reinvent the wheel for a lot of things and information/tech doesn't flow freely between the SPD AWC and PAF AvRID.
2. AvRID's future is uncertain in the eyes of the PAF high command and thus its civillian employees are on annual contracts. This isn't great for talent retention but this isn't such a huge deal, just an indicator.
3. "AvRID's ego is writing checks that it's R&D cannot cash" It has aimed for the stars but it isn't nearly as funded or have enough across the board buy in.
4. There are opponents to AvRID inside of PAF itself.

However, I think AvRID is a break from the norm (in several important R&D aspects) that should survive at all costs, regardless of what (if anything) it produces. But I fear that it might be axed primarily because it is so different and there's a major mismatch in goals/capabilities, which will lead to terrible performance reviews for it.

 

[Metal 0-1]

It would be an interesting excercise but unfortunately these are some very busy days for me. I'm sure all the information one would need is scattered around the forum in posts by members that you can trust. You will have to do the actual compilation yourself since I'm pretty swamped with work.

Just guide me in good direction