Real Taliban are not terrorists.

[DarkStar]

these "musings" couinter the musings of "less secular than me" crowd and I know and the rest of us know that is what has really gotten to go - musing about who is and is not a kafir, but to counter them is well, trouble?

You can counter as many less seculars as you want, no one is going to stop you from doing this, and I may even applaud you for it.

Your conjectures regarding other people's motivations and beliefs is the issue that I have.

As for calling people kafirs, I have been an opponent of this since childhood, and I was raised this way, and what I have learnt throughout my life has fortified my thinking on this issue.

Theologically speaking, I disapprove of the lose way the term 'kafir' is pronounced upon others, so why you make this an issue is beyond me.

 

[Cheetah786]

=Omar1984;353752]Afghan Taliban existed long before 9/11 and they didnt kill any Muslim from Pakistan, I'm not Afghan so I cant speak in behalf of Afghans.

So all those terrorist that came from afghanistan and attacked shias while they were offering namaz or going about there buisness werent killing Muslims in pakistan.

Pakistani Taliban (TTP) headed by Baitullah Mehsud just emerged a few years ago after 9/11. TTP did not exist before 9/11 and it did not exist before foreigners made their way into Afghanistan. They are trying to fool the world with their name and trying to convince everyone they are Taliban when they are a totally different group from the original Taliban.

Last i checked 100s of 1000s of OF people from these areas were in Afghanistan fighting the russians and then stayed behind or left after words plus there is free movement of people between borders at any given hour of the day.
So what ever did happend to those that were there fighting with Afgahns and getting training in there camps could you please explain it to me what kind of training they were getting in afghanistan after the russian left.And its also recognised by our own government that big quantity of people that came from other countries settled in FATA area you think they changed there mentality after settling in FATA or continue on there ways and created or joined TTP.

Now tell me why should Pakistan harm the original Taliban when they never gave any problems to Pakistan and never harmed any Pakistanis?

Again as i said what about the attacks on shias are we not pakistanies or attacks on shias dont count.

Why did this TTP emerge? When did this TTP emerge? Whose funding TTP?
TTP headed Baitullah Mehsud is a threat to Pakistan and that threat came into existance when U.S. and India made their way into Afghanistan.

Shouldnt that question be directed to ISI as its there job to go after threats to pakistan with in the country or am i wrong.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I find it interesting that the forum's Muslim opponents of the forum's Islamist apologists get labeled, in this thread, as "secularists". It does reinforce the notion that some Muslims are "true" Muslims and some are not. Currently, I like the label "free" Muslims for those you have labeled as secularists. Is there is a better label for those Muslims who do not want to be forced, at the point of a gun, to live in the Islamists hell?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I find it interesting that the forum's Muslim opponents of the forum's Islamist apologists get labeled, in this thread, as "secularists". It does reinforce the notion that some Muslims are "true" Muslims and some are not. Currently, I like the label "free" Muslims for those you have labeled as secularists. Is there is a better label for those Muslims who do not want to be forced, at the point of a gun, to live in the Islamists hell?

Well, those who are not quite 'secularists' get labeled Islamists, so its a two way street.

In any case, I doubt Muse looks at secularism as a 'dirty word' - I know I don't. Secularism defines the sort of system he would like to see implemented in Pakistan IMO.

I personally do not like the label 'Islamist' since a mixture of religion and the state is not my first choice. I think that at the moment there is no alternative, and to push for a separation of church and state is not feasible, but such a separation, in some way, would be my ideal choice.

 

[All-Green]

TTP Taliban just emerged recently. They were not the original Taliban, they just call themselves Taliban to create confusion for the world. The original Taliban who ruled Afghanistan were nothing like these TTP Taliban headed by Baitullah Mehsud who kill fellow Pakistanis. TTP is being funded by RAW and CIA.

We have to differentiate between these groups, we cant be like U.S. and say kill them all. If you say kill them all then 50 new ones emerge.

I said we should take on TTP and leave the rest to Allah...
If there is indeed a sincere group of Taliban then surely they will not fight against Pakistan Army when it takes on TTP.....
Wasting time by thinking where the real Taliban are and where their allegiance lies is not something we have the luxury for....
We have a valid target which has more than justified a reason to be targeted by the state and by the Pakistanis in all spirit...


What now?

Do we lack that much conviction despite seeing our countrymen being kidnapped, beheaded, riddled with bullets and blown away into bits!!!
I kid you not dear forum members, this threat is only getting bigger and bigger not just because there is huge funding to help it (onus lies on us to prove the funding) but also because TTP are banking on the fact that most of the Pakistanis are not nationalistic and can be and certainly have always been seduced by what they perceive as a religious struggle.

Using (and abusing) the name of Islam the TTP have gained support from many outlawed religious militant organizations most of which were short on funding after the Afghan war and now have chosen another source.
These religious organizations have made common cause with the enemies of Pakistan and the killers of innocent Pakistanis in return for funding and their version of Shariah in which they are second to Allah and not answerable for their crimes.
They call themselves holy warriors but are just a gang of thugs and mercenaries terrorizing the populace.
The TTP attitude after SWAT deal has clarified that they are the problem and will remain to be the problem until removed by force...they are not even listening to someone like Sufi Muhammad who is very fond of them.

We sit here confused but sadly these TTP terrorists have no such lack of conviction and the unprecedented hypocrites that they are, have no qualms about using religion as a tool to gain power and support.
Day by day different groups are added into TTP because of its success in defying the State and more importantly forcing the people of Pakistan into submission.

Do we not take action knowing fully well that by not doing so we are giving an open license to anyone and everyone to gang up and start black mailing the people of Pakistan?
I can understand the Pakistan has many external enemies/rivals but would such lack of action and such lack of spirit in the nation to even defend itself from TTP not in turn encourage all enemies to redouble their efforts?

Why waste time in discovering the true motive/identity of TTP whereas they are already in front of us in the form of Mehsud, Fazlullah, Muslim Khan etc. and are being supported by TNSM and many other organizations.
Deal forcefully with TTP and make them an example and the others will be coerced into submission and will be integrated back into the nation.
Do not deal forcefully with TTP and i really shudder to think what will happen to this beautiful country we have been born in....

Every now and then we all come back to the difference between TTP and Taliban...this is our error and a grave one.
Deal with TTP and i am sure that we shall truly find out whether Taliban are supporting TTP or are supporting Pakistan....no other way to ascertain this...

P.S. even the original Taliban were severely intolerant in being anti Shia and targeted many Shia tribes so please why do we delude ourselves that they were the paragon of Islamic values?
This anti Shia trend is so obvious in the holy fathers of Taliban the Saudis as well.
I have conversed with a few Shia cab drivers etc in Saudi while traveling and they were all very very bitter at the Saudi anti Shia attitude.
Most of the oil wells are in Shia tribe territory but they are most backward and this only aggravates the situation even further...
I think this will bode ill for Saudia in the long run since they can be destabilized this way by their enemies...i think Saudis are making a mistake and need to address this problem which they have nurtured...

This kind of prejudice and resulting sectarian violence was unheard of in Pakistan but became very strong after Zia nurtured these religious organizations which were funded by Saudis and so also towed the Saudi line...with much more exaggerated force and cruelty!

Riaz Basra, one of the biggest monsters (who was killed in a government supported encounter) was one such militant who killed hundreds of innocent Muslims for being Shia and i shall never ever forget that in his funeral were thousands of supporters including Mullahs and clerics...What does that say about the disease that was not checked, what does it say about the brainwashed and mislead common man who is happy to support such people as long as someone else is declared a righteous kill?
Riaz was an ex Afghan war Mujahid and was injured while fighting the soviets...he was one of the Mujahideen and look at what he went on to do later on?
His organization the Laskar e Jhangvi later on started choosing strategic targets and killed 11 french technicians who were helping Pakistan build the french submarines...our honored guests and strategic partners...This is how these loose ends have tied a noose around our very necks.

We failed in checking the indoctrination of the Mujahideen, training centers, Madrassas and hardliner clerics etc. in terms of the long term implications...there were many loose ends which we did not address... Hell yes the US has its hands dirty in the Afghan Jihad as well but US is thousands of miles away and quite safe from the ravages of the aftershock which Pakistan is subjected to...

Sectarian violence was nothing short of terrorism and was at its peak in the early 90s so it is not something recent in Pakistan...assassination of Iranian cadets...assassination of Iranian diplomat etc are just some of the high level examples of the atrocities these rogue religious organizations were perpetrating and at the same time isolating Pakistan from Iran...of course they were not supported by our Government but why did we fail to check them...Why?
We became a proxy battleground between Shia and Sunni organizations.
Is it because of our fear that they use the name of Islam and we shall be seen as anti Islam in cutting the roots of these organizations?
Why do we feel guilty/afraid to do so?

Even now i see the same laxity which we have observed during and after the Afghan Jihad and it scares me because i do not want to leave my beloved land to such vermin who will pervert Islam

Islam is a glorious way of life and a source of peace for us but that does not mean we do not take on the ones who are abusing it in the form of a farce staged in its very name?

 

[spurdozer]

Neo

just because some one calls it a personal attack does not make it one - I think these guys are frustrated that their proislamuist agenda is being confronted and with as much enthusiam as they project their ISLAMIST POINT OF VIEW.

Now your mods have deliberately started drama because they their point of view is being confronted. The onloy people your mods seem to on the side of are islamist supporters, whereas we apakistanis get short shrift - don't you think that initself suggests a problem?

Sir muse,
I just wanted to ask you, Are you against ISLAMISM or TERRORISM/EXTREMISM?

 

[RabzonKhan]

Afghan-Taliban Good, (because they kill Afghans) Pakistani-Taliban Bad, because they kill us, hypocrisy at its best.

 

[dabong1]

So all those terrorist that came from afghanistan and attacked shias while they were offering namaz or going about there buisness werent killing Muslims in pakistan..

When did all the anti shia stuff start in pakistan......was it not during the time of khomenei who was trying to export the iranian revolution to the shias of pakistan?
The taliban did not start the anti shia thing but ended up with it.

Again as i said what about the attacks on shias are we not pakistanies or attacks on shias dont count...

It wasnt the taliban that where attacking shias in pakistan.

 

[dabong1]

Afghan-Taliban Good, (because they kill Afghans) :

And the US-NATO only kill hundreds of innocents by mistake but the same excuse can not be used for the taliban.

Pakistani-Taliban Bad, because they kill us, hypocrisy at its best.

There is no pakistan taliban.....theres a bunch of rebels-terrorist holed in FATA being called the taliban to confuse people into thinking thatt he afghan taliban is somehow involved in the atacks on the pakistani army.

 

[ajpirzada]

we are confusing two different things here. one is their interpretation of islam and second is their 'Jihad'.
their interpretation of islam is wrong or atleast i dont agree with it. its the same for those afghan talibans or these pakistani TTP and swat talibans etc.
but when it comes to jihad then we have got to answer this question which this thread is on about. those afghan talibans are fighting against invading forces. afghan talibans only target either the foreign troops or the puppet gov which has been installed by US. they have got a clear objective which is to get rid of foreign boots from their soil. and to me this is the jihad in its real sence. if someone attacks my country and that also without any logical reason, why should i not fight back??
now comin to so called pakistani talibans, they have got no gud reason to carry out bomb blasts, blow up schools, kill muslims just bec they belong to shia sect or demand jizia from minorities. they were never the gov and according to shariah law they should be killed coz thats the punishment for person creatin anarchy in the state. these ppl have got to do nothing with afghan taliban like u see they dont take any orders from them and do wateva they feel lik. also they have been joined by many criminals who were hiding from the state for various reasons. afghan talibans have clearly told all the talibans to not target pakistan. so theoraticaly speaking if an indian calls himself pakistani he wont become pakistani.

 

[RabzonKhan]

And the US-NATO only kill hundreds of innocents by mistake but the same excuse can not be used for the taliban.




There is no pakistan taliban.....theres a bunch of rebels-terrorist holed in FATA being called the taliban to confuse people into thinking thatt he afghan taliban is somehow involved in the atacks on the pakistani army.

Guess what, the “bunch of rebels-terrorist holed in FATA” (Baitullah Mehsud, Hafiz Gul Bahadur, and Mullah Mohammad Nazir) have formed an alliance called the Shoora Ittehad-ul-Mujahiddin council under the leadership of Mullah Omar, so please, lets stop fooling ourselves that there are good Taliban and bad Taliban, they are all one.

 

[muse]

Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
I find it interesting that the forum's Muslim opponents of the forum's Islamist apologists get labeled, in this thread, as "secularists". It does reinforce the

notion that some Muslims are "true" Muslims and some are not. Currently, I like the label "free" Muslims for those you have labeled as secularists. Is there is a better label for those Muslims who do not want to be forced, at the point of a gun, to live in the Islamists hell?

Well, those who are not quite 'secularists' get labeled Islamists, so its a two way street.

In any case, I doubt Muse looks at secularism as a 'dirty word' - I know I don't. Secularism defines the sort of system he would like to see implemented in Pakistan IMO.

I personally do not like the label 'Islamist' since a mixture of religion and the state is not my first choice. I think that at the moment there is no alternative, and to push for a separation of church and state is not feasible, but such a separation, in some way, would be my ideal choice

.


Unfortunately since Others have decided that they will talk for me, it becomes necessary to clear up the issue.

There are no shades or less than or greater than - to go that route is less than credible, it's tactful and diplomatic, fa shew, but intellectually barren.

To think of Islam in the terms of seperation of church and state, is a poor defintion to begin with, Deen and Duniya is not a either or kind of deal - Deen and Duniya calls for Balance --- Within the idea of secularism, is the division of objective and subjective - again you may think of it as a balance -Where is the role of religion? It is in culture and conscience -- think carefully about it - in CULTURE and in CONSCIENCE -- is this other than Deen and Duniya??

Some think that governance in Muslim societies must be a copy of what governance in Muslim societies was in the 7th century -- Is this other than an idiot notion?? After all, are we in the 7th century? Are we in a particular geography? Are we in a tribal culture?? What then is this idea other than an idiot notion?

Certainly we are being pushed into one, Call for IMPOSING Shariah are to set up a framework for such a tribal society --

With Islamism unfortunately, religion is turned in to a ideology, and in the particular case of Islamism today, we must look at their intellectual roots - Maududi was a Marxist journalist before his Maulana days and his work is gearde to intellectuals of his day who were primarily motivated by the idiom of Marxism - In the case of The Egyptian, his appeal is to Fascists -- in both cases these ideological basis have formed a understanding of Islam that is completely at odds with Islam itself --- Let me give you a example, Does Islam And Quran ever suggest that society must do away with poverty?? But Islamist do -- why is this important?? Quran calls for creating ever more Just , ever more equitable societies, but no where does it ever suggest that poor and poverty will end -- so what? So we can see in this small example that Islamist and Muslim are not the same thing.

One day some here, whose personal position is at odds with the Islamists, will have the courage of conviction to assert that publically.
Till then, consider, will you have done these misguided any favor by not setting them on the straight and narrow?

 

[TOPGUN]

thanks a lot topgun for speaking straight when it matters,

My pleasure Moscow! i just hope others can open there eyes as well and see wat these cowards are doing every where !

 

[Omar1984]

Guess what, the “bunch of rebels-terrorist holed in FATA” (Baitullah Mehsud, Hafiz Gul Bahadur, and Mullah Mohammad Nazir) have formed an alliance called the Shoora Ittehad-ul-Mujahiddin council under the leadership of Mullah Omar, so please, lets stop fooling ourselves that there are good Taliban and bad Taliban, they are all one.

Mullah Omar is the same man who told Baitullah Mehsud and his TTP to stop killing Pakistani troops a while back before forming an alliance.

Here are some threads on so called "Pakistan Taliban" TTP, they are certainly not the same as the original Afghan Taliban.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/war-terror/21546-ttp-warns-let-pro-pakistan-tribal-elders-attacks.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/war-terror/21846-taliban-threatens-anti-india-groups.html "Pakistani Taliban" threatens anti-india groups.

 

[DarkStar]

Thanks for the links...a real eyeopener...I suggest that you revive those old threads...