Rejecting an alleged miracle of Ghous Pak Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jillani leads to being beaten up by charged crowd

[villageidiot]

Engineer is just copying British born molvis from the UK, there are plenty of them around, they speak amazing English, have beautiful speaking skills and pick and choose from Quran and sunnah, they also expose everyone else, find their faults etc. Young people love them as they feel good becoming part of something.

Young people could be part of biker gangs too, or whatever fad. Sorry but that's faulty logic. Why do they come around a religious scholar? ((i know many won't consider Engineer that but that's what his followers do and we are talking about their perspective)

Young people are going in droves towards engineer types because he is against molvis and young people hate molvis.
I could be considered young. I don't agree with on much. In fact, I don't listen to him much. I think he is crass in the way he refers to saints and some Sahaba R.A. But, I love it when he tears into molvis BS.

I blame the molvis for people going towards Engineer and liberal Islam. You know what I mean, sir. You referred to it as jahalat earlier. They've made Islam an industry like the catholics in the middle ages. We all saw what happened. Today christianity is a joke.

 

[PakAlp]

That's the point. Why draw the line at aqeedah? Kinda arbitrary, no? Why is the classification not done on the basis of fiqh. That's certainly what we see and hear globally. There's no mention of divisions of the basis of aqeedah But, it Pakistan, it's done on the basis of aqeedah so that all others can be clubbed together and dismissed as wahabis.

If there is no division then why did the Wahabi Najdis declared jihad against the Ottomans?
Look at the secterian war in Yemen, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Mali, Nigeria, Algeria, Somalia. Its shia v salafi, sunni/sufi v salafi, ikhwani v salafi. There difference is the Aqeedah, not the fiqh. Fiqh only causes debates which is fine but aqaid difference leads to accusations of shirk kufr and jihad.

I dont want the division but just stating the facts. The fight is between the old traditional Islam v the modern sects. Yes old traditional Islam sounds backwards and has corruption, but the new sects are worse.

I guarantee you the aqeedah of Al Azhar, Ottomans etc is 100% same as brelvis but yes the brelvis actions are jahalat and others are more educated, that's the difference, we need to raise our education standards.

Fiqh is shafi Al azhar and Ottoman Turks Hanafi. Ahlus sunnah wal jamaah accepts 4 fiqhs which is a blessing.

 

[_NOBODY_]

There is no movement called brelvi movement. The sunnis of Pakistan India Bangladesh follow the traditional Islam which has been here for 1000 years, then you have shias and then modern movements which came about 200 years ago calling everyone else names because they themselves are a misguided sect, they are the one who started to accuse the traditional sunni Muslims of being brelvis even though before Ahmed Raza Khan we have a huge Islamic history.

Yes I agree jahalat practises are common within the traditional sunni Muslims, the worse of its kind but the ulema condemn it but noone is listening, people are chasing the dunya. We also have educated modern Muslims chasing after the dunya, haram, money, corruption is in their veins. So we have jahil educated and uneducated people who are destroying us.



There is a big reason for that. My local deobandi mosque follow Ibn Abdul wahab najdi and consider him Sheikh ul Islam. Just pointing out there is a big reason for that. Deobandis were traditional sunni Muslims but they change their ways when they started to get influenced by salafism. They have the same fiqh but aqeedah is salafi. The brelvis (as alleged) kept the old sunni traditional aqeedah but inherited the corrupt babas, pirs and chadu ghar Ulema issued fatwas but generally the people are uneducated so will not listen or understand.

Just letting you know that Salafis too are Sunnis. Sunni Islam has many schools of thought and Salafism is one of them. Sunni Islam at its core is about following the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet Muhammed(PBUH) and Salafis do that.

 

[PakAlp]

Young people could be part of biker gangs too, or whatever fad. Sorry but that's faulty logic. Why do they come around a religious scholar? ((i know many won't consider Engineer that but that's what his followers do and we are talking about their perspective)

Young people are going in droves towards engineer types because he is against molvis and young people hate molvis.
I could be considered young. I don't agree with on much. In fact, I don't listen to him much. I think he is crass in the way he refers to saints and some Sahaba R.A. But, I love it when he tears into molvis BS.

I blame the molvis for people going towards Engineer and liberal Islam. You know what I mean, sir. You referred to it as jahalat earlier. They've made Islam an industry like the catholics in the middle ages. We all saw what happened. Today christianity is a joke.

But engineer is himself claiming to be a molvi/scholar. So he's saying don't listen to others but me. He does make good points and then does blunders. Yes I agree molvis messed everything up but they are from the awaam. The whole state is corrupt unfortunately.

InshaAllah once the education level rises, we will see less molvis jahalat but keep in mind modern liberal Islamic groups are on their way, they will shock you unless your proper westernised already.

 

[Mentee]

But engineer is himself claiming to be a molvi/scholar. So he's saying don't listen to others but me.

I have developed many differences with engineer saab lately but he never said don't listen to anyone else infact he always encourages his following to give everyone a chance .

 

[PakAlp]

I have developed many differences with engineer saab lately but he never said don't listen to anyone else infact he always encourages his following to give everyone a chance .

Yes but am just saying he claims he's correct and others are wrong so he does in a way say it. Everyone does. In the UK we also have modern molvis with tatoos preaching very similar to engineer, very intelligent and masters of English language and humour. The issue is when they go too deep in to it then they make major mistakes. Islam didn't stay in the 21st century but started 14 years ago and then Muslims created great civilisations but the modern sect hate them. They want a new modern Islam. History of Islam is very important, the research and work done by ulema cannot be ignored.

 

[_NOBODY_]

But engineer is himself claiming to be a molvi/scholar. So he's saying don't listen to others but me. He does make good points and then does blunders. Yes I agree molvis messed everything up but they are from the awaam. The whole state is corrupt unfortunately.

InshaAllah once the education level rises, we will see less molvis jahalat but keep in mind modern liberal Islamic groups are on their way, they will shock you unless your proper westernised already.

What you need to be worried about is the rise of atheism/agnosticism. Considering the kind of f**ked up things that we see from our so-called religious people, it shouldn't be surprising that many of our young people are becoming godless. I can't blame them as I too was going in that direction at one point in my life but to me, there's no reason to continue living if God doesn't exist so I had to do research on all the major religions to figure out which one is the true path. The only ones that made sense were Islam and Judaism. After further research, I fell in love with Islam and my heart fully accepted it.

@villageidiot @Bleek

 

[El Sidd]

Any arrests?

 

[M. Sarmad]

Both Quran and many Hadith were recorded even when of Prophet Muhammad SAW lived and after his passing too.

^^This is factually incorrect

Hadith writing was prohibited during the life of the prophet (by Muhammad himself). There's a Sahih Hadith in Muslim Shareef in this regard narrated by Abu Saeed Khudri

Hadith writing was prohibited during the times of the rightly guided caliphs

Hadith compilation and writing began during the Umayyad rule (on orders of Umayyad Kings)

The earliest Hadith Book 'Muwatta' was compiled by Imam Malik. Imam Malik was born almost a hundred years after the death of the prophet (pbuh)

 

[PakAlp]

^^This is factually incorrect

Hadith writing was prohibited during the life of the prophet (by Muhammad himself). There's a Sahih Hadith in Muslim Shareef in this regard narrated by Abu Saeed Khudri

Hadith writing was prohibited during the times of the rightly guided caliphs

Hadith compilation and writing began during the Umayyad rule (on orders of Umayyad Kings)

The earliest Hadith Book 'Muwatta' was compiled by Imam Malik. Imam Malik was born almost a hundred years after the death of the prophet (pbuh)

What's correct is we follow Quran, Sunnah and Salaf us saliheen. So its the first 300 years of Islam which is the closest to the truth, now it doesn't mean we cannot follow those who came afterwards because they also followed the first 3 generations. If I claim I follow Quran and sunnah, I can still be misguided if I make up my own translations. This is how people trick you.

Traditional Islam is when your understanding of Quran and Sunnah is similar to the mufasarin and muhadaseen who wrote hundreds of tafsirs. Islam did not begin in the 21st century, we have history of amazing Islamic civilisation, even the western world praises it and writes books on them but the modern Muslims are clueless and don't have time to read.

Islam is very simple and easy but people with their plans make it difficult.

What you need to be worried about is the rise of atheism/agnosticism. Considering the kind of f**ked up things that we see from our so-called religious people, it shouldn't be surprising that many of our young people are becoming godless. I can't blame them as I too was going in that direction at one point in my life but to me, there's no reason to continue living if God doesn't exist so I had to do research on all the major religions to figure out which one is the true path. The only ones that made sense were Islam and Judaism. After further research, I fell in love with Islam and my heart fully accepted it.

@villageidiot @Bleek

I used to work for a company and met this senior lady, she was talking to me about Muslims religious extremism and she said we Christians used to have same issues and then slowly the later generations had enough of all the hatred and violence, so they all decided its best to move on and they all became non religious, they know Christians are right but don't care about it any more. She said now the churches are empty so mosques will also be the same.

Same plan is being implemented on the Muslims. Make them fight, argue, spread hatred so the next generations will end up hating islam as everyone is negative and arguing.

Christians also had reformists, people who wanted to change Christianity even more than before, they also issued fatwas, called each other as non Christians etc.

 

[M. Sarmad]

. I think he is crass in the way he refers to saints and some Sahaba R.A. But, I love it when he tears into molvis BS.

You may disagree with Eng Ali Mirza on many things but his position regarding Banu Umayyah and Mu'awiya I is much closer to mainstream Sunnis. Deobandis follow Wahhabi version of history and falsely present it as mainstream Sunni position. Dr Tahir ul Qadri has explained this in detail

What's correct is we follow Quran, Sunnah and Salaf us saliheen. So its the first 300 years of Islam which is the closest to the truth, now it doesn't mean we cannot follow those who came afterwards because they also followed the first 3 generations. If I claim I follow Quran and sunnah, I can still be misguided if I make up my own translations. This is how people trick you.

Traditional Islam is when your understanding of Quran and Sunnah is similar to the mufasarin and muhadaseen who wrote hundreds of tafsirs. Islam did not begin in the 21st century, we have history of amazing Islamic civilisation, even the western world praises it and writes books on them but the modern Muslims are clueless and don't have time to read.

Islam is very simple and easy but people with their plans make it difficult.



I used to

I'm merely pointing out historic facts regarding Hadith compilation.

Allama Iqbal notes in his seminal work 'The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam', even Abu Hanifah, regarded as “one of the greatest exponents of Muhammedan Law in Sunni Islam … made practically no use of … traditions”, even though there were collections available at that time made by other people no less than thirty years before his death. Nor did he collect any hadith for his use, unlike his peers Malik and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal.

Thus, according to Iqbal, “if modern Liberalism considers it safer not to make any indiscriminate use of them [Ahadith] as a source of law, it will be only following [the example of Abu Hanifah].”

[Iqbal, A. M., The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam, First Indian Edition 1997, p. 137.]

 

[Rusty2]

Another GLORIOUS day in the heaven that is the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan.
Funny enough, every one of those hardcore Islamic warriors beating that poor man would spit on the Quran if offered a one way ticked to the evil secular west.

 

[PDF]

^^This is factually incorrect

Hadith writing was prohibited during the life of the prophet (by Muhammad himself). There's a Sahih Hadith in Muslim Shareef in this regard narrated by Abu Saeed Khudri

Hadith writing was prohibited during the times of the rightly guided caliphs

Hadith compilation and writing began during the Umayyad rule (on orders of Umayyad Kings)

The earliest Hadith Book 'Muwatta' was compiled by Imam Malik. Imam Malik was born almost a hundred years after the death of the prophet (pbuh)

Compilation indeed was done a century later. But there is evidence that Hadiths were indeed recorded during the time of Prophet Muhammad SAW.

The contradictory hadiths can best be understood by a Muhadis who can tell the circumstances to the Hadith such as temporary ban during revelation of Quran, or the hadith meant not writing down Quran and Hadith at same time, book or place etc.

Please do also mention the situation and reasoning of why recording of Hadith was restricted during Caliphate. It is grossly wrong to simply give sweeping statement.

Stages Of The Prohibition Of Recording The Hadith

Let us now have a look at the stages of the prohibition from recording the Hadith and the gradual method followed in this respect, as well as the solution due to which the idea of the prohibition and the practice of Ijtihad became the legality adopted through all the confusing aspects explicated...

www.al-islam.org

Narrated Abu Huraira:
There is none among the companions of the Prophet who has narrated more Hadiths than I except `Abdullah bin `Amr (bin Al-`As) who used to write them and I never did the same.

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَمْرٌو، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي وَهْبُ بْنُ مُنَبِّهٍ، عَنْ أَخِيهِ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ، يَقُولُ مَا مِنْ أَصْحَابِ النَّبِيِّ
صلى الله عليه وسلم أَحَدٌ أَكْثَرَ حَدِيثًا عَنْهُ مِنِّي، إِلاَّ مَا كَانَ مِنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو فَإِنَّهُ كَانَ يَكْتُبُ وَلاَ أَكْتُبُ‏.‏ تَابَعَهُ مَعْمَرٌ عَنْ هَمَّامٍ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ‏.‏

Reference	: Sahih al-Bukhari 113
In-book reference	: Book 3, Hadith 55

Vol. 1, Book 3, Hadith 113


Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:

I used to write everything which I heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). I intended (by it) to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure? So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He signalled with his finger to him mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it.
______________

Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:
I used to write everything which I heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). I intended (by it) to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure? So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He signalled with his finger to him mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it.

حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، وَأَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الأَخْنَسِ، عَنِ الْوَلِيدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي مُغِيثٍ، عَنْ يُوسُفَ بْنِ مَاهَكَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو، قَالَ كُنْتُ أَكْتُبُ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ أَسْمَعُهُ مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أُرِيدُ حِفْظَهُ فَنَهَتْنِي قُرَيْشٌ وَقَالُوا أَتَكْتُبُ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ تَسْمَعُهُ وَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بَشَرٌ يَتَكَلَّمُ فِي الْغَضَبِ وَالرِّضَا فَأَمْسَكْتُ عَنِ الْكِتَابِ فَذَكَرْتُ ذَلِكَ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَأَوْمَأَ بِأُصْبُعِهِ إِلَى فِيهِ فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ اكْتُبْ فَوَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ مَا يَخْرُجُ مِنْهُ إِلاَّ حَقٌّ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Grade:

Sahih (Al-Albani)

صحيح (الألباني)

حكم :

Reference	: Sunan Abi Dawud 3646
In-book reference	: Book 26, Hadith 6
English translation	: Book 25, Hadith 3639

 

[Mentee]

^^This is factually incorrect

Hadith writing was prohibited during the life of the prophet (by Muhammad himself). There's a Sahih Hadith in Muslim Shareef in this regard narrated by Abu Saeed Khudri

Hadith writing was prohibited during the times of the rightly guided caliphs

Hadith compilation and writing began during the Umayyad rule (on orders of Umayyad Kings)

The earliest Hadith Book 'Muwatta' was compiled by Imam Malik. Imam Malik was born almost a hundred years after the death of the prophet (pbuh)

And the same imam Malik revisited many of the then prevalent Muslim practices of his time eminating from hadees during the last 25 or so years of his life . And when confronted by his students in madinah he'd reply in a philosophical manner "I don't know"

Compilation indeed was done a century later. But there is evidence that Hadiths were indeed recorded during the time of Prophet Muhammad SAW.

The contradictory hadiths can best be understood by a Muhadis who can tell the circumstances to the Hadith such as temporary ban during revelation of Quran, or the hadith meant not writing down Quran and Hadith at same time, book or place etc.

Please do also mention the situation and reasoning of why recording of Hadith was restricted during Caliphate. It is grossly wrong to simply give sweeping statement.

Stages Of The Prohibition Of Recording The Hadith

Let us now have a look at the stages of the prohibition from recording the Hadith and the gradual method followed in this respect, as well as the solution due to which the idea of the prohibition and the practice of Ijtihad became the legality adopted through all the confusing aspects explicated...

www.al-islam.org

Narrated Abu Huraira:
There is none among the companions of the Prophet who has narrated more Hadiths than I except `Abdullah bin `Amr (bin Al-`As) who used to write them and I never did the same.

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَمْرٌو، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي وَهْبُ بْنُ مُنَبِّهٍ، عَنْ أَخِيهِ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ، يَقُولُ مَا مِنْ أَصْحَابِ النَّبِيِّ
صلى الله عليه وسلم أَحَدٌ أَكْثَرَ حَدِيثًا عَنْهُ مِنِّي، إِلاَّ مَا كَانَ مِنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو فَإِنَّهُ كَانَ يَكْتُبُ وَلاَ أَكْتُبُ‏.‏ تَابَعَهُ مَعْمَرٌ عَنْ هَمَّامٍ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ‏.‏

Reference	: Sahih al-Bukhari 113
In-book reference	: Book 3, Hadith 55

Vol. 1, Book 3, Hadith 113


Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:

I used to write everything which I heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). I intended (by it) to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure? So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He signalled with his finger to him mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it.
______________

Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:
I used to write everything which I heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). I intended (by it) to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure? So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He signalled with his finger to him mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it.

حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، وَأَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الأَخْنَسِ، عَنِ الْوَلِيدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي مُغِيثٍ، عَنْ يُوسُفَ بْنِ مَاهَكَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو، قَالَ كُنْتُ أَكْتُبُ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ أَسْمَعُهُ مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أُرِيدُ حِفْظَهُ فَنَهَتْنِي قُرَيْشٌ وَقَالُوا أَتَكْتُبُ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ تَسْمَعُهُ وَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بَشَرٌ يَتَكَلَّمُ فِي الْغَضَبِ وَالرِّضَا فَأَمْسَكْتُ عَنِ الْكِتَابِ فَذَكَرْتُ ذَلِكَ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَأَوْمَأَ بِأُصْبُعِهِ إِلَى فِيهِ فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ اكْتُبْ فَوَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ مَا يَخْرُجُ مِنْهُ إِلاَّ حَقٌّ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Grade:

Sahih (Al-Albani)

صحيح (الألباني)

حكم :

Reference	: Sunan Abi Dawud 3646
In-book reference	: Book 26, Hadith 6
English translation	: Book 25, Hadith 3639

Brother why hadees isn't considered part of the Revelation If it was inspired by The Almighty ?

 

[Mentee]

What's correct is we follow Quran, Sunnah and Salaf us saliheen

Quran doesn't make any such distinction, the articles of faith one must believe in , are very explicitly mentioned in the Quran. Rest are just assumptions which lead to incidents of violence which we are discussing in this thread