Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[Omar1984]

If Pakistan releases this so called US "diplomat" then that sends a clear message to the world that anyone who claims to be a diplomat can come to Pakistan kill Pakistani citizens and walk away free.


Sad to see that even in Pakistan, a white man's life is far more precious than a Pakistani man's life. Pakistan says that it has won independence from the engraiz but it still is under control of the engraiz to this day. If Pakistan was a sovereign independent country, it wouldn't have US drones killing Pakistani citizens in Pakistani territory and it wouldnt have Americans killing Pakistanis in broad day light and Americans expecting the American man to walk free after committing murder.

 

[r3alist]

If Pakistan releases this so called US "diplomat" then that sends a clear message to the world that anyone who claims to be a diplomat can come to Pakistan kill Pakistani citizens and get away with it.

no.

it sends a message to the world that the pak govt. is complicit in facilitating these blackwater goons and whatever destructive missions they carry out.

thats right, the pak govt., as well as elements in the army are complicit in the downfall of the country, wake up.

 

[Awesome]

How could you possibly arrive at such a sweeping conclusion?

Foreign Minister says: No immunity
Foreign minister fired
New Ministerial set up says, hey there's immunity now

May be thats legal in the US, but not in Pakistan. It will be challenged.

 

[Solomon2]

If Pakistan releases this so called US "diplomat" then that sends a clear message to the world that anyone who claims to be a diplomat can come to Pakistan kill Pakistani citizens and get away with it.

If the Pakistanis were attempting armed robbery of the diplomat, isn't that the way it should be? If not, why not?

 

[r3alist]

If the Pakistanis were attempting armed robbery of the diplomat, isn't that the way it should be? If not, why not?

he was not a diplomat, he was quite clearly a trained killer, thug and agitator.


you americans just happen to call these guys diplomats.


is it any wonder the iraqi;s and afghans wanted these lunatics out, yet the us deems them critical.

tells me all i need to know.

 

[Solomon2]

Foreign Minister says: No immunity

Uh-uh. He didn't say no immunity. He said no "blanket" immunity - meaning Davis had the weaker, "consular" type. Yet even if the former FO isn't fibbing, since the circumstances make it clear that the "grave crime" of murder was NOT committed (only manslaughter at most) that would mean that even under consular immunity Davis can't be arrested while an investigation or prosecution is in progress.

...hey there's immunity now. May be thats legal in the US, but not in Pakistan.

I think you're right that in the U.S. if a similar situation occurred full diplomatic immunity would be extended to the offending diplomat. He might not even be kicked out of the U.S. (But if a Pakistani consular officer tried that today or tomorrow I doubt such courtesy would be extended.)

 

[The HBS Guy]

It will be challenged.

That's immaterial. In case of diplomatic immunity, courts have no say. None whatsoever.

If the FO says he has diplomatic immunity, the court cannot do anything. ANYTHING.

That's how diplomatic immunity works. You might not like it, but that's how it works.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Is it that big a deal for the US to provide a few documents in the court?

How difficult could it seriously be for the US to prove RD's identity?

I take it as given that it is actually RD's true identity even if it is not. It's not a big ask to prove this in a Pakistani court.

Let's talk beyond that.

It can be proven that it is indeed RD's true identity.

It can be proven that RD enjoys diplomatic immunity, very easily now that even the Pakistani govt. seems willing to let him go.

What else is left?

I see RD on his way home within next 15-20 days.

That is irrelevant to the point you were making, and I argued against, in the post I responded to - of blaming the ISI or some other Pakistani agency for issuing a visa to Davis.

Since you admit that the US can fabricate the necessary documentation to establish whatever it needs with respect to its officials, then you are in fact agreeing with me that no Pakistani agency could have determined what Davis's true identity was. What they could have done they were doing - asking for details ( in the context of what their functions were to be as part of the US embassy) and granting diplomatic status based on that, and earlier refusing visas outright, until the US arm-twisted Zardari into issuing them.

 

[pakdefender]

Here are latest facts

- during the murder investigation Raymond Davis refused to co-operate with the police , instead he tried to get up from his chair and tried to leave the room , his this behaviour shows the total disregard him and his American colleagues have with regards to the due process

- the leaked documents show Raymond Davis has a 200,000 USD contract , which indicates that by all means this guy falls in the same category as backwater operatives

- the Americans , through their crony Zardari , have gotten then foreign minster of Pakistan Shah Mahmood Qureshi sacked , they have now gotten the Foreign Office spokesperson Abdul Basit sacked and replaced.

- The police investigation has confirmed the act committed by the American gunman was an act of cold blooded murder

- The ex-Foreign minister had made it very clear that this murder does not have unlimited diplomatic immunity.


This is clear cut case of murder in the first degree, obstruction of justice , possession of illegal fire arms , espionage , failure to co-operate with the local investigators and on top of al this miss use of the diplomatic immunity clause of the Vienna convention.

There is NO way that this guy should be let off, justice must take its course and if the family of the deceased demand that the law of 'Qisas' be applied and they seek the termination of Raymond Davis then that must happen.

There is another thing that can and should come out of this and that is the illegal removal of the Foreign Minster and now the FO spokesperson.

The removal of the Chief justice of Pakistan sparked a wakening in the Lawyer community and they rallied to save their institution there is need of the same to be done by foreign office employees to save their institution from being destroyed by corrupt forces being supported by the united states of America.


In all this the most interesting thing is that NONE of the main US TV networks are giving any converge to this event that leads us to the follows

- the claim that western press is free and fair and blah blah is just bull
- The American government has a lot to hide in this case
- Should this case come to light in the US media, there will be questions and the US Gov will be hard pressed by the taxpayer to justify the paying 200,000 USD to gun totting murderous mercenaries while at home many new college graduates are job less and under debt.
- Reading some of the comments from US citizen on the blogs and forums it seem clear that close to 40-45% percent share the same suspicion about the activities of this Raymond Davis as have been expressed by ordinary Pakistanis.
- The most vehement supporters (and liars) in this case are the ex-Mil personal who have huge stake in the mercenary industry that took shape in the Bush era and also the powerful and the corrupt US officials who take their cut from the payouts to these mercenaries.


One can safely conclude that Pakistan is in a much stronger position in this case and we must not give in to US pressure , we know that people are like Zaradi and Fauzia wahab are sell outs , coming of this they will have more egg on their face them before.

This murderer should not see the light of day out side of prison ever again, or better would be that he closes his eyes forever and then he can be repatriated to the US , as the Americans desire.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Uh-uh. He didn't say no immunity. He said no "blanket" immunity - meaning Davis had the weaker, "consular" type. Yet even if the former FO isn't fibbing, since the circumstances make it clear that the "grave crime" of murder was NOT committed (only manslaughter at most) that would mean that even under consular immunity Davis can't be arrested while an investigation or prosecution is in progress.

Now it is you who is making 'sweeping statements' - the charges filed against Davis so far indicate 'cold blooded murder'. If you are going to cherry pick statements from the press and build a case supporting your own POV, why accuse others of 'speculating and making sweeping statements'?

I think you're right that in the U.S. if a similar situation occurred full diplomatic immunity would be extended to the offending diplomat. He might not even be kicked out of the U.S. (But if a Pakistani consular officer tried that today or tomorrow I doubt such courtesy would be extended.)

The US rules concerning crimes by diplomats (posted earlier) make clear that the US expects US LEA's to use the prescribed diplomatic identification and confirmation from the State Department before accepting diplomatic immunity, and even if immunity is established, encourages a full investigation and if necessary charges against the diplomat whose immunity the US will attempt to have waived from the accused individuals home nation.

Of course in this case it is immunity itself which is in question.

 

[The HBS Guy]

The focus now shifts to Pakistani FO/FM.

If they say that RD has diplomatic immunity. The game's over. RD heads back home.

If they say the RD doesn't have diplomatic immunity, then US shall find other ways of getting him out.

 

[Solomon2]

he was not a diplomat, he was quite clearly a trained killer, thug and agitator. you americans just happen to call these guys diplomats.

Many, many diplomats world-wide fit your description: "a trained killer, thug and agitator." By what right do you claim Pakistan deserves a pass to exclude such people that every other nation has to put up with?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Your support of crime and criminals in the face of all known facts to date merely tells me you are scape goating the reality of the situation wherein Mr. Davis, who said so from the start, has 100% Diplomatic Immunity.

Have a good evening.

Completely unnecessary. Just because many Pakistanis have a different opinion of how events have unfolded does not make them 'supporters of crime and criminals'.

Please remain civil in your discourse and stop denigrating those who disagree with your POV. As I have pointed out before, limit your comments to the events and the individuals involved in the events. You believe Davis has complete immunity and acted in self-defence against two criminals trying to rob him, that is your right. But it is not acceptable for you to malign and smear Pakistanis disagreeing with you.

Make your case and arguments as best you can, and refute the other side's arguments as best you can, but refrain from comments such as those in the above quoted post.

 

[pakdefender]

Many, many diplomats world-wide fit your description: "a trained killer, thug and agitator." By what right do you claim Pakistan deserves a pass to exclude such people that every other nation has to put up with?

if you admit that the 'diplomitc immunity' clause gives cover to 'trained killer, thug and agitator' then all the more reson that this law needs to changed and raymond davis must be prosecuted for murder

 

[Solomon2]

Here are latest facts

- during the murder investigation Raymond Davis refused to co-operate with the police , instead he tried to get up from his chair and tried to leave the room , his this behaviour shows the total disregard him and his American colleagues have with regards to the due process

Umm, no. That's exactly how I'd expect someone with diplomatic immunity to behave. He's only supposed to be in a police station of his own free will and can't be held even for questioning.

- the leaked documents show Raymond Davis has a 200,000 USD contract , which indicates that by all means this guy falls in the same category as backwater operatives

Not all diplomats are on government payrolls, they need only be contractors or even unpaid temporary personnel.

- the Americans , through their crony Zardari , have gotten then foreign minster of Pakistan Shah Mahmood Qureshi sacked , they have now gotten the Foreign Office spokesperson Abdul Basit sacked and replaced.

I think this is a problem with how Pakistanis' brains operate, always thinking that if some change happens the U.S. is behind it. Did the U.S. tell you what tie to put on this morning, too?

- The police investigation has confirmed the act committed by the American gunman was an act of cold blooded murder

This conflicts with the initial report from police on the scene - and I did not read of any factual backup for the "cold blooded murder" claim. I conclude that high-ranking police officials are covering their , trying to justify their attitude of keeping Davis locked up. That Davis should never have been arrested in the first place, or should have been released as soon as his status was confirmed, is no longer in doubt.