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Religion vs. Reason

Nope, wrong at both things - religiosity have actually increased due to increased modes of transmission of religious knowledge and look at the average wages and technology of Europe, they were ahead since the enlightenment and renaissance.
Europe had transformed the feudal system into a strong free market system. Free market - as prescribed in our religion!!! - are the foundation of a nation. Check out the economic freedom index and see what countries are leading.

WHat you call enlightenment is actually industrial revolution. Europe get into industrial revolution and hence ahead of the game.
Yes, the industrial revolution was triggered by the free markets especially in the UK.
 
Europe had transformed the feudal system into a strong free market system. Free market - as prescribed in our religion!!! - are the foundation of a nation. Check out the economic freedom index and see what countries are leading.


Yes, the industrial revolution was triggered by the free markets especially in the UK.

On ground people can be scientist and religious. I dont understand why people claim that if you want to prosper you have to abondone religion. I feel that the people who dont understand Islam thinks that way.

Islam clearly teaches us to live your life by working hard in all spares of life including earning your income and get technology. Islam clearly teaches us Allah help only those who try doing something by worldly means.

When Islam teaches us to trust and pary Allah for health, it also dictate us to do so after eating proper healthy meal and take medicine.

Islam is a religion close to nature without any artificial orders.
 
Islam is a religion close to nature without any artificial orders.
No false gods needed, no holy men, no witchcraft, no intellectuals, it’s just the natural order of things.

The first word of the revelation was „IQRA!“ (read!) and reading is the foundation of learning! But neither the Mullahs nor the super intellectuals will tell you about that.
 
Prove it.

There are many instances against this theory. till 17th century muslims were following religion and were the most advance and was dominating the world.
And what led to the downfall?
Fundamentalism
I don’t have to prove anything, everything is before you. We Muslims lag behind because we would rather dwell on fabled beliefs and adventures than actually finding out the truth

I’ve heard the theory of relativity compared with miraaj... I need not explain there’s a lot of discrepancy. As for the blood clot ayahs although for the time somewhat accurate... if you write that in your biology exam, kiss goodbye to passing
 
by Khaled Ahmed June 22, 2020
pervez-hoodhboy-fcc.jpg

File photo of Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy. Attila Kisbenedek—AFP

Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy’s dismissal from Lahore’s FCC University is a win for irrationality
Professor Dr. Pervez Amirali Hoodbhoy, currently teaching physics and math at Lahore’s Forman Christian College University, has been informed that his contract will not be renewed in 2021. The same week, Punjab Governor Chaudhry Mohammad Sarwar announced that all universities of the province would be required to teach the holy Quran as a compulsory subject, with students allowed to graduate only after the course has been completed.

Hoodbhoy, born in 1950, is a Ph.D. in nuclear physics; he objects to acts of state and society against reason. His book Islam and Science: Religious Orthodoxy and the Battle for Rationality explains the source of his trouble with the ideological state of Pakistan. It is not that he hates religion; he objects to acts of irrationality in the name of religion. The two scientists he most admires, Ramanujan and Abdus Salam, were deeply religious.

He protested, however, when Punjab Governor Salmaan Taseer’s own police guard murdered the politician after Taseer defended a Christian woman accused of insulting Islam’s Prophet under Pakistan’s draconian anti-blasphemy law. Having lived under General Ziaul Haq’s Islamic martial law, he was put off by a 1987 conference on “scientific miracles” in which Muslim scientists mixed religious miracle with scientific discovery. Pakistani scientists, encouraged by a funding of Rs. 6,600,000 (half provided by Saudi Arabia), flew off the handle and talked rubbish about science and demeaned the divine writ of the Quran.

Pakistan’s chief scientist, Salim Mehmud, tried to give himself a leg-up by making a hash of the theory of relativity after linking it with the “mairaj” (ascension) of Islam’s Prophet. Another scientist, lucratively employed at The Holy Quran Research Foundation, proposed that taming “jinns could solve the country’s energy-related problems” as the creatures are made of fire. Many others, lured by the limelight, delivered of themselves gems of medieval gibberish in the name of Islamic science.

Hoodbhoy has examined the roots of these ridiculous attitudes among Muslim scientists and come up with a well-researched book about the maltreatment of the scientific principle in Muslim societies. He asked Nobel Prize laureate Abdus Salam to write its preface because the professor had already made a plaintive appeal to the Muslim world to spend money on scientific advancement instead of “conquering” science through dogma.

Hoodbhoy tells us that scientific facts are contingent on reality. They are empirically proven but subject to change upon further discovery. In his view, it is wrong to link the eternal truth of Islam to this evolving understanding of natural phenomena. Science relies on observation and logic whose predictability is not destroyed by the new understanding of quantum physics. For a believer, it is important to separate divine knowledge from empirical fact, but this separation should not impinge on the ferocious Islamic polemic against secularism.

Science in Islam was destroyed because it was never applied enough to involve the common man. Kings often employed scientists, but they were at times killed after the death of their patron. Al-Kindi was lashed 50 times in front of an illiterate approving crowd; Al-Razi was hit on the head with his own book on rationalism till he lost his eyesight; Ibn Sina’s entire life was spent running away from one prince after the other for fear of being killed for heresy; Ibn Khaldun, the great social scientist discovered by the West, was condemned by Taha Hussain as a non-believer pretending to be a Muslim.

In his book, Hoodbhoy quotes Syed Ameer Ali on Islamic thinkers who thought the scientific method anti-Islamic: Al-Ashari, Ibn Hanbal, Al-Ghazali and Ibn Taymiyya. He examines the case made by leading Asharite Imam Ghazali against the study of logic and mathematics and thinks that this was to become the greatest intellectual hurdle against the learning of science. He criticizes contemporary Islamic scholar Hussein Nasr for blaming the sciences for the misdirection of the Muslim mind. His critique of Ziauddin Sardar for introducing the polemic of secularism into the sciences is balanced and fair.

Hoodbhoy steps beyond the pale of anti-scientism in today’s new intellectual trend when he gives statistics about the poverty of science learning in the Muslim world. The gap between India and Pakistan is significant because it goes beyond the argument of population ratios. One has to helplessly concede that where Muslims control societies, the one branch of knowledge that becomes neglected is the sciences. Prof Salam’s advocacy of the pure sciences becomes meaningful when one realizes that professional disciplines far outstrip the disciplines that teach science.

Hoodbhoy is not the only dissenting voice to have been dismissed from the echelons of academia in recent weeks. Author Mohammad Hanif posted on Twitter that he, too, had been let go from Karachi’s Habib University. Similarly, Prof. Ammar Ali Jan, also affiliated with FCCU, has also claimed on the social network that he had been released as visiting faculty over his public activism that was making the varsity “controversial.”

Pervez Hoodbhoy’s book has diagnosed what is happening to the Muslim mind toward the end of the 20th century. This mind is not only producing strange reactions to the sciences in general; it is also trying to tackle the question of governance without separating the state from religious belief. The new coercive order spreading over Muslim society is not political but intellectual. The tragic fact however is that this experiment is too late in the day and quite redundant in the light of what the institution of the state has gone through in Islam’s own history and in other civilizations.


https://www.newsweekpakistan.com/re...e1tYzhIgYUArmmEWkYgi6rOSEqjZfFa-24lJKUadfoNEU
Science is a knowledge created by the Almighty, the All knowing, the Exalted as well. If we start going by this - we will have no problem.
 
He was one of the saner voices of Pakistan.

The age old "anti Islam" "liberal" canard to shut everything down. Family planning is liberal propaganda. Women's rights are liberal propaganda. Talking about science and evolution is liberal propaganda.

No wonder we're becoming more and more of a shithole by the day.
 
No religiosity was always higher in muslims during previous years as well. You can read history be it crusades, turkish empire or attack on sub-continent. Religion always played key role with these kingdoms.
Duh, in those times, masses had nearly zero knowledge about religion, granted feudo-religious institutions were strong but neither Burqa/Hijab was frequent nor most people can even read Quran or even recite duas - as most weren't even Madarsa educated (literacy standing under 10%), now nearly most of us can read the Quran and not to mention the influence of evangelicals like Zakir Naik, Israr Ahmed etc....
WHat you call enlightenment is actually industrial revolution. Europe get into industrial revolution and hence ahead of the game.
And that was correlated with the eroding power of Christian clergy, hence leaving the space for free innovation.
Europe had transformed the feudal system into a strong free market system.
  1. Free market is itself a modern-concept again originated from works of modern economists like Adam Smith et al.
  2. Free market requires zero power to clergy and zero religious influence on economy, traditional oppositions to interest based finance (Riba) and so-called Islamic economics is antithesis to free-market itself, in fact Islamic orgs. advocated for feudalism itself (opposing land reforms)..
But neither the Mullahs
So, you are anti-Mullah, what is the interpretation of Islam according to you?
Check out the economic freedom index and see what countries are leading.
And correlation of that with religiosity?
 
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The age old "anti Islam" "liberal" canard to shut everything down
You are over enlightened agnostic, please refrain from commenting on the foundation of our state. You are brainwashed with leftist propaganda and there is no use to discuss your Anti-Islamic standpoints.

So, when will you score a Nobel prize for Pakistan? Are you nominated for one this December?
 
You are over enlightened agnostic, please refrain from commenting on the foundation of our state. You are brainwashed with leftist propaganda and there is no use to discuss your Anti-Islamic standpoints.

So, when will you score a Nobel prize for Pakistan? Are you nominated for one this December?
Sweetheart. I hold a Pakistani passport. So by law, I am a Pakistani citizen. I will say whatever the eff I want.

And who are you to talk? You don't even live here. What is with you expats and wanting Pakistan to be a shariah state? Unless you live here, shut the eff up.
 
He was one of the saner voices of Pakistan.

The age old "anti Islam" "liberal" canard to shut everything down. Family planning is liberal propaganda. Women's rights are liberal propaganda. Talking about science and evolution is liberal propaganda.

No wonder we're becoming more and more of a shithole by the day.

When was the last time your Bhoy talked about Science? He was a whiny b1tch who should have been put to pasture decades ago. I've worked in the Higher Education Sector in the UK and Pakistan is decades behind everyone else because of dinosaurs like him.
 
When was the last time your Bhoy talked about Science? He was a whiny b1tch who should have been put to pasture decades ago. I've worked in the Higher Education Sector in the UK and Pakistan is decades behind everyone else because of dinosaurs like him.

Have you bothered reading his research papers? He did a Pakistani version of Carl Sagan's Cosmos series so Pakistani kids could know a bit about cosmology. Which other Pakistani scientist has done that?

You're just offended because he drops a lot of truth bombs about religion.
 
You are over enlightened agnostic, please refrain from commenting on the foundation of our state. You are brainwashed with leftist propaganda and there is no use to discuss your Anti-Islamic standpoints.
''over enlightened agnostic''
What does it mean?
 
Duh, in those times, masses had nearly zero knowledge about religion, granted feudo-religious institutions were strong but neither Burqa/Hijab was frequent nor most people can even read Quran or even recite duas - as most weren't even Madarsa educated (literacy standing under 10%), now nearly most of us can read the Quran and not to mention the influence of evangelicals like Zakir Naik, Israr Ahmed etc....
People knew how to perform the rituals without asking the „literates“ and in every day they were busy with their own stuff, like surviving. Education is important in Islam and encouraged. And yes, how many people have ever read the Quran, how many are ready to act on that? This is the problem.
And that was correlated with the eroding power of Christian clergy, hence leaving the space for free innovation.
People also differ on that. It was the eroding power of CATHOLICS which lead to the advanced science and free markets. There is something called „Protestant work ethics“, you may check also the calvinists out, who believe that the rich are loved by god...
  • Free market is itself a modern-concept again originated from works of modern economists like Adam Smith et al.
  • Free market requires zero power to clergy and zero religious influence on economy, traditional oppositions to interest based finance (Riba) and so-called Islamic economics is antithesis to free-market itself, in fact advocating for feudalism itslef (opposing land reforms)..
The religion sets some restrictions yes (you have to pay zakat for example). Adam Smith has not invented free markets, free markets are created every time til a governmental body comes and starts regulating and taxing it. You can checkout Ibn Khaldun (centuries before Adam smith) regarding free markets and stuff.
So, you are anti-Mullah, what is the interpretation of Islam according to you?
Organized religions are a degeneration. Islam doesn’t need a clergy. There are Hadiths condemning the clergy of the other book religions. My interpretation of Islam is that the most things we see today are constructed by the different sects and Mullahs for different reasons. Islam is simple so keep it simple.


And correlation of that with religiosity?
Correlation with being a wealthy state. Most religious people condemn wealth but this has no foundation in Islam.

Sweetheart. I hold a Pakistani passport. So by law, I am a Pakistani citizen. I will say whatever the eff I want.
Blind nationalism based on the random fact that you were born in a specific place is beyond stupid. I love Pakistan because of the idea behind it and not because of the fact that I was born there. So you love Pakistan because you have birth certificate issued by a Pakistani official? Great!




And who are you to talk? You don't even live here. What is with you expats and wanting Pakistan to be a shariah state? Unless you live here, shut the eff up.
Sorry That Your Visa was rejected. I want Pakistan to become an affluent society based on our religion. Not a cheap Anglo-Hindu shithole.
 
What jin has to do with Islam? Does taming jin is preached in Islam?

Jin exist even in non-religious methologies called super natural beings. You can find TV programs trying to identify this supernatural beings through science.

Brother try to understand our backwardness is due to illiteracy and not due to religion. Religion do not held us back from aquiring scientific knowledge. We have proved that for 11 centuries when Islamic countries was center of world from 6th century till 17th century we were the most powerful culture and society on earth.

We were center of science and education as well. Europe use to come to Istanbol and Baghdad to learn science and technology.
The problem is not Islam or illiteracy,its the poverty of the state first and its people second.
When the state cant provide,others will.
Thats what happened in Pakistan.
 
Duh, in those times, masses had nearly zero knowledge about religion, granted feudo-religious institutions were strong but neither Burqa/Hijab was frequent nor most people can even read Quran or even recite duas - as most weren't even Madarsa educated (literacy standing under 10%), now nearly most of us can read the Quran and not to mention the influence of evangelicals like Zakir Naik, Israr Ahmed etc....

And that was correlated with the eroding power of Christian clergy, hence leaving the space for free innovation.

  1. Free market is itself a modern-concept again originated from works of modern economists like Adam Smith et al.
  2. Free market requires zero power to clergy and zero religious influence on economy, traditional oppositions to interest based finance (Riba) and so-called Islamic economics is antithesis to free-market itself, in fact Islamic orgs. advocated for feudalism itself (opposing land reforms)..

So, you are anti-Mullah, what is the interpretation of Islam according to you?

And correlation of that with religiosity?

First of all the times you are talking about was the time when literacy include verbal knowledge. For example Quran used to get memorized by people who dont know how to read and right.

Secondly, many scientist of that time were religious in nature.

THird you always compare societies by the standard of that time. So at that time reading and writing was not common but it doesnt means people were illiterate. As knowledge at that time was transfer verbally due to lack of printing press writing books was extremely difficult.

Fourth Zakir Naik and Israr Ahmed are not evangelist its a term strictly referred for Christianity and Islam has no link to that.

What are the basis of your claim mases had zero knowledge about the religion?
Basis that people couldnot recite dua or quran?
Basis of literacy was 10% when concept of literacy was entirely different back then
 

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