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Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

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My country, the USA, often makes a point that it greatly regrets that civilians are sometimes killed during its operations in places like Waziristan or Afghanistan or Iraq or Yemen or Lebanon. We call such regrettable deaths: "collateral damage". So, now Mr. Davis kills two and someone else, unknown, from our Embassy, kills another. Regrettable collateral damage our diplomats might say. So, I think Pakistan should turn to the USA and say: "Well, we are very, very sorry, but Mr. Davis is now collateral damage also. He must suffer the consequences of his incompetence. If he dies or must spend the rest of his life in a Pakistani prison, well, c'est-la guerre ....Collateral damage happens to Pakistanis, you surely know that! And now, here, you see, collateral damage happens to Americans as well. So sorry, but we can't help it. The rule of law has its consequences. "
 
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My country, the USA, often makes a point that it greatly regrets that civilians are sometimes killed during its operations in places like Waziristan or Afghanistan or Iraq or Yemen or Lebanon. We call such regrettable deaths: "collateral damage". So, now Mr. Davis kills two and someone else, unknown, from our Embassy, kills another. Regrettable collateral damage our diplomats might say. So, I think Pakistan should turn to the USA and say: "Well, we are very, very sorry, but Mr. Davis is now collateral damage also. He must suffer the consequences of his incompetence. If he dies or must spend the rest of his life in a Pakistani prison, well, c'est-la guerre ....Collateral damage happens to Pakistanis, you surely know that! And now, here, you see, collateral damage happens to Americans as well. So sorry, but we can't help it. The rule of law has its consequences. "

I wish i could shake your hand for your blunt honesty... God Bless.
 
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Loyalty to the land of birth is understandable, but not when that country is at wrong. I, myself was born and bred in a middle eastern country, But that does not mean that I start defending That country in a conflict when its actually not on the right side of law. I would go as far as sayin that you hold a tremendous opprotunity as an american pakistani to further the interests of the poor bleeding people of ur descency. Remember when people like you (american pakistanis) try to bomb time square, its pakistan thats blamed.. An american of 'Pakistani' descendent! Why is it not an american? Why do we have to pay the price of something you americans do in that country?

As an American with Pakistani origins, I try every single day to be an ambassador for Pakistan. But doing that does not mean fiery speeches or blind support. It means a whole lot more Sir, to excel in deeds and character and so many more intagibles, before people around you trust you enough to start being influenced in a positive way.

I find it insulting that American Pakistani's wont take a stand for Pakistan just because of their love for the land they are born in. If even you wont speak for us then who will? If you wont try and persuade ur american people how we should be treated and respected then who would? Up till now I have always had a deep sense of respect for our overseas pakistanis as I always maintained it is good that we have a voice in that country. But hearing people like you, Im begining to think, if amerian/british pakistani people really bothered about us at all? Atleast it doesnt show. Should you not question ur authorities that 3 people have died, atleast one of them is truely innocent, as an American how do you u feel about this? Should you not say, hang on a minute, why are we protecting the driver of that car who killed someone for no reason (assuming you take it that the others were robers, atleast the third wasnt).

But Sir I AM taking a stand in support of Pakistan. It is just that it is more subtle and deeper than mere "Hang the Spy!" rhetoric that many are simply incapable of appreciating. I am trying to avoid the inevitably disastrous consequences for Paksitan that many simply refuse to believe due to their unjustified bravado. Is that not helping Pakistan? May be not according to some here, but still as best as I can make it.

The process of questioning and even changing US foreign policy is nothing like you might imagine. The effective route passes through the roots of political power, in district and local party meetings, in fund raisers and participating in the political process. While I am also doing that, it is a long way before our voice is heard, but I have no doubt that it will be heard in due course. However, this will be heard only if we participate in the political setup according to established rules, not by triyng to blow up Times Square.

Am not very articulate in my words bit i hope you understand the bottomline Im trying to justify here. Thanks.

I thank you for your attempt to communicate with me positively, and I hope that my reply makes sense to you as well. I look forward to more discussion. If that is off topic for this thread, we can take it to a new thread.
 
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Vcheng, thanks for replying back so promptly. Im gna get back on this as soon as I can get back home. Iphone is not the friendliest phone for def.pk. And I dont think there is a need for another thread as we are still discussing in relation to the same case. Plus we have to pass these three weeks dont we? :)
 
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long time-----truthseeker----solomon2 and american eagle would remember the case of the new york SUBWAY SHOOTER-----guess what happened to him----. Maybe solomon2 can throw some light on it or maybe our friend american eagle can. If not here is the gist of it-----the subway shooter was a young american man who travelled the subway at the night time after work to get to his home---he had previously been robbed----so this time he packed a gun---when he got jumped by a couple of blacks with guns----he pulled out his gun and shot them both down---tragically both lived----now you might be thinking of a happy ending-----I will let solomon2 finish it off---.
I believe you are thinking of the Bernard Goetz case a quarter-century back. Goetz, who had been previously robbed on the subway, shot four unarmed men who surrounded him and asked him for money. Charged with numerous crimes including murder, all were dismissed by the jury save the illegal weapons charge. One of his victims did win a multi-million dollar judgment in a civil case, but after Goetz attack violence in New York City began to decline.

We had a similar incident in my home town back in the early 90s: A jeweler who had been previously robbed was robbed again, but this time he chased after the robber and shot him and his driver point-blank as they attempted to escape in his car. The jury refused to convict the jeweler. link The result - quite unforeseen - has been that instead of two jewelers in downtown there are now at least ten, including one prominent diamond retailer. link

there were thousand of iraqi women girls raped and boys sodomized by the american soldiers
No. Oh, there were rumors that would happen before the invasion, but the reality was very different: the few miscreants were punished as criminals, and Iraqis lost any fear they might have had of such things. I don't think it wasn't even used by Iraqi insurgents as propaganda inside Iraq because everyone could see it was false. (Outside Iraq was another matter.)

So---the bottomlinbe is that there are one too many spins in the U S law----it is beyond the comprehension of an ordinary citizen---so pak must do what it wants to-----charge Mr Davis---prosecute him---
It doesn't have to do that; Pakistan could, if it applies its resources, pursue Davis in U.S. criminal or civil courts.
 
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So, I think Pakistan should turn to the USA and say: "Well, we are very, very sorry, but Mr. Davis is now collateral damage also. He must suffer the consequences of his incompetence. If he dies or must spend the rest of his life in a Pakistani prison, well, c'est-la guerre ....Collateral damage happens to Pakistanis, you surely know that! And now, here, you see, collateral damage happens to Americans as well. So sorry, but we can't help it. The rule of law has its consequences. "

More realistically, Davis will be released.
But the other 500 Davises roaming around Pakistan may become victims of 'accidents'.
 
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the americans are playing two positions. firstly he is a diplomat and should be taken back to the US. second is even if he is not a diplomat he was acting in self defence so its ok if he murdered those two people...its disinformaton.
Don't say "the americans" and don't distort. Every U.S. official from Obama down says Davis has full immunity. It is only Pakistani officials who claim partial immunity, and I am pointing out that even if Pakistani officials believe that Davis had only the weaker "consular" immunity (highly unlikely for a security man) he still should have been released from police custody the moment police on the scene determined that it was probably self-defense because that is what the consular treaty prescribes; Davis could only be called back to court after a "final" determination had been made.
 
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The US has acted with criminal intent by aiding the driver who killed Ibad to escape.

Now, was that driver also enjoying blanket immunity because he is an American? A simple driver? A test case now to judge whole scenario! Will he face trial in US? or if the above news item is just an propaganda as has always been the case with Pakistani media atleast according to Solomon2 then will US show respect for Pakistan's Law and hand him over to Pakistan to try him?
We've heard a lot less about this driver. In some ways it's more interesting. Everyone is keeping mum. We don't even know if the driver is an American.

In both cases the underlying question is the same: how can the Pakistani courts justify their jurisdiction in the face of multiple treaties denying them such?
 
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More realistically, Davis will be released.
But the other 500 Davises roaming around Pakistan may become victims of 'accidents'.
That's why it isn't enough to simply release Davis; Pakistani officials should attempt to explain what diplomatic immunity means to the people and even attempt to pursue the Davis affair in U.S. courts.
 
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The good news is that cooler heads seem to be regaining the upper hand on BOTH sides:

from: Davis spat: US makes moves to repair relations | Newspaper | DAWN.COM



Davis spat: US makes moves to repair relations

ISLAMABAD: The United States has revived its high-level engagement with Pakistan after keeping it suspended for almost a fortnight because of the impasse over immunity for its jailed staffer Raymond Davis.

Observers interpreted the resumption of contacts as an attempt by the US to tone down the rhetoric so that prospects for a settlement through blood money or some other ‘out of the box solution’ got a boost.


Pressure from extremist and rightwing political groups on the bereaved families for spurning any compensation offer, however, remains the sticking point, even though both sides have largely agreed to work together towards ending the ominous stalemate, according to sources.

The resumption of contacts was marked by the visit of a ‘junior’ US Congressional delegation, led by Senator Robert Corker, a member of the Senate committee on foreign relations. Other legislators in his delegation included members of the committees on armed services and budget.

Marc Grossman, the newly-appointed US Special Envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, would also be visiting Pakistan in the first week of next month. But, more importantly, the Americans have reaffirmed their commitment to deliver on the pledges for economic and security assistance.

The reset in Pak-US ties, which many had believed to have reached their nadir during the diplomatic spat over immunity for Davis, followed a visit to Islamabad last week by John Kerry, the influential chairman of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Mr Kerry’s trip was described by both sides as a “relationship saving” mission instead of what was widely tipped as an attempt to save Davis.

Both sides, a top diplomatic source revealed, had during Senator Kerry’s visit agreed on the need for sending out feel-good messages to ensure a solution. “Public messaging has changed for the better and would become even better in coming days,” a Pakistani diplomat told Dawn.

Things now appear to be moving according to the step-by-step approach agreed between the two sides during Mr Kerry’s visit.

The Americans realise that some ‘out of the box’ solution would have to be found for an issue that had taken to its peak an already high anti-Americanism in Pakistan, the source said. “The government’s request for more time from the Lahore High Court to testify on Davis’s status is meant to buy more space for the US to settle the issue with the heirs of the victims.”

Another source at the delegation’s meeting with Prime Minister Gilani disclosed that the tone of American functionaries had changed greatly.

Mr Gilani, during an interaction with the American legislators, welcomed “the positive messaging emanating from both sides and emphasised that these should continue and go beyond the Davis incident in order to build upon the strategic partnership as well as the trust and confidence between the two countries”.

The prime minister expressed the hope that the US would remain focussed on shared objectives of defeating terrorists and extremists, besides restoration of peace and stability in Afghanistan.

While doing so, the premier stressed the US should not allow any irritant to distract them.

A common aspect of Congressmen’s meetings with both President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani was that they discussed a wide range of issues, instead of focusing just on Davis. Moreover, there was a renewed acknowledgement of Pakistan’s sacrifices in the war on terror and the importance of cementing the strategic relationship – some of the components in relations that were lost in the vociferous debate over immunity for Davis.

THE SPOILERS: Although it looks very clear that after weeks of standoff, both countries are now seriously trying to defuse the situation, circles close to the government are wary of the posture taken by right wingers and militant groups.

Prime Minister Gilani, during Mr Kerry’s visit, had floated the idea of settling the dispute through blood money and efforts had been initiated in that direction. Right wing political groups and militant elements, sources say, are now creating hurdles by pressuring the bereaved families to insist on Davis’s trial and reject any compensation offer.

The Americans have also raised the matter at the highest level with the Pakistan government. The US embassy, in one of its latest communications, identified groups blocking the reparation effort and, according to one source, the Lashkar-i-Taiba is among them.
 
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That's why it isn't enough to simply release Davis; Pakistani officials should attempt to explain what diplomatic immunity means to the people and even attempt to pursue the Davis affair in U.S. courts.

Agreed, if the US agrees to have its 'diplomats' behave as such.

Diplomats don't go around making clandestine calls to terrorist organizations, photographing military installations and driving around illegally with even more illegal weapons.
 
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We've heard a lot less about this driver. In some ways it's more interesting. Everyone is keeping mum. We don't even know if the driver is an American.

In both cases the underlying question is the same: how can the Pakistani courts justify their jurisdiction in the face of multiple treaties denying them such?

The Pakistani court has already given the order to have him arrested as per law. Pretty much that means do not raid the Consulate, but if you can nab him at any time out of the consulate, do it.
 
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The Pakistani court has already given the order to have him arrested as per law. Pretty much that means do not raid the Consulate, but if you can nab him at any time out of the consulate, do it.

How was his identity established? In any case, this order is several days late. At the time the driver accompanied Senator Kerry out of Pakistan, there was no order against him, and one cannot believe that his departure was not facilitated by Pakistani authorities.
 
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Agreed, if the US agrees to have its 'diplomats' behave as such.

Diplomats don't go around making clandestine calls to terrorist organizations, photographing military installations and driving around illegally with even more illegal weapons.

Exactly!! Raymond Davis is not an example for ANY of my country's diplomats to follow. Hillary Clinton should let him twist in the Pakistani wind as a lesson to any other "cowboy diplomats" that we may have stationed in Pakistan, or even Italy, for that matter. Our diplomats should be read the riot act: If you can't do the job diplomatically, then you are not a diplomat!!!!! Blowing two people away using an illegal weapon, on a public street, is NOT diplomatic!!! I am really, really tired of all the American energy being expended in an effort to save this guy's a$$! Hillary, he is not worth it!!!
 
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