RAW Vs ISI

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Great.

Well done!

Good monkeys!

 

[Spring Onion]

Great.

Well done!

Good monkeys!

Yeh thats why we preffered Dehli Monkeys.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Imported to Delhi from a more exotic land?

 

[Astra]

Recall your memory & tell me since when last time you liked a thread where Pakistan have a upper hand. ????
This is when i say it hearts when your enemy is superior then you.


Regards
Wilco

You have a very good sense of humour.
It is not so easy to Judge who is superior, but ISI has failed badly in two major cases.

I Creation of Bangladesh- RAW sensed the opposition of Govt in East pakistan and the timily assault divided Pakistan into two smaller halves, which are easy to handle militarily.

II Siachen- RAW noted the purchase of huge amount of Arctic-weather gear, and alerted Indian Army, which captured Siachen.

Can you point out any such major failures by RAW, which relulted in a huge loss of territory?. Kargil was a very big intelligene failure, but our media did the best out of it by getting International Support.

ISI - Apart from doing some bomb blasts, they have not been able to go any further. And now the relults are even worse. Spending millions on Taliban, and losing it to Northern Alliance/US. And now you are fighting your own ISI created Taliban.

Still I would say that both RAW and ISI are good enough for developing countries, as we depend more on HUMITs than Technological Intelligence.

Request you to keep the discussion healthy.

Cheers.

 

[F.O.X]

Since i had decided not to answer to this thread any more, but this post have forced me to do so.

I Creation of Bangladesh- RAW sensed the opposition of Govt in East pakistan and the timily assault divided Pakistan into two smaller halves, which are easy to handle militarily.

It was more traitors then Raw, bcoz of whome we lost East Pakistan, But you know What happens happens for good, now we are happy that we dont have it.

II Siachen- RAW noted the purchase of huge amount of Arctic-weather gear, and alerted Indian Army, which captured Siachen.

this is unfortunately the indian version which more unfortunately is not true.
if we have bought the Arctic-Weather gear then our soldiers who initially fought there were not in Regular Jerssies. do some research then post your comments.
I was infact the success of ISI the he informed us about your Ideas of invading our territory, & we send our men in -50C with regular Uniform & most of initial casualities were bcoz of this.

ISI - Apart from doing some bomb blasts, they have not been able to go any further. And now the relults are even worse. Spending millions on Taliban, and losing it to Northern Alliance/US. And now you are fighting your own ISI created Taliban.

Killing inocents in not the moto of ISI but of Raw you knew it i knew it no need to explain, even if Cat kills *** in India the cat is investigated to be an possible ISI agent.

it was ISI who broke Mighty Russia into Small Pieces, if we have did it in past we are capable of doing it now.



Regards
Wilco

 

[Astra]

It was more traitors then Raw, bcoz of whome we lost East Pakistan, But you know What happens happens for good, now we are happy that we dont have it.

Traitors are created, they are not born. RAW did it, because its in our national interest to be a regional player.

this is unfortunately the indian version which more unfortunately is not true.
if we have bought the Arctic-Weather gear then our soldiers who initially fought there were not in Regular Jerssies. do some research then post your comments.
I was infact the success of ISI the he informed us about your Ideas of invading our territory, & we send our men in -50C with regular Uniform & most of initial casualities were bcoz of this..

No matter what you say, India captured siachen, its one of pakistans biggest failure after Bangladesh.

Killing inocents in not the moto of ISI but of Raw you knew it i knew it no need to explain, even if Cat kills *** in India the cat is investigated to be an possible ISI agent..

Here are some authentic links that discuss about ISI being involved in terrorist activities:

BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Pakistan spy service 'aiding Bin Laden'
Backgrounder: The ISI and Terrorism: Behind the Accusations
BBC NEWS | South Asia | West 'will fail' without Pakistan

it was ISI who broke Mighty Russia into Small Pieces, if we have did it in past we are capable of doing it now.

The world knows who did it. You assisted them by creating Taliban, which Pakistan themselves have to fight now. Does it look like a good strategy?

 

[F.O.X]

Traitors are created, they are not born. RAW did it, because its in our national interest to be a regional player.

Tnx This was what i wanter to hear. i will use it in some future time, write down that you will not even belive your own statement.

No matter what you say, india captured siachen, its one of Pakistans biggest failure after Bangladesh.

You captured Siachian in your dreams, but carry on have sweet dreams.

Here are some authentic links that discuss about ISI being involved in terrorist activities:

BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Pakistan spy service 'aiding Bin Laden'
Backgrounder: The ISI and Terrorism: Behind the Accusations
BBC NEWS | South Asia | West 'will fail' without Pakistan

Nowadays do you have even have 0.0001% chance that i will belive these stories.

I can bring you more links then this proving that Raw is the biggest terrorist Helping hand in Asia.

The world knows who did it. You assisted them by creating Taliban, which Pakistan themselves have to fight now. Does it look like a good strategy?

Yes the world knows who did it. so no discussion needed.


& Try to study something outside indian view to see the reality.


Regards
Wilco

 

[Plasma]

well i think no intellegence agency can be compared with other.
All basically are doing best on their part.
look at the scale of bad blood and human sufferings all due to the proxies arround the world.


Wilco dear dont get into this if you had seen the man is trying to get hand on something (sick).
----------
BTW on a lighter note.
-------------

ISI trained monkey caught in New Delhi.

December 20, 2007.

New Delhi: The New Delhi Police has released pictures of a monkey which it claims has been trained by the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI, to undertake missions which are difficult for human agents. New Delhi Police Chief, H.K. Gandphatrai congratulated the police on this occasion. According to police sources, the monkey Raju (name changed for security reasons) was trained for two years in a specialized training centre in the Pakistani city of Gujjar Khan before being sent accross the Line of Control.

In the last couple of years, a number of monkeys started to break into various offices of the Indian Government. Last year, a gang of monkeys were responsible for stealing classified files from the office of the Prime Minister. Earlier this year, the Deputy Mayor of Delhi was killed by a gang of monkeys. Police authorities said that they had thought the attacks were due to their Lord Hanuman being unhappy with them, but the arrest of Raju has given a whole new dimension to the cases. Authorities believe that Raju the monkey will provide them with critical leads to arrest the other members of his monkey gang.
-------------


I think chaman will be happy to know the approach of two agencies

Jana where did you get this from??

 

[chaman]

Its not possible to really compare intelligence agencies, since every intelligence agency is not made under the same conditions, or have the same objectives.

The objectives and manner of operating of intelligence agencies differ according to their nations. Some intelligence agencies have very little to do, since their country has no enemies and very little crime or corruption. Eg Scandinavian intelligence agencies. after the cold war, they have very little work. but that doesnt mean they are incapable.

Different agencies are formed for different purposes, and have different objectives. You cant compare two agencies fairly, since they may have different purposes, and also because some of their hidden agendas are not revealed to the public. Also, budget allocated to intelligence agencies are almost always higher than publicised figures, so one cant really know how efficient an intelligence agency is.

The success of an intelligence agency should be measured by the number of their objectives the agency has completed, and most of all, by how well they have kept peace in their country. also, their influence in their own nation and in enemy nations is important.

Then there's thee fact that intelligence agencies dont give info on their activities. A lot of them, like the CIA, publicise their failure and hide their successes, so as to make enemies underestimate them. The best example was when the CIA salvaged a sunken soviet golf class sub, and recieved critical info on soviet submarine tactics and codes. the project was declassified only several decades later. after all, the true strength of an intelligence agency lies in deception and secrecy. the more their enemies underestimate them, the less they will take safeguards against the agency, making it easier for the agency to carry out their operations.

In conclusion, i can say that we can only speculate whether RAW or ISI is better. Their true objectives, successes and failures will be classified for many years to come. For all we know, right now one of them might be undertaking a major operation that would destroy the other. but we wont know about it for decades. its fun to speculate, but i doubt that what we say happened or is happening is what really happened or is happening.

in my opinion, based on what i know from declassified operations, the best intelligence agency is Mossad. they have always gathered critical information about their enemies, prevented their enemies infiltrating into israeli security system successfully, prevented countless terrorist attacks, and most importantly, made sure israel always had an edge over their vastly numerically superior enemies. i doubt that israel could have won any wars without Mossad.

bloody ******* whining...

I seriously doubt RAW has balls

i imagine a couple of 50 year old browsing bbc.com for intelligence


RAW doesnt even have a brand value

some of my indian friends dont even know India have an external intelignece Agency...they were whining yeah we should create one agency like ISI..in India....

ISI has some reputation internationally as a lethal and cunning force..........

 

[su-47]

I also share your skepticism about RAW's current capabilities. However, that doesnt mean RAW wont be a powerful force in the future. All we have to do is restructure the organisation, idealogically and in physical structure.

 

[Spring Onion]

Imported to Delhi from a more exotic land?

Ahh

I dint know that you guys were worshiping something for centuries, that is imported from more exotic land.

 

[Astra]

You captured Siachian in your dreams, but carry on have sweet dreams.

The Indian army controls all of the 70-km long Siachen Glacier as well as all of its tributary glaciers as well as the three main passes of the Saltoro Ridge immediately west of the glacier, Sia La, Bilafond La, and Gyong La, thus holding onto the tactical advantage of high ground. Gyong La (Pass) itself is at 35-10-29N, 77-04-15 E; that high point is controlled by India. The Pakistanis control the glacial valley just five kilometers southwest of Gyong La. The line where Indian and Pakistani troops are presently holding onto their respective posts is being increasingly referred to as the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL).

Now tell me who is dreaming? lol

 

[Astra]

Here is some more information about failure of Pakistan to hold on to disputed territory. All this because of your "superior" ISI and their huge success.

In the 1970s and early 1980s several mountaineering expeditions applied to Pakistan to climb high peaks in the Siachen area as U.S army maps deliberately showed it on Pakistani side of the Line of Control, and Pakistan granted them. This in turn reinforced the Pakistani claim on the area, as these expeditions arrived on the glacier with a permit obtained from the Government of Pakistan. Teram Kangri I (7465 m.) and Teram Kangri II (7406 m.) were climbed in 1975 by a Japanese expedition led by H. Katayama, which approached through Pakistan via the Bilafond La.[6] Once having become aware of this and the errant US military maps, Colonel N. Kumar of the Indian Army , then commanding the Army's High-Altitude Warfare School, mounted an Army expedition to the Siachen area as a counter-exercise. In 1978 this expedition climbed Teram Kangri II, claiming it as a first ascent in a typical 'oropolitical' riposte. Unusually for the normally secretive Indian Army, the news and photographs of this expedition were published in 'The Illustrated Weekly of India', a widely-circulated popular magazine.[7]

The first public mention of a possible conflict situation in the Siachen was an abbreviated article titled "High Politics in the Karakoram" by Joydeep Sircar in The Telegraph newspaper of Calcutta in 1982[8]. The full text was printed as "Oropolitics" in the Alpine Journal, London, in 1984.[9]

India launched Operation Meghdoot (named after the divine cloud messenger in a Sanskrit play by Kalidasa) on 13 April 1984 when the Kumaon Regiment of the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force went into the glacier region. Pakistan quickly responded with troop deployments and what followed was literally a race to the top. Within a few days, the Indians were in control over most of the area, as Pakistan was beaten to most of the Saltoro Ridge high ground by about a week. The two northern passes - Sia La and Bilafond La - were quickly secured by India. In his memoirs, current Pakistani president, General Pervez Musharraf states that Pakistan lost almost 2,331 km² (900 mi&#178 of territory.[10] TIME states that the Indian advance captured nearly 1,000 mi² of territory claimed by Pakistan.[11] Since then Pakistan has launched several attempts to displace the Indian forces, but with little success. The most well known was in 1987, when an attempt was made by Pakistan to dislodge India from the area. The attack was masterminded by Pervez Musharraf (later President of Pakistan) heading a newly raised elite SSG commando unit raised with United States Special Operations Forces help in the area.[12] A special garrison with eight thousand troops was built at Khapalu. The immediate aim was to capture Bilafond La but after bitter fighting that included hand to hand combat, the Pakistanis were thrown back and the positions remained the same. The only Param Vir Chakra - India's highest gallantry award - to be awarded for combat in the Siachen area went to Naib Subedar Bana Singh (retired as Subedar Major/Honorary Captain), who in a daring daylight raid assaulted and captured a Pakistani post atop a 22,000 foot (6,700 m) peak, now named Bana Post.[13] In 1989 more than 50 Indian soldiers were killed in an operation launched by the Pakistan army in Chumik sector.[14] Further attempts to reclaim positions were launched by Pakistan in 1990, 1995, 1996 and even in early 1999, just prior to the Lahore Summit. The 1995 attack by Pakistan SSG was significant as it resulted in 40 casualties for Pakistan troops without any changes in the positions. An Indian IAF MI-17 helicopter was shot down in 1996. Prior to the 2003 cease fire, on average, one Pakistani soldier died every fourth day, while one Indian soldier died every second day.

Hope this sheds some light.

 

[tupac175]

What fools!
You ought to realize that in the first place, a secret service ought to remain secret; in which case, it should occur to you all that the less you know and hear about it the more effective it is. On that note alone, RAW scores a victory over the ISI because while you lot castigate RAW for 'never being in the news' and for 'being a fat elephant', they are silently and skillfully plotting your destruction- and doing an excellent job of it too, evidenced potently by the scarcity of 'news' imputing their culpability : recall the spate of recent bomb blasts and assassinations in your major cities and how your 'superior' ISI is still blaming the islamists! hoohaha
Ofcourse, one of you will no doubt allege that I am merely trying to find an excuse for RAW's lack of reputation. After all, Mossad and the CIA have carefully cultivated theirs and have therefore become feared to a point of admiration. But you see, that is exactly what you don't realize- that a reputation for ruthlessness is precisely in the utmost national interest of Israel- given its posture of mutually open aggression against and circumscription by numerous hostile states. Mossad's reputation for ruthlessness is as much a deterrent as it is an achievement- a deterrent to possible terror attacks by sowing the seeds of doubt and trepidation in the minds of its would be protagonists- at the stage of formulation itself . As for the CIA, while certainly adept in its organization and execution, its reputation has very often been exaggerated (as it is being done here now) and this is as much a product of the Cold-War era as it is of popular imagination manifested in hollywood flicks. That is not to say that the CIA is not good, hell no! it certainly is, but then again the need for an histrionic reputation is justified by the numerous wars America engages in and is sometimes as useful as the agency itself.
In the second place, India's sphere of influence is much larger than Pakistan's , whose strategic and intelligence capabilities, in the words of its own leaders, are primarily directed towards India. India's intelligence missions, on the other hand, encompass the entire subcontinent, most of the middle east, Afghanistan, parts of East Asia and most importantly China, a much larger and potent security challenge than Pakistan. Effectively, you are all comparing one agency, whose faculties are concentrated in a specific sphere, to another, whose capacities are straddled across many frontiers- an unfair comparison to say the least.
And finally, as one of you rightly mentioned, RAW agents often share training and intelligence with the Mossad and the KGB (and ever since the war on terrorism, with the CIA as well). Not just that, it has had considerable experience foiling Maoist plots and home-grown insurgencies (some, no doubt, sponsored by Pakistan), in addition to battling Islamic militants in Kashmir. India's satellite monitoring systems are also far more advanced than Pakistan's and have put friendly states' satellites into orbit- both for surveillance and other activities: see the recent launch of an Israeli spy satellite from a base in southern India that will provide shared information on hostile states in the vicinity. And, in more grim news for Pakistan, the RAW has also started collaborating with intelligence agencies from other countries such as Germany, Britain, France and Singapore.
I caution the Pak-praisers and the India-drubbers therefore to think twice about how they interpret information (or the lack thereof) on the RAW and the IB ( India's other intelligence agency). We are far stronger than you can ever imagine...

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

What fools!
You ought to realize that in the first place, a secret service ought to remain secret; in which case, it should occur to you all that the less you know and hear about it the more effective it is.

so you're saying that mossad or cia are not effective, moron?

On that note alone, RAW scores a victory over the ISI because while you lot castigate RAW for 'never being in the news' and for 'being a fat elephant', they are silently and skillfully plotting your destruction- and doing an excellent job of it too, evidenced potently by the scarcity of 'news' imputing their culpability : recall the spate of recent bomb blasts and assassinations in your major cities and how your 'superior' ISI is still blaming the islamists! hoohaha

whatever, ISI has been able to bleed india from all directions. last time I checked, the golden temple was blown by a tank, assam is in fire, kashmir militancy, naxalites, maoists, fake currency being pumped into the economy, mizoram, all jihadi outfits in indiaand growing, bangladesh, parliament attack following 2002 border line up, bombay blasts, dawood ibrahim, extortion, crime, etc. a large chunk of your country is not even under your writ anymore, i can't possibly understand why you're plotting our destruction.

there's so much more we don't know about, such as stealing your PSLV designs, nuclear technology from the US and your country, smuggling of technology from all over the world. these are just things that have been publicised, expect a lot more from the ISI.

if you think R&AW is behind suicide bombings and the assasination of benazir bhutto, then you're greatly mistaken. it's a bit of wishful thinking, if you ask me. R&AW has never been able to infiltrate NWFP, let alone FATA. there are only three intelligence agencies which have the human resources to infiltrate these areas, ISI, CIA, KHAD. still, even their infiltration rates are poor, resulting with the beheading of the spy.

if benazir bhutto was assasinated thanks to R&AW, you would have seen an uproar and india all over the media. it's pretty obvious the ISI was most likely behind the attack, if not the us. she was asking for trouble, always speaking against the ISI whenever she had the chance. this was made clear, when a closer analysis of the videos, revealed someone shooting her at her neck many times.

Ofcourse, one of you will no doubt allege that I am merely trying to find an excuse for RAW's lack of reputation. After all, Mossad and the CIA have carefully cultivated theirs and have therefore become feared to a point of admiration. But you see, that is exactly what you don't realize- that a reputation for ruthlessness is precisely in the utmost national interest of Israel- given its posture of mutually open aggression against and circumscription by numerous hostile states. Mossad's reputation for ruthlessness is as much a deterrent as it is an achievement- a deterrent to possible terror attacks by sowing the seeds of doubt and trepidation in the minds of its would be protagonists- at the stage of formulation itself .

the ISI is just as ruthless, and is a totally rogue network. that's why it's earned a name for itself, "a state within a state". the KGB also had immense spotlight in the media, that doesn't make them any bit as inefficient, does it?

As for the CIA, while certainly adept in its organization and execution, its reputation has very often been exaggerated (as it is being done here now) and this is as much a product of the Cold-War era as it is of popular imagination manifested in hollywood flicks. That is not to say that the CIA is not good, hell no! it certainly is, but then again the need for an histrionic reputation is justified by the numerous wars America engages in and is sometimes as useful as the agency itself.

it's reputation is exaggerated? you're a total idiot, your intelligence shows me just how mature you are. after all, this is just another india vs. pakistan thread to you, right?

In the second place, India's sphere of influence is much larger than Pakistan's , whose strategic and intelligence capabilities, in the words of its own leaders, are primarily directed towards India. India's intelligence missions, on the other hand, encompass the entire subcontinent, most of the middle east, Afghanistan, parts of East Asia and most importantly China, a much larger and potent security challenge than Pakistan. Effectively, you are all comparing one agency, whose faculties are concentrated in a specific sphere, to another, whose capacities are straddled across many frontiers- an unfair comparison to say the least.

wishful thinking on your part, again. the ISI is tied down to india, they basically control afghanistan, even right now (it's a pretty tall claim on your part, considering that you ignore the fact that the ISI has destroyed two afghan governments).

they have their tentacles spread throughout central asia (which you don't have), Russia in Chechnya (which you don't have), Europe (which you don't have), south america (yes, which you don't have), africa most north africa (which you barely have), middle east (which you wish you had), israel (yes, you can only dream), china (third country intelligence sharing technique, included with cooperation), southeast asia including malaysia, singapore, thailand (why are we even naming these places? they have no value at all).

And finally, as one of you rightly mentioned, RAW agents often share training and intelligence with the Mossad and the KGB (and ever since the war on terrorism, with the CIA as well). Not just that, it has had considerable experience foiling Maoist plots and home-grown insurgencies (some, no doubt, sponsored by Pakistan), in addition to battling Islamic militants in Kashmir.

you just found this out? R&AW has been trained by KGB, Mossad for more than 30 years now, go ahead add the CIA to the picture. it makes no difference. out country is much smaller, with less people so it's easier to control. on top of that, we have national database of 140 million people. that's far better than what you have, considering millions of people in india who don't even exist.

why do i mention this? because the more control we have over our population through technological means, the more difficult it will be for anyone to penetrate our country. besides, R&AW even after being trained by mossad and KGB, had no success in the 80's when we caught a ton of your agents. actually come to think of it, some of the most important people in pakistan are actually indian double agents who were caught by the ISI and convinced to work for us, right?

kashmir has only simmered down because musharraf offered his hand for peace. now as soon as the new govt. came in, what happened? quite a bit of your soldiers have died right? as for maoists, good luck on stopping them! i have a feeling we don't even need to do anything anymore!

India's satellite monitoring systems are also far more advanced than Pakistan's and have put friendly states' satellites into orbit- both for surveillance and other activities: see the recent launch of an Israeli spy satellite from a base in southern India that will provide shared information on hostile states in the vicinity.

a satellite will only help you spot our soldiers who possibly are preparing to attack LoC, nothing else. then again, you had a massive intelligence failure in Kargil, where were your satellites then? besides, we use chinese satellites anyway, so i don't see the big deal. soon, everyone will realize the only thing spy satellites are good for are either getting blinded or shot down.

And, in more grim news for Pakistan, the RAW has also started collaborating with intelligence agencies from other countries such as Germany, Britain, France and Singapore.

ohhh, that's scary Germany and Singapore! ISI already colloborates with other agencies, why do you seem to ignore that? why does it even matter, do you think R&AW still needs help?

I caution the Pak-praisers and the India-drubbers therefore to think twice about how they interpret information (or the lack thereof) on the RAW and the IB ( India's other intelligence agency). We are far stronger than you can ever imagine...

yeah, yeah, yeah, i've heard that a lot. get your own house in order, and we do ours. i don't even have to think about how powerful our agency is. The ISI became probably the most powerful intelligence agency in the 1980's when it brought down the Soviet war machine. you saw a massive uprising in sikh militancy, kashmir, assam, and other places in India at that time. we destroyed the afghan govt. a second time just for fun, nuclear material smuggling right under the nose of the western govt's.

do you have any idea how much control the ISI has over India? prostitution, extortion, crime, drug trafficking, counterfeiting fake currency to ruin your economy, etc. these are all just the common daily things that occur in your life, the real fun starts when you go deeper.

and then there was the BCCI. in the 80's, it amassed upto $20billion worth of assets, that's probably $100 billion worth right now. it helped fund our nuclear program, mujahideen, and was the main financial vehicle of the isi. imagine if it was still in existence right now? however, that's why western countries pushed to close it down because it would make pakistan way too powerful and would give us control over central asia and the middle east.

so please wake up from your wet dream and go clean yourself. it's wishful thinking on your part, you should realize that chanakya is not alive anymore. pakistan will and cannot fall under indian hegemony, so just swallow up your desperation and accept your humiliation.