Reliance on China to Hurt Pakistan in Future

[Prince_of_Mistery]

Pakistans economy must be strong and its not hard to achieve for this country to do. We have got the people and the know how. Look how India bettering itself, India is there in the G8 summit and being respected and recognise by them. Let alone Mr 10%, going half way round the world begging for money ! WHY ?

It is very hard to get rid of Mr 10%. They are very powerful. and the people of pakistan dont have the will to change that.

 

[Peshwa]

I would like to pose a question to all.....

Everyone is all up in arms about China being a "reliable" friend....Long Live China Pakistan Friendship....etc etc.....The Chinese and Pakistani's on this forum play wingman at this point on topics that fall against their interests or towards their common cause.....fair enough....I applaud this partnership....

Let me pose this scenario.....If by god's good grace, India and China decide to peacefully settle their disputes, do you think that that China would still favor Pakistan???
I feel this would be the true test of China's "Friendship and loyalty"..

Do you think China will be able to support an enemy of a potential (economic and military) superpower with strong allies, political clout and a trade partner with whom they could possibly trade at a $100 Billion anually to their own benefit?

Has anyone understood, why China befriended Pakistan only past '62? And has anyone considered the scenario of why USA is aiding India....doesnt one think China would have the same attitude USA has towards India in a few years??
There is a saying "Sabse bada Rupaiya" (Basically Cash is god)

What is Pakistan going to do then? I think the thread starter has come up with an excellent scenario here and I want to praise him for his forward thinking!!

....and please I dont mean to snub the chinese or call out their character in any way....so please keep the hormones in check....
I just want to second the thread starters ideas that every country looks out for its own selfish interests....even the closest of allies are allies beacuse they can benefit from each other.....

 

[Hyde]

I would like to pose a question to all.....

Everyone is all up in arms about China being a "reliable" friend....Long Live China Pakistan Friendship....etc etc.....The Chinese and Pakistani's on this forum play wingman at this point on topics that fall against their interests or towards their common cause.....fair enough....I applaud this partnership....

Let me pose this scenario.....If by god's good grace, India and China decide to peacefully settle their disputes, do you think that that China would still favor Pakistan???
I feel this would be the true test of China's "Friendship and loyalty"..

Yes it will, because of various reasons.

1) We are friends since past 60 years and India will not become a reliable friend so sudden, so it will need time to settle up everything and that means years and in that while we can find another reliable friend.

2) Pakistan and China shares common interests while India does not share as much as Pakistan's interests. China wants to dominate the World so is India and why will China make friendship with its Arch-rival and make things worsen?

3) Pakistan and China needs Natural resources badly and due to geographically they both will have to use the same sources and why would China want to share its interests with India if she is getting all the benefits solely. I mean China can get Oil and Gas from Iran through her reliable friend Pakistan and India can't. China is getting and increasing its influence on other south asian countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nipal etc and making her ports in these countries and using their natural resources while India share poor relationships with these countries. Why would china be friend with India and let her use those resources that China is enjoying freely

4) China will deal only with India if both countries sort out their problems but if they remain the friend of Pakistan, they have an access to all Muslim world through Pakistan and Gwadar.

5) The Lion is the king of the Jungle and two Animals cannot become the King of the Jungle

6) Incase there is a car in future China vs India, they would want Pakistan to stand against India and support china, also if there is a war against Pakistan, china will support Pakistan to reduce her influence from the region so we could both countries destroy or damage each other and China could dominate the World.

Lots of facts

Do you think China will be able to support an enemy of a potential superpower with strong allies, political clout and a trade partner with whom they could possibly trade at a $100 Billion anually to their own benefit?

Yes, because even other foreign countries do not want to see India become a Super Power neither China. What i believe they want is, Make India stable that it can dare to stand against China and keep Pakistan also in Check incase India dare to stand against western countries. So they want all these three countries to stand against each other and could fight for western benefits. Even China would want to see prosperty in Pakistan and not just in military but all sectors so in any case India stands against China, Pakistan too support China and take a stand against India.

Has anyone understood, why China befriended Pakistan only past '62? And has anyone considered the scenario of why USA is aiding India....doesnt one think China would have the same attitude USA has towards India in a few years??
There is a saying "Sabse bada Rupaiya" (Basically Cash is god)

What is Pakistan going to do then? I think the thread starter has come up with an excellent scenario here and I want to praise him for his forward thinking!!

....and please I dont mean to snub the chinese or call out their character in any way....so please keep the hormones in check....
I just want to second the thread starters ideas that every country looks out for its own selfish interests....even the closest of allies are allies beacuse they can benefit from each other.....

Well, Its not we are friends since 1962. We were the second country to support recognise China in United Nations in 1951 i think and since then we are sharing common interests and good relationships with China

---------

The bottom line is: China and India cannot become an ally at least for now. They will need Natural resources to become super power and for that they will have disputes. Americans would never want to see Indians going in the lap of chinese so they will support India from all doors and make sure that India remains hostile to China so your question is invalid in my eyes and i don't agree with that

 

[Peshwa]

Yes it will, because of various reasons.

First off Mr.X thanks a lot for taking time to discuss this....I like your responses but have a few counter opinions......

1) We are friends since past 60 years and India will not become a reliable friend so sudden, so it will need time to settle up everything and that means years and in that while we can find another reliable friend.



Agreed to the first reply.....Trust and Rome are not built in a day...but we dont need to make an ally, we need to end hostilities so we can concentrate on development thats all (This goes for both countries)...remember India expends a considerable number of troops and resources are diverted to counter China....once this pressure is off...means additional pressure on Pakistan!!!


2) Pakistan and China shares common interests while India does not share as much as Pakistan's interests. China wants to dominate the World so is India and why will China make friendship with its Arch-rival and make things worsen?

Sir that is a weak argument....common interests of Pakistan and China go as far as countering India....as far as trade etc goes, India is a much more lucrative partner....both strategically and as a potential market.....Besides take the example of America....America too wants to dominate the world, especially for resources....does that change the status quo that America and China are in? Both have their spheres of influence.....in fact being the largest trade partners, they have more of a mutually beneficial relationship...besides....remember a key point....You dont "fight" for resources on others homeland (Meaning America and China wont go to war over resources in Africa)...they will try to outbid each other.....one fights only for disputed territory...eg Kashmir

3) Pakistan and China needs Natural resources badly and due to geographically they both will have to use the same sources and why would China want to share its interests with India if she is getting all the benefits solely. I mean China can get Oil and Gas from Iran through her reliable friend Pakistan and India can't. China is getting and increasing its influence on other south asian countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nipal etc and making her ports in these countries and using their natural resources while India share poor relationships with these countries. Why would china be friend with India and let her use those resources that China is enjoying freely

Youre getting this wrong....India does not have poor relations with these countries, its more like China is trying to influence these countries to curb a current enemy.....eg China seeks a base in Sri Lanka and Nepal to keep an eye on India....

If there is no hostility, then why waste resources....China can outsource the protection of the straight of Mallaca to India or even a co-operative effort is possible....Besides....China is not almighty god that every country will accept them with open arms.....
Every country will allow a foreign presence based on what benefits them the most....And at this point India can wave cash to "buy" friends if it needs to....everyone is well aware of it....we might be a bit late to the party, but we come with some crisp benjamins....

Besides..Do you think Sri Lankans or Nepalese have the clout to truly face off India....Remember sir...Hambanota is a statement...thats it....I hope you realize that wars are won based on how many friends you have....not how many "listening posts" one posseses....I think you're aware of Diego Garcia?

4) China will deal only with India if both countries sort out their problems but if they remain the friend of Pakistan, they have an access to all Muslim world through Pakistan and Gwadar.

This is where Pakistan truly underestimates India.....
India is friendly to all muslim nations....EXCEPT Pakistan!!
So please dont be mistaken that India has any less clout in the Islamic world Pakistan.....if any it has more than Pakistan!!

Remember Sir Muslim or not....everyone wants to make money..Religion is secondary to the "real god" called Pure hard cash....Prime example is Saudi Arabia....the leader of Muslim ideology!!!..and it favors muslims to co-operate with India for their economic benefit....I expect you to figure the rest!!!


5) The Lion is the king of the Jungle and two Animals cannot become the King of the Jungle

No Philosophy Sir.....But since you're at it.....Yes Lion is the King of the Jungle....But even the Lion respects the march of the lone "Vegetarian" Elephant....I think you can do the mix and match from here

6) Incase there is a car in future China vs India, they would want Pakistan to stand against India and support china, also if there is a war against Pakistan, china will support Pakistan to reduce her influence from the region so we could both countries destroy or damage each other and China could dominate the World.

This is the point that I want you to expand on.....why would China risk a face off...against a $100 Billion potential trade partner with enough fire power, cash and friends.... for Pakistan.....which works mostly on soft loans....requires heavy investment in infrastructure...is troubled with insurgency...not trusted by the west and is politically unstable??
Frankly and no offense.....sooner or later Pakistan will become a burden for China....why should China divert its resources and men to support a country when they can easily just stay neutral???...Dont you think?? Remember Sir....Wars cost you money and sometimes friends....and India has a lot of Friends!!!
And remember....sooner than later India will be part of the security council....That will make it even harder for China to openly oppose India!!!



Lots of facts



Yes, because even other foreign countries do not want to see India become a Super Power neither China. What i believe they want is, Make India stable that it can dare to stand against China and keep Pakistan also in Check incase India dare to stand against western countries. So they want all these three countries to stand against each other and could fight for western benefits. Even China would want to see prosperty in Pakistan and not just in military but all sectors so in any case India stands against China, Pakistan too support China and take a stand against India.

Brother....I feel that the age of Military dominance is done.....This is the age of economic hitmen and economic warfare.....

The rules of demand and supply will tell you that there is demand in the west and the east is a vast and cheao source of the "supply"....the sheer manpower that India and China possess will be their greatest resource.....there is nothing that the world can do to stop the Indians or the Chinese from growing....

What you refere to is the west arming India to counter China....but if there is no war, why waste resources to outdo China....we only need to faceoff a smaller enemy ....which means we dont tax our economy as much.....Major gains there and then....
Besides....we are not an export based economy.....our massive internal consumption sustains us......and we are experts in service based industries....We definitely need to improve production....but a combination and balance of the two....will make us even better and stronger!!!

Well, Its not we are friends since 1962. We were the second country to support recognise China in United Nations in 1951 i think and since then we are sharing common interests and good relationships with China

---------

The bottom line is: China and India cannot become an ally at least for now. They will need Natural resources to become super power and for that they will have disputes. Americans would never want to see Indians going in the lap of chinese so they will support India from all doors and make sure that India remains hostile to China so your question is invalid in my eyes and i don't agree with that

Sir....I feel that you're looking at the situation from the lenses of a Pakistani.....try to see this from China's viewpoint and their scale of interest and let me know if you feel the same.....I am imagining myself from a Chinese perspective and I feel that it wouldn't serve them any purspose in supporting Pakistan at the cost of India.....

I look forward to your response!!

 

[applesauce]

well of course china is using Pakistan for its own interests.... but so is Pakistan, its a mutual relationship, just like any of friendship both side share common goals.

if in the future china and India some how became really friendly and solve all their border issue then yea i feel like the relationship with Pakistan will cool a bit but in no way will the Chinese government abandon Pakistan there are more to their support of Pakistan than using them as rival to india, things like oil from Iran and one more ally can never hurt in potential conflicts against others

about reliance, all country want to be independent militarically... but that's just not economically feasible, to have the best stuff you need research and development and industry, even countries like the US has some equipment from other friendly nations. Pakistan right now is trying to make more things locally but it takes time to make most of your equipment in-house. but in the mean time Pakistan's most friendly relationship is with china thus it makes sense that a majority of its equitment that it cannot make locally comes from the country with the smallest chance of embargoing Pakistan

 

[Peshwa]

well of course china is using Pakistan for its own interests.... but so is Pakistan, its a mutual relationship, just like any of friendship both side share common goals.

if in the future china and India some how became really friendly and solve all their border issue then yea i feel like the relationship with Pakistan will cool a bit but in no way will the Chinese government abandon Pakistan there are more to their support of Pakistan than using them as rival to india, things like oil from Iran and one more ally can never hurt in potential conflicts against others

about reliance, all country want to be independent militarically... but that's just not economically feasible, to have the best stuff you need research and development and industry, even countries like the US has some equipment from other friendly nations. Pakistan right now is trying to make more things locally but it takes time to make most of your equipment in-house. but in the mean time Pakistan's most friendly relationship is with china thus it makes sense that a majority of its equitment that it cannot make locally comes from the country with the smallest chance of embargoing Pakistan

I agree with most of what you have mentioned....I definitely feel that one especially in the current world political arena cannot just abandon a trusted Ally....
However I do not see China interfering in a war between India and Pakistan, once India and China resolve their disputes....I dont think the rivalry will end....but direct confrontation will result in something bigger than can be imagined.....

The point of my post was....that if India and China on paper are not enemies, then it will become really hard for China to arm Pakistan with top technology the way it is doing now...especially when it is directed solely towards India......
I meant to ask the Pakistani members who will they turn to if they dont have a self-reliant Military industrial complex??
Furthermore the biggest blow India can give Pakistan at this moment is to end hostilities with China......
The whole concept of China-Pak friendship lasting for ever and that the relationship is more than it seems is a far fetched idea!!!

 

[jetLi]

Dear All,


The chinese are not fond of muslims very much as you can see from the recent troubles in China and the past record against muslims.


MN

Hi brother, Muslim in china have hundreds years. If China are not fond
of muslim, how do you think that muslim will exist in china so long?

The trouble in Xinjiang have a long history root. In 19th century , some western countries aided the East Turkeystan separation and later the Soviet Union also do this.

It is not just a Religion confilct, but some separationist in the fund of some countries take the terror attack. There are not only Uguyr but also Hui ,Kazak ,Uzebek chinese are also muslim. and there are also
lots of Han people are muslim.

If u think that this is because China's not fond of muslim,
how do you think that the Uguyr's attack on Hui muslim?

Some western Countries just have prejudice on China because they fair China's
rise and also China's communism( If it can still be called communism).

 

[salman nedian]

I would like to pose a question to all.....

Everyone is all up in arms about China being a "reliable" friend....Long Live China Pakistan Friendship....etc etc.....The Chinese and Pakistani's on this forum play wingman at this point on topics that fall against their interests or towards their common cause.....fair enough....I applaud this partnership....

Let me pose this scenario.....If by god's good grace, India and China decide to peacefully settle their disputes, do you think that that China would still favor Pakistan???
I feel this would be the true test of China's "Friendship and loyalty"..

Do you think China will be able to support an enemy of a potential (economic and military) superpower with strong allies, political clout and a trade partner with whom they could possibly trade at a $100 Billion anually to their own benefit?

Has anyone understood, why China befriended Pakistan only past '62? And has anyone considered the scenario of why USA is aiding India....doesnt one think China would have the same attitude USA has towards India in a few years??
There is a saying "Sabse bada Rupaiya" (Basically Cash is god)

What is Pakistan going to do then? I think the thread starter has come up with an excellent scenario here and I want to praise him for his forward thinking!!

....and please I dont mean to snub the chinese or call out their character in any way....so please keep the hormones in check....
I just want to second the thread starters ideas that every country looks out for its own selfish interests....even the closest of allies are allies beacuse they can benefit from each other.....

I don’t think China would allow India to become a major power. It will be the conflict of interests plus China has border disputes with India hence they will prefer to favour Pakistan who always had ‘One China’ policy and the 3rd most populous nation of the region.

Through Pakistan, China can easily access the Arabian sea which has a great strategic importance and this will give them the access to the rich and importer Arab world who has more ‘Rupiya’ to buy Chinese goods. Chinese will prefer those markets who can import all the stuff from China.

As I have said earlier US is aiding India to counter China. Would China like this? I doubt.

 

[Hasnain2009]

Hi brother, Muslim in china have hundreds years. If China are not fond
of muslim, how do you think that muslim will exist in china so long?

The trouble in Xinjiang have a long history root. In 19th century , some western countries aided the East Turkeystan separation and later the Soviet Union also do this.

It is not just a Religion confilct, but some separationist in the fund of some countries take the terror attack. There are not only Uguyr but also Hui ,Kazak ,Uzebek chinese are also muslim. and there are also
lots of Han people are muslim.

If u think that this is because China's not fond of muslim,
how do you think that the Uguyr's attack on Hui muslim?

Some western Countries just have prejudice on China because they fair China's
rise and also China's communism( If it can still be called communism).

Yeah we understand that!
That's why we r standing with China!

 

[Peshwa]

I don’t think China would allow India to become a major power. It will be the conflict of interests plus China has border disputes with India hence they will prefer to favour Pakistan who always had ‘One China’ policy and the 3rd most populous nation of the region.

Through Pakistan, China can easily access the Arabian sea which has a great strategic importance and this will give them the access to the rich and importer Arab world who has more ‘Rupiya’ to buy Chinese goods. Chinese will prefer those markets who can import all the stuff from China.

As I have said earlier US is aiding India to counter China. Would China like this? I doubt.

Hi Salaman....I feel like you're putting China up on a pedestal.....What makes you think China controls the key to India becoming a "Superpower"....how is India's economy or military dependent on China in any way???
Unlike China, Indian economy is not export based, but service based....in fact, if Indians decide to expand their production base, we can give China a run for their money, but if the chinese have to compete with us in a service based industry, they first have to learn english....
Point is, China can try to outbid us in influence, not prevent us!!!
Also Big 5 are already considering giving India a seat in the security council.....only exception being China.....once this is done, India's clout is inevitable and it would make it even harder for China to oppose India....

Im not saying that Pak-China relations will go sour if we resolve our dispute, but it really makes no sense for the Chinese to keep bitter relations with an enemy they could be making money off ,for the sake of an ally who is not trusted by the majority of the world at the moment??

Also....I feel you're missing the point....Arab countries have the money, but do they have the demand?? You're actually comparing the demand created for goods from a 1 billion people to a few puny arab states with sparse populations??....Also....just because you have a friendly nation next to an oil rich country doesnt guarantee you oil.....the friendly nations have a butt load of insurgencies, terrorists, unstable governments etc etc holed up who would want nothing more than to blackmail the state or destroy/threaten to destroy infrastructure for their own selfish gains.....
Do you think China would put its eggs in a basket like Pakistan where the bottom may fall off any minute??

Like I said....the biggest blow to Pakistan would be if India made peace with China!!!

For Pakistan.....self reliance is the way to go.....China I feel is a "fair-Weathered" friend....

 

[insas91]

I don’t think China would allow India to become a major power. It will be the conflict of interests plus China has border disputes with India hence they will prefer to favour Pakistan who always had ‘One China’ policy and the 3rd most populous nation of the region.

India is already a major power. Open your eyes. Look at the world order, and the kind of position India enjoys today.
India doesn't need Chinese approval on how big a power it should be. India will continue to rise as long as all its people want it to.

Through Pakistan, China can easily access the Arabian sea which has a great strategic importance and this will give them the access to the rich and importer Arab world who has more ‘Rupiya’ to buy Chinese goods. Chinese will prefer those markets who can import all the stuff from China.

As I have said earlier US is aiding India to counter China. Would China like this? I doubt.

Had Chinese wanted to exploit the "Arabian sea route' they would have already done that like in case of Africa.

I really doubt China sees Pakistan as something 'extremely important'. China's role in the subcontinent is next to none once India and Pakistan have resolved their issues.

Chinese have had a history of making scapegoats to meet their objective, and then leave them unattended. Most significant example is North Vietnam.

 

[oct605032048]

North vietnam? they embraced the russian empire and couldn't wait to invade and ocuppy Cambodia shortly after they got indepence with the help of Mao's authority .

---------- Post added at 06:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 AM ----------

Besides, pakistan is of extreme importance to china for it provide china the shortest cut to the indian ocean without passing the strait of Malacca and the islands of andaman and nicoba which are under control of indian powers.
and wise versa, china provide pakistan a reliable route to the vast land of east asia.

 

[Patriot]

Even if disputes are solved so what?Pakistan Defence Industry alone is multi billion dollar market for Chinese Defence Industries and Gawader will help China immensely and trade will definately increase.Unlike US-PAK Alliance in China-PAK Alliance we actually pay for everything and don't get any hard cash aid from them so even if they dont offer much support it will not effect PAkistan in big way.We could still buy weapons from Europen or some other countries. (China by the way will still sell weapons..India is not gonna control entire world..how many times you've tried to block PAkistani sales worldwide and failed?Your Obessesion with Pakistan will definately hurt you )

 

[applesauce]

I agree with most of what you have mentioned....I definitely feel that one especially in the current world political arena cannot just abandon a trusted Ally....
However I do not see China interfering in a war between India and Pakistan, once India and China resolve their disputes....I dont think the rivalry will end....but direct confrontation will result in something bigger than can be imagined.....

The point of my post was....that if India and China on paper are not enemies, then it will become really hard for China to arm Pakistan with top technology the way it is doing now...especially when it is directed solely towards India......
I meant to ask the Pakistani members who will they turn to if they dont have a self-reliant Military industrial complex??
Furthermore the biggest blow India can give Pakistan at this moment is to end hostilities with China......
The whole concept of China-Pak friendship lasting for ever and that the relationship is more than it seems is a far fetched idea!!!

i'm not saying they'll directly intervieen if in the future both nation are equally important to china they it will be hard to support just one, in short it depends who is worth more to china,but of course they want to keep as many friends as possible. if pakistan is still more important i think the "help" will be in term of political and maybe some suppy line type of help. but yes i dont not see direct confrontation as a route for them

"The point of my post was....that if India and China on paper are not enemies, then it will become really hard for China to arm Pakistan with top technology the way it is doing now...especially when it is directed solely towards India......"

well i dont see a problem with it, so long as the exports are
1. not substantial enough to change the balance of power,
2. it will probably not be on such nice terms, like soft loans
3. think of the US it arms both sides.
4. if the countries are friendly by that point then india could buy chinese too(they have more money than pakistan anyways)

"I meant to ask the Pakistani members who will they turn to if they dont have a self-reliant Military industrial complex??
Furthermore the biggest blow India can give Pakistan at this moment is to end hostilities with China......"

good point....hmmm well arms are always avabible somewhere but the quality if a different story.

 

[salman nedian]

@insas and Peshwa,
My point was how you people can think that China will accept an equal rival in the region? This will always remain a root cause for India and China rivalry and Pakistan will always be important because it satisfies many Chinese interests.

It is purely your thought that for China Pakistan is not important and infact it is your wish. Pakistan is a huge market for Chinese weapons plus if you talk in terms of trade and commerce I think China will consider those regions who are a big market for Chinese goods and wealthy, some how wather you accept it or not the purchasing power of a Pakistani on average is more than an Indian.

Oil from Middle East, Defense and trade balance are the three most important factors due to which Pakistan and China will always remain close. China will always keep that in mind that USA is funding India to counter China. Is this a small thing that you think Chinese will neglect and revise their relations with India?

Chine will never want a equal power in region hence due to this the tension will always be there between them.