Religious differences break out again

[KS]

The fact is that your friend made a false statement and was caught in the Act, as it were. Gallant of you to try to rebuild a broken field.

You are reading too much into what I said. I have explicitly stated that Owaisi has not been convicted as such, but just charged till now. Quit being paranoid.

 

[KS]

'The temple has been there for centuries'

BJP Leader Kishan Reddy has stated that there are Endowment Records which prove that the idol has been there for 200 years and that the records have been submitted to the police. So I will reserve my judgement on that.

'The temple's name Bhagyalaxmi is the reason why Hyderabad got its name'(!!facepalm. They eat their own propaganda here. If there was a temple that old, it would be called something like Pochamma, Maisamma etc., not Bhagyalakshmi)

Irrelevant issue.

'Charminar was built over a temple'
and several other excuses like 'There is a lot of space between the temple and Charminar'.

I'll admit, I dont have proof for the "built over part". But given various incidents, why do you think that is not possible ? Now no one ask for any demolition as such, and if they ask, I dont support that catcall. But still why do you think that is impossible ? Have no structures been built upon destroyed temples ?

The fact remains: The temple is/was an encroachment on Charminar(As you know, it is an old trick, build a temple and then claim it), a historical monument.

How can it be an encroachment when it was built before the law that made it an 'encroachment' came upon ?

Just because it was left unchecked does not mean it should go on.

Does that apply to all other religious structures also or only to mandirs ?

The least that can be done is to prevent extravagant constructions around it.

The 'extravagant constructions' had been there for years. Why suddenly rake up the issue ? No one got hurt all these years and Hyderabad was functioning just as normal. Why the bellyache suddenly ?

There are a whole range of compromises possible like shifting the temple away from Charminar.

Just because MIM find it 'unacceptable' to have a Hindu mandir near 'their' structures or in Old city does not mean they are correct. They have to learn to live with it. And right or wrong,acquiescing with this demand would only further their thinking that any demand could be enforced with the right amount of violence.

It has to be drilled into their thick skull that violence is not a solution, no matter how 'rightful' they may be.

This seems to be the position taken by MIM and I find it acceptable.

They also want to offer salams at the chilla in Charminar and then pray at the top of Char Minar which they insist is a masjid. You find that acceptable ?

But people are getting pushed into two alternative worlds with alternative histories, one of them has the above lines as facts in it. No wonder they will fight in the streets; they have no idea what the other side thinks.

The Indian state is in a way responsible for that.

 

[KS]

Dude! the law prohibiting constructions around monuments was there since 1950s..

http://asi.nic.in/pdf_data/6.pdf

Here is the law -

In this law protected area is defined as any archaeological site and remains
which is declared to be of national importance by or under this Act;

which if I am not wrong means the structure itself is in a protected area and makes no reference to the area around the structure. This is no open and shut case for you to decide if its illegal or not and is open to wide legal interpretations.

Owaisi says the non-Bodo muslims there are not Bangladeshis, but Indians. Many journalists agree with this. And almost all agree that not all non-Bodos are illegals. Many have been living there since independence. His statement about radicalization is shady - It could a warning like he claimed it is. He clarified the statement later.

I checked to see if he tweeted those two you mentioned. Found nothing!
https://twitter.com/asadowaisi
But here is one of his tweets:


I don't know about the bans on the processions, so I cannot comment.

Asad owaisi is not akbaruddin owaisi and there is a provision in twitter to delete tweets. The guy you quoted was referring to the younger owaisi and you are referring to the older owaisi.

 

[rubyjackass]

BJP Leader Kishan Reddy has stated that there are Endowment Records which prove that the idol has been there for 200 years and that the records have been submitted to the police. So I will reserve my judgement on that.

We have photos showing Charminar without the temple or idol where it is now. This is what I was basing my arguments on. Well,now you are reserving the judgement. Good to know.

Irrelevant issue.
I'll admit, I dont have proof for the "built over part". But given various incidents, why do you think that is not possible ? Now no one ask for any demolition as such, and if they ask, I dont support that catcall. But still why do you think that is impossible ? Have no structures been built upon destroyed temples ?

My argument is this: What proof do you have of the destroyed temple? Even if a temple was destroyed(I don't consider it impossible at all), what is the point now? That became part of our history. Why would one want to go back to those days of madness?
If you start building temples on flimsy or even strong evidence, where does it stop?

How can it be an encroachment when it was built before the law that made it an 'encroachment' came upon ?
[/ QUOTE]
The law explicitly states all monuments have to be protected. Under any reasonable interpretation of it, the temple would be an encroachment. It is a different matter if somebody is afraid to call it out.

Does that apply to all other religious structures also or only to mandirs ?

My consistency is not for test here. What I say even if MIM says what I am saying, you should not be complain because they are bigots, because in this case, what they are saying is close to facts and so they have a genuine concern. Besides Charminar is a secular monument.

The 'extravagant constructions' had been there for years. Why suddenly rake up the issue ? No one got hurt all these years and Hyderabad was functioning just as normal. Why the bellyache suddenly ?

Just because MIM find it 'unacceptable' to have a Hindu mandir near 'their' structures or in Old city does not mean they are correct. They have to learn to live with it. And right or wrong,acquiescing with this demand would only further their thinking that any demand could be enforced with the right amount of violence.

MIM does not demand the removal of the temple(at least they did not until Diwali). Their concern is just that the temple is being expanded and that it may cause harm to Charminar. What I am saying is: The temple should be shifted to protect Charminar, especially if you are going to have so many worshippers flocking it.

It has to be drilled into their thick skull that violence is not a solution, no matter how 'rightful' they may be.

Of course.

They also want to offer salams at the chilla in Charminar and then pray at the top of Char Minar which they insist is a masjid. You find that acceptable ?

Again, my credentials are not at test here. As long as the guys do not touch and damage the structure of the historical monument I am fine with it. Visitors are allowed up the stair anyway, so what is the harm in letting a religious guy up there and say prayers without doing any damage.

The Indian state is in a way responsible for that.

No, the rumour mongers who spun the story of the temple having a history of 500 years are responsible for this. In the same breath they also claimed that the temple was at its current position from the time Charminar was built. This messup was lucky for rational minded people. More people do not believe in the BS any more. They understand it is a matter of protecting the cherished heritage of India.

But the sad part is there are still people living with this alternative history. I wish more investigative journalism will bring these people to face reality.

 

[Icewolf]

This happens in India every so often... What will happen is is the mosque will get torn down and the temple built over it... Hindutvadi and Shov Sena goons will rejoice after and Muslims will start violent riots, raj thackeray will call for banishment of Muslims from Mumbai and then another 1992 Mumbai riot

 

[Hindustani]

This happens in India every so often... What will happen is is the mosque will get torn down and the temple built over it... Hindutvadi and Shov Sena goons will rejoice after and Muslims will start violent riots, raj thackeray will call for banishment of Muslims from Mumbai and then another 1992 Mumbai riot

And more of your coward family members will leave

 

[Icewolf]

And more of your coward family members will leave

And your namard family which fled Kashmir?

 

[Hindustani]

And your namard family which fled Kashmir?

Nope my cousins and father's side are still there. My parents are moving back in a few years. And I, after finishing school here

 

[Icewolf]

Nope my cousins and father's side are still there. My parents are moving back in a few years. And I, after finishing school here

Are you gay? Stop winking at me

 

[rubyjackass]

http://asi.nic.in/pdf_data/6.pdf

Here is the law -

In this law protected area is defined as any archaeological site and remains
which is declared to be of national importance by or under this Act;

which if I am not wrong means the structure itself is in a protected area and makes no reference to the area around the structure. This is no open and shut case for you to decide if its illegal or not and is open to wide legal interpretations.

As I mentioned above, a rational interpretation of the law would make the temple an encroachment. For God's sakes, it is less than 10 ft away.

Asad owaisi is not akbaruddin owaisi and there is a provision in twitter to delete tweets. The guy you quoted was referring to the younger owaisi and you are referring to the older owaisi.

I could not even find any tweets attributed to the younger owaisi. The twitter account purported to be his(https://twitter.com/akbarowaisi) has no tweets at all.

Knowing how anti-nationals are witch hunted, it is very hard for me to believe in your tweet story. You have to prove it. As I have earlier said, Akbaruddin's life has nothing to do with this issue. It may be relevant for you to inform your view on the subject, like my view of BJP is informed from Hyderabad riots. But you at least should look for facts, otherwise we will just have another victim of propaganda.

@Joe Shearer: Thanks for the wiki entries.

There is a lot of difference between being charged and being convicted of a crime. That is why I call it a 'spin' and not outright lies. That is how our views are getting moderated.

Besides Akbaruddin's involvement in the suggested crimes is regarding a Muslim victim. Aren't Muslims suddenly not allowed to have tainted representative? That would be unfair to them in our country. His comments if any, regarding Taslma Nasreen are indeed lamentable. But doesn't that fit neatly in a country that hounded out Hussain from India. We are what we are. We need to change as a whole.

It is not my bigot vs his bigot. Let us try to get the bigots totally out of the picture.

 

[Hindustani]

Are you gay? Stop winking at me

Don't flatter yourself.

 

[KS]

As I mentioned above, a rational interpretation of the law would make the temple an encroachment. For God's sakes, it is less than 10 ft away.

What is 'rational' - that depends on the court and not on you or me. So as per law, the temple is completely legal unless the court rules otherwise and the court has NOT ruled otherwise and has stated very clearly the legality of the temple is NOT in question.

I could not even find any tweets attributed to the younger owaisi. The twitter account purported to be his(https://twitter.com/akbarowaisi) has no tweets at all.

Knowing how anti-nationals are witch hunted, it is very hard for me to believe in your tweet story. You have to prove it. As I have earlier said, Akbaruddin's life has nothing to do with this issue. It may be relevant for you to inform your view on the subject, like my view of BJP is informed from Hyderabad riots. But you at least should look for facts, otherwise we will just have another victim of propaganda.

What you would want to believe or not is not my problem sir. But the fact of the matter is the Owaisi clan is top rated bigoted blood chain who still have that Razakar streak in them. And what Hyderabad riots ? The Owaisis and MIM have been the cause for most riots in Hyderabad including the one in 90s and in '79.

 

[KS]

We have photos showing Charminar without the temple or idol where it is now. This is what I was basing my arguments on. Well,now you are reserving the judgement. Good to know.

I have never been presumptuous in assuming that the temple was indeed older than Char Minar. I have always stated that the temple had been place before the law preventing building of structures within 100 m was in place and hence it is legal. It is you who is asserting dismissively that there was no temple when the matter is sub-judice.

My argument is this: What proof do you have of the destroyed temple? Even if a temple was destroyed(I don't consider it impossible at all), what is the point now? That became part of our history. Why would one want to go back to those days of madness?
If you start building temples on flimsy or even strong evidence, where does it stop?

So if start destroying even legal temples just because they are 'near' Islamic structures then where does it stop ? What is the difference between Aurangazeb's mughal empire and secular India then ?

The law explicitly states all monuments have to be protected. Under any reasonable interpretation of it, the temple would be an encroachment. It is a different matter if somebody is afraid to call it out.

Thats what I said - there can be 'n' number of reasonable interpretations and the final interpretation rests with the court. And as the high court ruling, the legality of the temple is NOT in question. SO you need to revisit your assumptions and presumptions.

My consistency is not for test here. What I say even if MIM says what I am saying, you should not be complain because they are bigots, because in this case, what they are saying is close to facts and so they have a genuine concern. Besides Charminar is a secular monument.

How can it be a secular structure if they call it Masjid-e-charminar ?

MIM does not demand the removal of the temple(at least they did not until Diwali). Their concern is just that the temple is being expanded and that it may cause harm to Charminar. What I am saying is: The temple should be shifted to protect Charminar, especially if you are going to have so many worshippers flocking it.

The temple was not expanded. Give rest to that propaganda. What was done was the tarpaulin which covered the temple got old and was being changed. Also for the upcoming Deepavali season some decorations were being made. No expansion whatsoever was made. And the worshippers who come to the temple are in no way harming the temple unless ofcourse the Carbon dioxide they exhale is damaging the structure.

Again, my credentials are not at test here. As long as the guys do not touch and damage the structure of the historical monument I am fine with it. Visitors are allowed up the stair anyway, so what is the harm in letting a religious guy up there and say prayers without doing any damage.

So how does this offering namaz gel with your claim that Char Minar is a secular monument ? And how can one offer Namaz without touching the structure ? And what damage can the worshippers coming to a temple which is not even in physical contact with the structure do which will not be done by the namazees who do that on top of the structure ?

No, the rumour mongers who spun the story of the temple having a history of 500 years are responsible for this. In the same breath they also claimed that the temple was at its current position from the time Charminar was built. This messup was lucky for rational minded people. More people do not believe in the BS any more. They understand it is a matter of protecting the cherished heritage of India.

But the sad part is there are still people living with this alternative history. I wish more investigative journalism will bring these people to face reality.

That is what I said by, "let us reserve our judgement on the issue". And moreover the editorial in Hindu has been panned even by the APCC president Niranjan saying it was false and fabricated.

And what I meant by "the Indian state is also responsible for that" is that by supressing real history and whitewashing many things it enables the rise of spurious, exaggerated versions that defeat the very purpose of that whitewashing in the first place.

 

[rubyjackass]

@vsdoc:
Contrary to the Razakar color painted on the MIM, the party's electoral politics actually helped the Muslims there move towards the Indian union. Here's a little history.
All India Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Their leaders have been well-educated. After being banned for their role in Hyderabad's independence war, they got reincarnated by well-educated men who made the party constitution compatible with India's constitution.
I think they are reasonable, considering that they started off with a base where there were still people who would not accept their fate in India. They play to their base a lot and they have dynastic politics. Despite their loss of muslim majority in the city, they are not anti-immigrant. During the recent Assamese exodus from Hyderabad, MIM leaders visited their colonies and reassured them of their security.

Since BJP begain losing their power in the city, it became peaceful. But there are people who feel the muslims have a free hand(There are some inconveniences like you cannot sport a saffron flag in some places of old city, especially on the roads leading to mosques. There may be bigger issues but they did not come up in the media so much) and want BJP to come back to give a balance. So if you ask me, in the old city BJP's comeback is dangerous. They are after worthless pursuits like this one and have nothing useful to add.

Since the beginning the city had problems because of its de facto separation of Hindu and Muslim areas. It is very easy to spread BS propaganda openly in one's areas.

And the new story in town is about a temple which was destroyed to build Charminar over it. Whereas the mainstream story is it was probably build as a gateway(like a traffic junction) to commemorate the end of the Malaria epidemic in 1700s. The funny thing is that religious zealots on both sides agree on their belief about the monument; that the building was built for religious reasons. One side then has a reason to protect it and the other to harm it.

 

[KS]

This is the High Court Order on the issue and it is categorically stated that the temple had been there for a very long time and the court is clear that unless the temple structure does not touch the Char Minar there is no problem as of now. The Temple Committe have also given in writing that they dont plan on any expansion. Fair enough.