Reactive armor does not help Ukrainian tanks

[500]

You are suggesting the calculation does include Russian SU mobile antitank pieces (SU-76, SU-100 etc) but doesn't include German STuG? Note it says "AFV", not tank.

Sd.Kfz.Typeroduction period:Number produced:
101PzKpfw I1934-1943: 1563
121PzKpfw II1935-1944: 1924
(LT-35)PzKpfw 35(t)1935-1939: 424
140PzKpfw 38(t)1938-1942: 1411
138/2Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer1944-1945: 2584
141PzKpfw III1936-1944: 5733
142/167Stug III/IV1940-1945: 10548
161PzKpfw IV1936-1945: 8544
171PzKpfw V Panther1942-1945: 5976
173Panzerjager V Jagdpanther1944-1945: 425
181PzKpfw VI Tiger1942-1944: 1355
184Panzerjager Ferdinand/Elephant1943: 90
182Tiger II Ausf. B "Konigstiger"1944-1945: 489
186Jagdpanzer VI Jagdtiger1944-1945: 85

In red are Stug and Jagdpanzer, essentially casemated guns on tracks.

Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Germans produced 60% tanks and 40% self propelled guns.
Soviets produced 95% tanks and 5% self propelled guns.

Thats why counting tanks alone is not fair, just like not fair to count self propelled guns alone. They should be counted together.

According to ur table USSR lost 83.5 K tanks and Germany lost 25.6 K tanks thus ratio is 1 to 4.4.

But if we count tanks together with self propelled guns then USSR lost 97 K , while Germans lost about 35 K. Thus ratio is 1 to 2.8

 

[Black Beret]

its not only tank cap, it also depends on the crew training and tactics and the foremost important thing is devotion and motivation to fight a Low intensity conflict. Some Armies are using even T59 II MP effectively in sub conventional war and the best example is Pakistan Army even without ERA............. Plz think

its not only tank cap, it also depends on the crew training and tactics and the foremost important thing is devotion and motivation to fight a Low intensity conflict. Some Armies are using even T59 II MP effectively in sub conventional war and the best example is Pakistan Army even without ERA............. Plz think

It means Germany is good fighter

Germany is good fighter

Germans produced 60% tanks and 40% self propelled guns.
Soviets produced 95% tanks and 5% self propelled guns.

Thats why counting tanks alone is not fair, just like not fair to count self propelled guns alone. They should be counted together.

According to ur table USSR lost 83.5 K tanks and Germany lost 25.6 K tanks thus ratio is 1 to 4.4.

But if we count tanks together with self propelled guns then USSR lost 97 K , while Germans lost about 35 K. Thus ratio is 1 to 2.8

 

[Black Beret]

German tanks are far better than Russian tanks in sense of manoeuvrability and fire power. Jst check the history. They had flexibility of making different AFVs as per their requirements.

 

[DejanSRB]

Iraqi T72 was inferior to Kuwait M84(made in Yugoslavia) during Iraqi-Kuwait war.

So i doubt that Russians will replace its T80 with T72.
It is normal for Russians to have more t72 (close to 10k) then t80( 4.5k) becouse T72 is longer in service.

 

[Penguin]

Germans produced 60% tanks and 40% self propelled guns.
Soviets produced 95% tanks and 5% self propelled guns.

Thats why counting tanks alone is not fair, just like not fair to count self propelled guns alone. They should be counted together.

According to ur table USSR lost 83.5 K tanks and Germany lost 25.6 K tanks thus ratio is 1 to 4.4.

But if we count tanks together with self propelled guns then USSR lost 97 K , while Germans lost about 35 K. Thus ratio is 1 to 2.8

1) We're not looking at the build-ratio's but at the loss ratio.
2) the table from achtingpanzer said AFVs (not: tanks), so I don't know where you get the idea SP guns are included for one side but not for the other.
3) the table from wiki says

Soviet Union:

• 83.540 tanks destroyed or damaged of all causes
• 13.011 SPGs destroyed or damaged of all causes
• 36,700 Armoured car and half-track.

Germany:

• Around 40,000 tanks and SPGs destroyed or captured (~2,000 in North Africa, ~4,000 in Western Front and ~34,000 in Eastern Front)
• Around 87,329 half-track trucks; 36,703 half-track tractors; 21,880 half-track armoured personnel carriers destroyed or captured.
• 226,300 Military cars and 97,470 Military motor-cycles destroyed or captured.
• 159,144 Anti-tank guns and Artillery destroyed or captured.
• 86,400 Mortars destroyed or captured.

Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that is 83,5k russian tanks + 13k russian SPGs = 96.5k tanks plus SPGs of Russia versus 40k tanks plus SPGs of Germany.
I don't see where you get the 25,6k German tanks from, nor how you come to 35k tanks plus SPGs for Germany.

 

[Penguin]

The table from Achtung Panzer yield 27419 tanks and 13732 Stug/Jagdpanzer for Germany, which is 41151 total, which corresponds to the around 40k of the wiki page.
Panzer Statistics
I do believe this lumps early SPG in with tanks, e.g. for Pz II and 38(t) (Marder vehicles for example)
See German armored fighting vehicle production during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Soviet production number here Soviet combat vehicle production during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Light
17,2k - 17,6k tanks
12,3k SpGs

Med
57,6k tanks
4,9k SpGs

Heavy
8,7k tanks
5,1k SpGs

Subtotals
83,5k - 83,9k tanks
22,3k SpGs (21%, versus just over 33% for Germans )

Total
105,8k - 106,2 tanks and SPGs

 

[Bratva]

@Penguin @500 How come in 30's and 40's those nations could produce 1000's of tank per year and in 21st century, at most 50-100 tanks are produced per year ?

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin @500 How come in 30's and 40's those nations could produce 1000's of tank per year and in 21st century, at most 50-100 tanks are produced per year ?

Tanks were much simpler and rudimentary then. Plus, major nations were on a full war footing so a war-economy (command economy). Much standardization, simplification > fast, cheap production in large numbers.

 

[500]

1) We're not looking at the build-ratio's but at the loss ratio.
2) the table from achtingpanzer said AFVs (not: tanks), so I don't know where you get the idea SP guns are included for one side but not for the other.
3) the table from wiki says

If u count loss ratio u should count both tanks and SPG, because gremans produced nearly 50/50 tanks and SPG while Soviets made almost solely tanks.

Soviets produced 87.3 K tanks and 17.5 K SPG
Germans produced 25.7 K tanks and 18 K SPG.

@Penguin @500 How come in 30's and 40's those nations could produce 1000's of tank per year and in 21st century, at most 50-100 tanks are produced per year ?

Today nations produce millions of cars each year. Tanks in 40-es were not much more complicated.

 

[Penguin]

On topic:

Sixty-two tanks were destroyed in the first month's fighting in Chechnya. Over 98% (apparently 61 tanks) were knocked out by rounds which impacted in areas not protected by reactive armor. The Russians employed the T-72 and T-80 tank in Chechnya. They were both invulnerable to frontal shots, since the front is heavily armored and covered with reactive armor. Kill shots were made at those points where there is no reactive armor--the sides and rear and, on top shots, on the drivers hatch and the rear of the turret and rear deck. Early in the conflict, most Russian tanks went into combat without their reactive armor. They were particularly vulnerable to damaging or lethal frontal hits without it.

If u count loss ratio u should count both tanks and SPG, because gremans produced nearly 50/50 tanks and SPG while Soviets made almost solely tanks.

Uhm, exactly where didn't I count that way? Oh, I'm sorry, I initially didn't count but quoted existing counts! Still,don't see where/ how/why you take issue.

quote="500, post: 6156403, member: 31281"]Soviets produced 87.3 K tanks and 17.5 K SPG
Germans produced 25.7 K tanks and 18 K SPG.[/quote]
And the source for that - which you could kindly share, seeing as your numbers are not from the sources I quoted - would be ....