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Reorientation And Restructuring of Pakistan Army

Hi,

You should be thankful to observe the fasting in your air conditioned rooms but still some people whine that roza lag reha hai, have a look at the uniformed men especially those in the war theatres in the north.... and think of those observing the holy month in the most tough conditions and its not like that , that they cant afford the luxuries of life but our men chosen this for mother country and you. Least you cud do is to support them.

Be grateful to the men out in the scorching outdoors to ensure your safety in your comfy indoors.



is he playing golf or driving around in luxury car?


22889725241094477928111.jpg




(i cropped the picture intentionally)

Abu I have utmost respecty for those who are sitting in uncomfortable environs and protecting this country. Having said that i also have utmost respect for the mazdoor on the road who carries all the cement on his back in this heat to build a high-rise that he can never even dream of entering on its completion. So let's not play the pity card here?

A few big, bad fish have broguht disrepute to the services, and the brigadier in his OP has given ample solutions to bringing back the forces to its actual purpose. I once again urge you to read what the brigadier wrote. Please. That's critique from the inside - and from the civilians. Or wait, critique will be dismissed altogether?
 
Start a new thread about politicians sitting on their pots of gold, and I'd be more than willing to join you there to bash them.

This is about teh army - I think you thanked the OP without even reading what the brigadier's suggestions were. "NLC scam, no ostentatipus display, limiting attending weddings an functions' - read, read, there is much to learn.


What is wrong is wrong. And stays so.

couldnt agree with you more on that.....btw ostentatious display ban has been around and encouraged for some time now. No new news.
 
Abu I have utmost respecty for those who are sitting in uncomfortable environs and protecting this country. Having said that i also have utmost respect for the mazdoor on the road who carries all the cement on his back in this heat to build a high-rise that he can never even dream of entering on its completion. So let's not play the pity card here?

A few big, bad fish have broguht disrepute to the services, and the brigadier in his OP has given ample solutions to bringing back the forces to its actual purpose. I once again urge you to read what the brigadier wrote. Please. That's critique from the inside - and from the civilians. Or wait, critique will be dismissed altogether?

i encourage critique, i encourage constructive criticism.

as for the article...for God's sake i wont comment on something if i hadn't read it. Why would I want to thank something if it could come back to haunt me or make me look like a fool.

as for "pity card" that wasnt what i was asking for...i was simply reasoning with yo. The mazdoor is even worse off; he isnt dying for his country but he's 'dying' to support himself and his family only.



i dont want ANY of you on this forum to think im just blindly defending or clinging on to something just for sake of it......if you know me well enough (which none of you do) you wuud know that I am biggest proponent for making amends where and when they fit the interests of Army and interest of nation as a whole. Army is answerable to Pakistan, and in recent times this is becoming more and more the case --unlike in the past where there was less oversight and more instances (whether isolated or commonly occuring) fiscal or administrative 'mismanagements' or 'misallocations' or 'mis-use'
 
I have a serious question for this important discussion: What is the difference between education and indoctrination as far as a military mind is concerned? Exactly what do the Staff College courses and promotions impart?


Command and staff courses are offered to the selected officers that pass the initial entry exams to be trained as future command and staff officers that determine the future leaders of the armed forces with abilities and attitudes that stand them apart and on top of the other officers.

Primarily it is the major ranks that after 13 years of service sit in the entry exams to qualify for the staff course, without staff college an officer has no prospect to make it beyond Lt. Col and that too is in exceptional cases. Those that do very well in staff college Quetta are then offered American or British staff course as well. War course for colonels and Brigadiers is yet another program for the future military top brass and like staff course gives the option to the good career officers the American / British version too.

Pakistan army Staff college Quetta attracts officers from all friendly nations of the East and west and sends its own officers aboard as well because we share the military foundations it involves the military doctrines, strategies , innovative thinking, comprehension of socio-political implications and superior analytical skills from operational to strategic levels in the ever changing fluid nature of war military science and history form the essential part of the course and the graduates are given Bsc degree in war studies.

Re military, As far as the indoctrination is concerned, its what makes a soldier out of a civilian and education/training is what different courses and programs through out the service provide the military personnel the necessary skills to make them a professional & trained fighting force that wont cower under constant and relentless fire from machine guns shock waves from 105mm to 300mm blasts and accept death as an occupational hazard so the tantrums, sarcasm and trolling done with malicious intent or out of habit are the last worry for them
 
Hi,

You should be thankful to observe the fasting in your air conditioned rooms but still some people whine that roza lag reha hai, have a look at the uniformed men especially those in the war theatres in the north.... and think of those observing the holy month in the most tough conditions and its not like that , that they cant afford the luxuries of life but our men chosen this for mother country and you. Least you cud do is to support them.

Be grateful to the men out in the scorching outdoors to ensure your safety in your comfy indoors.



is he playing golf or driving around in luxury car?


22889725241094477928111.jpg




(i cropped the picture intentionally)





^^^ ................. and the best way to hide the corruption of purpose is to wrap a flag over it all!

(An old and favored trick.)
 
Command and staff courses are offered to the selected officers that pass the initial entry exams to be trained as future command and staff officers that determine the future leaders of the armed forces with abilities and attitudes that stand them apart and on top of the other officers.

Primarily it is the major ranks that after 13 years of service sit in the entry exams to qualify for the staff course, without staff college an officer has no prospect to make it beyond Lt. Col and that too is in exception cases. Those that do very well in staff college Quetta are then offered American or British staff course as well. War course for colonels and Brigadiers is yet another program for the future military top brass and like staff course gives the option to the good career officers the American / British version too.

Pakistan army Staff college Quetta attracts officers from all friendly nation countries of the East and west and sends its own officers aboard as well because we share the military foundations it involves the military doctrines, strategies , innovative thinking, comprehension of socio-political implications and superior analytical skills from operational to strategic levels in the ever changing fluid nature of war military science and history form the essential part of the course and the graduates are given Bsc degree in war studies.

Re military, As far as the indoctrination is concerned, its what makes a soldier out of a civilian and education/training is what different courses and programs through out the service provide the military personnel the necessary skills to make them a professional & trained fighting force that wont cower under constant and relentless fire from machine guns shock waves from 105mm to 300mm blasts and accept death as an occupational hazard so the tantrums, sarcasm and trolling done with malicious intent or out of habit are the last worry for them

My point exactly.

It is either only technical expertise or indoctrination that the military mind imbibes, there is no real education. And yet they pretend to understand matters they have never been taught or trained in.
 
My point exactly.

It is either only technical expertise or indoctrination that the military mind imbibes, there is no real education. And yet they pretend to understand matters they have never been taught or trained in.

You are bringing in sociology/anthropology/philosophy.

What is the difference between education and literacy?

If someone understands the key difference, this country let alone this army would be steering the ship on another bearing.
 
You are bringing in sociology/anthropology/philosophy.

What is the difference between education and literacy?

If someone understands the key difference, this country let alone this army would be steering the ship on another bearing.

Madam, I think you and I understand each other's points quite well. :D
 
Taimi

So I was hanging out with this major (US Army) radar guy -- Phd, and working on another in a different field - and there were so many others, so well educated, especially technical education - most impressive and so many of them - just a broad, deep foundation of terribly well educated officers, they reflect where the army is in terms of capablities, especially technical and industrial know how.
@MUSE

you are right, quality education must be a priorty. quality education would mean quality officers, i don't mean to say that there aren't any quality officers in the army, but with more emphasis on education the individual & general level of quality & capabilty would certainly improve. Also army being the only disiplined & well fucntioning institution in pakistan the overall intellectual pool would increase which would have benefits for the country beyond the military sphere. I would also like to see an increase in knowledge or intellect in jawans, i am sure with some effort & right policies this can be achieved.
 
I had almost 200 strong Infantry Workshop Company (EME) doing the job what 10-15 persons would be doing in the private sector. Similarly huge establishment of RV & FC needs new challenges in not becoming an unnecessary burden in this modern era. Most of their present tasks can be better performed by the private sector.
Indian Armed Forces are going in for outsourcing repairs and maintenance of vehicles to private agencies in peace areas. This reduces manpower considerably which can gainfully be employed elsewhere or reduce overall manpower requirement, thus improving the teeth to tail ratio.

For eg, the US Forces contract all maintenance to private companies, whether it's maintaining and repairing combat equipment for deploying military units or performing maintenance on U.N. peacekeeping vehicles.
These include wheeled and tracked vehicles, infantry and tactical vehicles, tanks, artillery and air defense systems, rotary and fixed-wing aircraft, radar and communication systems, as well as special purpose equipment.
 
quality education must be a priorty. quality education would mean quality officers,...emphasis on education the individual & general level of quality & capabilty would certainly improve. .. the overall intellectual pool would increase which would have benefits for the country beyond the military sphere. I would also like to see an increase in knowledge or intellect in jawans, i am sure with some effort & right policies this can be achieved.

This is why we have repeatedly called for more schools in the armed forces --- Does education makes one smarter, better able to function in the kinds of environments that are being created? and Is a smarter soldier is an inestimable good?? The institutional answer to these question, I suppose, will move this idea further... or not.

And it's not just the kinds of war these soldiers will face but also the capabilities of the armed forces, it's also an acknowledgement that for many servicemen, officers and enlisted, there is life and employment in defense related production, research and development and maintenance, after their careers in service.
 
what you 'civilians' may call 'education', we army apologists call 'training'.


Training

Training is the overall responsibility of the Inspector General, Training and Evaluation (IG T&E) in GHQ. The army relies largely on the efficient regimental system whereby each infantry regiment has its own training center, as have other arms and services. Initial training of officers (now including females in other than the Medical Corps) is conducted mainly at the Pakistan Military Academy at Kakul, Abbotabad. Standards are adequate, although the course is too short, and emphasis has to be placed on instruction in the English language.

Regimental and special-to-arms and -services training is of a high standard but there is much learning by rote, which tends to reduce initiative. Instruction at army schools (such as the School of Infantry and Tactics at Quetta) is impressive and courses are conducted efficiently. This also applies to the Command and Staff College. Directing staff are high quality and the syallabus is sound. However, the culture of chappa- an anxiety to conform, resulting in emphasis on obtaining "correct" solutions from former students - produces careful, but imitative papers. Despite this, topic discussion is energetic, and the product is generally good.

Advanced technical training and graduate/post-graduate studies are carried out under the aegis of the National University of Sciences and Technology (NUST), which involves the Colleges of Medicine, Signals, Military Engg and Electrical and Mechanical Engg. These are linked with civilian, naval and airforce institutions and with Michigan State (US) and Cranfield (UK) universities.

Advanced courses for officers are conducted at National Defence University in Islamabad, of which the two main courses (August to June) are the National Defence Course (brigadiers and equivalent) and the Armed Forces War Course (lieutenant colonels and equivalent). Instruction is world standard.

Individual and collective training in units is conducted in an annual cycle, usually dictated by the timing of higher-level excercises. Sub-unit and unit excercises generally held in summer, with brigade and divisional manoeuveres after the harvest and in winter.

There has been emphasis on computer-based war gaming, with consequent improvement in staff work, especially in logistics. In the 1965 and 1971 wars, few formations were far from base facilities and supply dumps and it is only comparitively recently that battlefield recovery and practice in forward supply have been alotted the importance they deserve. Much training focuses on obstacle crossing, as there are extensive natural and manmade water barriers on both sides of the border, especially in Punjab.

Since 2001, following the invasion of Afghanistan, there has been a gradual than accelerating requirement to counter terrorism and insurgency, especially in, but far from limited to, Baluchistan and North West Frontier Province (NWFP). As the main task of the army was defence of the eastern border, and low level border control was almost exclusively the responsibility of the Pakistan Rangers and the Frontier Corps (the latter assisted by tribal irregulars), there was no particular emphasis on instruction in counter insurgency. When it became necessary to deploy formation HQ and units to the western regions it became apparent that such instruction was essential, and unit and sub-unit training was undertaken concurrently with modification of syllabi in army schools such as the School of Infantry and Tactics. It is expected that this emphasis will be maintained, given the senstivity of the western border regions and the decreasing likelihood of conflict with India (?).

i wish i had all of this when i was in service.....
 
This is why we have repeatedly called for more schools in the armed forces --- Does education makes one smarter, better able to function in the kinds of environments that are being created? and Is a smarter soldier is an inestimable good?? The institutional answer to these question, I suppose, will move this idea further... or not.

And it's not just the kinds of war these soldiers will face but also the capabilities of the armed forces, it's also an acknowledgement that for many servicemen, officers and enlisted, there is life and employment in defense related production, research and development and maintenance, after their careers in service.
@MUSE

YES, also our education system is an istigator for better education initiated by the armed services for it's recruites & officers, if it isn't then it should be.
often there is an argument that education isn't taken as seriously because the militaries prefer people which can be molded, shaped or taught to the specific nature & requirements of the military. although the need to have individuals which can be or should be trained to the specifc requirements of the miliatry is understandable & that sufficient training is given for the job required, but to argue that a good education is in someway a hindrance towards that objective is wrong.
atleast for me it is wrong.
warfare is rapidly moving towards complex technological tools & tactics employed for the use of those tools, so education especially technical is of vital importance for tommorow's theatre of operations. above all any knowledge is worth pursuing & making the effort to achieve it.
 
Other than the fact that commercial uses of appropriated land meant for military uses is a violation of the very purpose of their existence?

And how is utilizing land appropriated for military use (residences etc.) for commercial purposes, so long as the resources generated are directed back into 'military welfare programs' etc., a 'violation of the very purpose of their existence'?

Keep in mind that the land we are talking about is itself part of the military's 'soldier welfare programs', in that it is used to provide housing, schools and other non-combat related facilities to military personnel. Utilizing the same land for commercial purposes, so long as the funds generated are put back into other military welfare programs, is simply an extension of the original activity of acquiring the said land.

Now, if land was acquired for a training range or center, and then used for commercial purposes instead, without good reason as to why the original intent of acquiring the land was not followed through upon, then you could argue 'violation of purpose'.
 
Ayub wasn't selected by Liaquat. His nomination was done by his jiggar, Iskander Mirza, who had one foot in the Army and one in the ICS.

Semantics really - my point remains that the 'military dictators' Pakistan has seen have largely been the result of the civilians choosing to ignore seniority and qualifications in favor of perceived 'lackey's and pliant brown nosers', and preceiving themselves as 'Amir-ul-Momineen' who cannot be challenged, 'ZA Bhutto the bigot and hatemonger' included (delicious irony in that Bhutto the bigot was overthrown and killed by Zia the bigot - Ahmadi's should have some satisfaction in that at least).

And as I pointed out elsewhere - 'lackeys and brown-nosers' have inherent character flaws which lead to them acting as 'lackey's' - rather dangerous to entrust these individuals with the kind of power the COAS commands, and the civvies have paid the price for choosing to depart from the most qualified candidate.
 

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