Ranjit Singh : The Quintessential Indus Man

[Omar1984]

Sorry to bust your bubble but Urdu is essentially Hindi with some mixed Persian words used by Muslims of UP/Bihar and those places.. urdu is far closer to hindi than to persian.. also language of early mughal rulers was actually mongol language... later when they got little civilized they started speaking persian but urdu was never used by mughal rulers.. urdu is a subcontinental language only used by subjects of mughal rule.. not rulers themselves.

Urdu was brought to the subcontinent because of the Muslims. If it wasn't for the Muslims, we all would be speaking hindi. Even your bollywood uses Urdu. Ask any Iranian, Dost, Zindagi, Makaan, Aasmaan, Zameen, Zindagi, etcc are all Farsi words.

And can you indians even read Urdu:

and salwar kameez is punjabi dress.. it is there WAY before those invasions.. actually those clothes are related to Jatt culture and Jatts trace their lineage to scythians (who are now extinct but scythians were people located in central asia. ones that stayed there mixed with mongols and turks.. ones that travelled north mixed with slavic people and ones that travelled south mixed with indo-aryan people).. but even today groups from eastern european countries (especially ukraine).. central asian countries and punjabi jatts share some common stuff and types of clothes is one.. salwar kameez or kurta pajama has been there way before mughals/mongols even accepted islam..

Where is your source that Shalwar Kameez was made by Punjabi Jatts. Shalwar Kameez was originated in Afghanistan. Why do you think Afghan men always wear Shalwar Kameez (especially Pashtuns) way more than Punjabis do. Even when Karzai visits foreign countries he always wears Shalwar Kameez while your Manmohan Singh wears pant shirt. Tell an Afghan Pashtun that Shalwar Kameez was made by Punjabi Jatts lets see what their response would be lol. By the way, even your national dress Sarees originated from the Indus (present day Pakistan).

 

[Peshwa]

Dear IBRIS, This is not what i was asking for. My question was about the slavery of women by the hands of our ancestors. I am asking this for the sake of clarification, not because i am taking their side on what they MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT HAVE DONE. If they have done that(taking women hostages and slaves) then they have done it and i am not taking their side. But if they havent done it, then it is not right to make something up. And i want an authentic, reliable and not one sided proof for that.

thanks

Ahmad, past is the past, and one has to move on.....

But the slavery of women and children was a reality at least under Ahmad Shah Abdali....a Pushtun.....

I quote from Wikipedia since the only other source is Maratha history books which are obviously not neutral.....the Third Battle of Panipat....the last large battle between indegenous south asian militaries until 1947.....and the battle that changed the fate of the subcontinent.....including the onset of British colonization

"Ahmad Shah's victory left him, in the short term, the undisputed master of North India. However, his alliance quickly unravelled amidst squabbles between his generals and other princes, the increasing restlessness of his soldiers over pay, the increasing Indian heat and arrival of the news that Marathas had organised another 100,000 men in the south to avenge their loss and to rescue the captured prisoners. Before departing, he ordered the Indian chiefs, through a Royal Firman (order) (including Clive of India), to recognize Shah Alam II as Emperor. He left Delhi two months after the battle, heading for Afghanistan with his loot of 500 elephants, 1500 camels, 50,000 horses and at least about 22,000 women and children.[22]"

Battle of Panipat (1761) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Us Maratha's are proud people just as the Afghans, and I understand that you're sensitive about mudslinging....but you have to understand that back then, there were no rules of engagement.....
Im sure Indian rulers committed similar atrocities.....and Im not demonizing any one group here

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Us Maratha's are proud people just as the Afghans:

 

[Peshwa]

More substance less action icons please....

 

[Iqbal_Brar]

Urdu was brought to the subcontinent because of the Muslims. If it wasn't for the Muslims, we all would be speaking hindi. Even your bollywood uses Urdu. Ask any Iranian, Dost, Zindagi, Makaan, Aasmaan, Zameen, Zindagi, etcc are all Farsi words.

wow.. so you throw in a couple of Persian words makes your language Persianatic? LOL.. oh please.. I cant even tell the difference between urdu and hindi when people are talking.. look at Punjabi.. it is a totally different language than both urdu and hindi.. but when it comes down to those 2 languages.. urdu and hindi is like almost same language..

And can you indians even read Urdu:

So you guys learn the alif beh peh letters... and you think its a big difference? lmao.. please.. any script can be used to write a language... Punjabi is still the same Punjabi despite it using 2 different scripts.. Pakistani Punjabis write in Shahmukhi (arabic script) and Indian Punjabis write in Gurmukhi (sanskrit script)... the language is still the exact same!! just the letters used to write are different.. it is same case with urdu.. just because you write in arabic script doesn't make it a whole lot different than Hindi.. especially since a non-hindi non-urdu speaker like me can't even tell the difference between both of those languages.. u guys speak the same frikkin language!!!!!

Where is your source that Shalwar Kameez was made by Punjabi Jatts. Shalwar Kameez was originated in Afghanistan.

And whats your source it originated in Afghanistan?

Why do you think Afghan men always wear Shalwar Kameez (especially Pashtuns) way more than Punjabis do. Even when Karzai visits foreign countries he always wears Shalwar Kameez while your Manmohan Singh wears pant shirt.

Maybe Pakistani Punjabis but you will never see an Indian leader from Punjab make official visits in anything else but a Kurta pajama/salwar kameez (we only call the lady dress salwar kameez nd male dress kurta pajama so distinction there).. and thats funny.... 99% of the time Manmohan Singh wears a kurta pajama.. but he is not leader of Punjab only.. he is leader of whole India.. and kurta pajama/salwar kameez dress is only worn by people of Punjab and Haryana..

Tell an Afghan Pashtun that Shalwar Kameez was made by Punjabi Jatts lets see what their response would be lol.

Tell a Punjabi Jatt that Shalwar Kameez was made by Afghan Pashtuns lets see what their response would be lol.

Oh and did I forget the turban??? They're rocking that part of OUR dress too!!!

By the way, even your national dress Sarees originated from the Indus (present day Pakistan).

Don't know.. couldn't care less.. sure you can have the saree.. no one in Punjab wears sarees anyways.. lolll..

 

[Cisco-GUY]

also better genes (I won't associate that with Muslims, but they just happen to be Muslims).. but Turks, Afghans and especially Persians (Persians are extremely attractive and beautiful)..

otherwise all Indians would have ended up being of Dravidian stock (right now atleast 1% Indians are not of Dravidian stock - the ones you see in Bollywood )

Going by your logic, Pakistan is going to be Caucasian race and Christian/ Jew country 200 years down the road.

Just kidding, No pun intended.

 

[Omar1984]

wow.. so you throw in a couple of Persian words makes your language Persianatic? LOL.. oh please.. I cant even tell the difference between urdu and hindi when people are talking.. look at Punjabi.. it is a totally different language than both urdu and hindi.. but when it comes down to those 2 languages.. urdu and hindi is like almost same language..So you guys learn the alif beh peh letters... and you think its a big difference? lmao.. please.. any script can be used to write a language... Punjabi is still the same Punjabi despite it using 2 different scripts.. Pakistani Punjabis write in Shahmukhi (arabic script) and Indian Punjabis write in Gurmukhi (sanskrit script)... the language is still the exact same!! just the letters used to write are different.. it is same case with urdu.. just because you write in arabic script doesn't make it a whole lot different than Hindi.. especially since a non-hindi non-urdu speaker like me can't even tell the difference between both of those languages.. u guys speak the same frikkin language!!!!!

Another Indian trying to convince the world that Pakistanis and Indians are the same. We Pakistanis admit that Urdu has many Persian words, while you indians speak Urdu and claim its hindi. The real hindi has no Farsi or Arabic words at all so instead of speaking Urdu in your bollywood try pure hindi and lets see how many people will actually watch your bollywood movies then.

And yes scripts maters a lot. I can not even read your freakin hindi while you cant read my Urdu. You indians will be totally lost if one day all the signs in india were to be written in Urdu.

Thank God we write all the languages spoken in Pakistan in the same script so all Pakistanis will know how to read our languages, indians are illiterate when it comes to reading Urdu or Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi, Kashmiri, Balochi in Pakistan.

And whats your source it originated in Afghanistan?

Salwar kameez (also spelled shalwar kameez or shalwar qameez) is a traditional dress worn by both women and men in South and Central part of Asia. It is widely believe that Shalwar Kameez was originated from Afghanistan and was spread out in in neighboring countries especially in India. Salwar or shalwar are loose pajama-like trousers. The legs are wide at the top, and narrow at the ankle. The kameez is a long shirt or tunic. The side seams (known as the chaak), left open below the waist-line, give the wearer greater freedom of movement.

Salwar kameez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe Pakistani Punjabis but you will never see an Indian leader from Punjab make official visits in anything else but a Kurta pajama/salwar kameez (we only call the lady dress salwar kameez nd male dress kurta pajama so distinction there).. and thats funny.... 99% of the time Manmohan Singh wears a kurta pajama.. but he is not leader of Punjab only.. he is leader of whole India.. and kurta pajama/salwar kameez dress is only worn by people of Punjab and Haryana..Tell a Punjabi Jatt that Shalwar Kameez was made by Afghan Pashtuns lets see what their response would be lol.Oh and did I forget the turban??? They're rocking that part of OUR dress too!!! Don't know.. couldn't care less.. sure you can have the saree.. no one in Punjab wears sarees anyways.. lolll..

Manmohan Singh doesnt wear Shalwar Kameez because he knows thats not his original clothes. It was brought by Afghans into the subcontinent. Men from Pakistan and Afghanistan always wear these clothes because they are proud of their heritage and their clothing unlike indian men who like to wear tight pants showing off their skinny legs


All the good things about the subcontinent. Architecture, clothing, art, cuisine, literature, and religion was brought by the Muslims.

As I said I like nothing about hindu/sikh culture.

 

[Peshwa]

Urdu was brought to the subcontinent because of the Muslims. If it wasn't for the Muslims, we all would be speaking hindi. Even your bollywood uses Urdu. Ask any Iranian, Dost, Zindagi, Makaan, Aasmaan, Zameen, Zindagi, etcc are all Farsi words.

Sanskrit is the root of all Germanic languages.....and a person who understands Sanskrit (Indian Language) is able to comprehend German to a certain extent......

Hell even their airline "Lufthansa" is in Sanskrit:

Luft: Flying
Hansa: Swan

What does that say? Are we supposed to claim that culturally Indians and Germans are alike?.....
Borrowing a few words is called influence.....NOT derivation....

Urdu is an Indian language originating in UP/Bihar area.....the only part of your statement that has any weight is that it was majorly spoken by muslims of that region....But Muslims did not bring it to our country.....

 

[Peshwa]

Another Indian trying to convince the world that Pakistanis and Indians are the same. We Pakistanis admit that Urdu has many Persian words, while you indians speak Urdu and claim its hindi. The real hindi has no Farsi or Arabic words at all so instead of speaking Urdu in your bollywood try pure hindi and lets see how many people will actually watch your bollywood movies then.

And yes scripts maters a lot. I can not even read your freakin hindi while you cant read my Urdu. You indians will be totally lost if one day all the signs in india were to be written in Urdu.
.

So by your logic, can a urdu speaking mohajir understand Farsi?

Since the script matters a lot.....
English ,Spanish and French follow the same script.....Can one understand the other without learning the language? Or can they be considered the same language?....

Seriously....is there any point continuing your argument when you've been proven wrong on multiple fronts? Never thought I wud say this....read JinxeD Girls post.....

 

[asq]

After reading most posts I am compeled to say that in the past our history is same as history of middle east, Europe or north America. Study it u will se the similarities.

So all man used to do in those days is to conquer, loot or establish his kingdom,

french and english fought a war known as 100 years war.

so Please stop dumping on Muslims, Aryans came to India and plundered it, comparatively Muslims did not push real Indians out of their homes and to south.

Had Muslim rulers done what Euopeans did in Americas or what english did in India and in Africa, India would have been all Muslim day.

Afghan or Tajiks or uzbeck who came to India were no differant than Aryians, or europeans, so it is not fair to single out Muslims.

I am sorry for brusting the buble of some on this forum, but truth had to be told.


Read and see the similarities.

History of Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

History of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

History of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Uncanny similarities are present in all the history of the world as noted above. Enjoy, and relax, forgive and move on.

 

[sparklingway]

Urdu was brought to the subcontinent because of the Muslims. If it wasn't for the Muslims, we all would be speaking hindi. Even your bollywood uses Urdu. Ask any Iranian, Dost, Zindagi, Makaan, Aasmaan, Zameen, Zindagi, etcc are all Farsi words.

And can you indians even read Urdu:

I posted this minutes ago on another thread where the issue of language was raised:-

Before reading the next sentences, come out of any myopic and/or prejudiced mindset and evaluate objectively:-

Standardized Hindi and Urdu are very much alike, so much that their differences are not enough for linguists to classify them as entirely different languages. They are considered dialects of a common language referred to as Hindustani language. Even when they are written in different scrips (Nastaliq as opposed to Devanagari), and have differences in phonetics, they are still considered dialects of a common language by linguists.

Gopi Chand Narang, awarded Iqbal Centennary Gold Medal by the GoP and Padma Bhushan and Padma Shri by GoI for his contributions to Urdu had the following to say:-

"Associating Urdu with the Muslims in India is part of a political conspiracy against this composite language which was born out of a cultural interaction between the Hindus and the Muslims. The communalization of Urdu is part of its politicization which has occurred in the last half century. In fact, it is part of the hangover of the two nation theory which stands discredited by historical events in the subcontinent.

"Nevertheless narrow minded politicians on both sides of the border unwittingly subscribe to it. Pakistan is a nascent nation. Naturally it needs a language and a cultural core which it may call its own. The bigger problem lies in India where presently Urdu's association with the Muslim minority is exploited as a vote bank. In India, I have yet to come across a leader of a political party, left or right, who does not praise Urdu for its charm and elegance, yet these leaders are indifferent to its linguistic rights".

The language dispute only went to show the lack of objectivity among the populations, both of whom sought to dominate each other at the fall of the Mughal Empire. If Canada can adopt French and English in parallel, the lack of such an agreement in British India only highlighted the irrationality of the population.

The Urdu-Hindi struggle has forced our historians (read state historians who distort history for political purposes) to present Urdu as a symbol of Hindu-Muslim differences and somehow a factor contributing to demand for Independence. The controversy has been settled, in all practical purposes by the GoI and the widescale adoption and general understanding (read unfamiliarity with Persian/Nastaliq script) of Devanagari script has coerced Urdu scholars in India so much so, that they have adopted Devanagari for Urdu publications as well (some magazines are published this way).

PS :- I'm not commenting on any other aspect, except the point of Hindu-Urdu that you raised. Read it only in that limited context.

 

[sparklingway]

Uncanny similarities are present in all the history of the world as noted above. Enjoy, and relax, forgive and move on.

You sir, are a gentlemen and a scholar.

 

[Iqbal_Brar]

Another Indian trying to convince the world that Pakistanis and Indians are the same. We Pakistanis admit that Urdu has many Persian words, while you indians speak Urdu and claim its hindi. The real hindi has no Farsi or Arabic words at all so instead of speaking Urdu in your bollywood try pure hindi and lets see how many people will actually watch your bollywood movies then.

lolll.. and thats my point... you have to whine and cry to tell me how different urdu is... because when you speak.. you sound exactly like speaking hindi to me.. lmaoo... when we speak punjabi.. everybody KNOWS its a different language.. we don't need to go around explaining to people its a different language like you do here.. LOL..

And yes scripts maters a lot. I can not even read your freakin hindi while you cant read my Urdu. You indians will be totally lost if one day all the signs in india were to be written in Urdu.

Thank God we write all the languages spoken in Pakistan in the same script so all Pakistanis will know how to read our languages, indians are illiterate when it comes to reading Urdu or Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi, Kashmiri, Balochi in Pakistan.

we indians are already lost when we visit other states... when you visit different states the road signs are written in that states language.. so you cant even read them anyways... english is used as double language on signs to make it easier for people out of the state.. but script still has nothing to do with language... you read and write in arabic script but when it comes to understanding you can't understand sh!t all when arabic and Irani people talk... because you don't speak their language... you only look up to them.. ask any Irani and Arabi how close your language is to theirs.. they'll tell you.. loll...

Salwar kameez (also spelled shalwar kameez or shalwar qameez) is a traditional dress worn by both women and men in South and Central part of Asia. It is widely believe that Shalwar Kameez was originated from Afghanistan and was spread out in in neighboring countries especially in India. Salwar or shalwar are loose pajama-like trousers. The legs are wide at the top, and narrow at the ankle. The kameez is a long shirt or tunic. The side seams (known as the chaak), left open below the waist-line, give the wearer greater freedom of movement.

Salwar kameez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Right onn... a wiki link.. and one which doesn't even confirm but states "widely believed".. yehhh... now i should sign up for a wiki account and correct that there.. loll... if you want to post wiki links.. than always scroll down to the bottom and post the references... that page has NOTHING meaning the person who wrote it "widely believes"...

Manmohan Singh doesnt wear Shalwar Kameez because he knows thats not his original clothes. It was brought by Afghans into the subcontinent. Men from Pakistan and Afghanistan always wear these clothes because they are proud of their heritage and their clothing unlike indian men who like to wear tight pants showing off their skinny legs

cuz i already stated MMS is leader of whole India anddd he DOES wear it all the frikkin time!! butttt when it comes to your cheap shots.. i feel bad at returning the favour since you're not even Afghani and me making of this will mean me making fun of Afghanis.. and i got nothing against them.. they're good people.. so it sucks that i can't even make fun of you... lolllz.. cuz apparently you're a nobody... you cloak yourself behind Afghani and Persian culture... lolll.. so i'll leave you at itt....

All the good things about the subcontinent. Architecture, clothing, art, cuisine, literature, and religion was brought by the Muslims.

As you say sir!! But again that little thing about "Muslims".. if you really admire them than don't be afraid to label them... you're awwed by Afghani and Persian culture.... simple as that..

As I said I like nothing about hindu/sikh culture.

Aye aye brother.... its all good.. we didn't expect to generate much tourism revenue from you anyways.. lolll

 

[Omar1984]

lolll.. and thats my point... you have to whine and cry to tell me how different urdu is... because when you speak.. you sound exactly like speaking hindi to me.. lmaoo... when we speak punjabi.. everybody KNOWS its a different language.. we don't need to go around explaining to people its a different language like you do here.. LOL..

It sounds the same to you because you are indian whose living in denial trying to tell the world that Pakistanis and indians are the same but we Pakistanis rather die than be in the same category as indians.

We Pakistanis can definately tell when an Indian talks in hindi and when a Pakistani talks in urdu. We dont have the dravadian accent that you have like how your news anchors talk in india tv. You even ruin Persian words like you call zindagi "jindagi" and zindabad "jindabad" and you have words like shanti which for Pakistanis means ugly indian woman, i can go on and on with the difference on how an indian talks and how a Pakistani talks but you will still reply because you are just being yourself, an annoying indian.

you read and write in arabic script but when it comes to understanding you can't understand sh!t all when arabic and Irani people talk... because you don't speak their language... you only look up to them.. ask any Irani and Arabi how close your language is to theirs.. they'll tell you.. loll...

You can understand Urdu but when it comes to reading and writing Urdu you can't read and write sh!t all when Pakistanis read and write, that makes you indians illiterates in the Urdu language and you indians have dravadian languages like marathi and other south indian languages that most indians speak that no Pakistani can ever understand.

Every Muslim country has their own language. Turks have Turkish they also cant understand Arabic or Farsi.

Right onn... a wiki link.. and one which doesn't even confirm but states "widely believed".. yehhh... now i should sign up for a wiki account and correct that there.. loll... if you want to post wiki links.. than always scroll down to the bottom and post the references... that page has NOTHING meaning the person who wrote it "widely believes"...

Atleast I provided a source you didnt even provide a source to your fairytale. If you were educated enough you would know that Shalwar is a Farsi word meaning pants and Kameez is an Arabic word meaning shirt. No Jatt sikh ever would've thought of those words. Muslims came up with Shalwar Kameez, jatt sikhs didnt invent sh!t.

cuz i already stated MMS is leader of whole India anddd he DOES wear it all the frikkin time!! butttt when it comes to your cheap shots.. i feel bad at returning the favour since you're not even Afghani and me making of this will mean me making fun of Afghanis.. and i got nothing against them.. they're good people.. so it sucks that i can't even make fun of you... lolllz.. cuz apparently you're a nobody... you cloak yourself behind Afghani and Persian culture... lolll.. so i'll leave you at itt....

Afghani and Persian culture is much better than hindu and sikh culture I can tell you that, and you dont have to tell me about cheap shots you are a perfect example of an annoying indian who is obsessed about Pakistanis and want the whole world to think Pakistanis and indians are the same people, while we Pakistanis never wanted anything to do with indians. We Pakistanis are 180 million people we are a people of our own.

As you say sir!! But again that little thing about "Muslims".. if you really admire them than don't be afraid to label them... you're awwed by Afghani and Persian culture.... simple as that..

I dont care if the Muslim is Afghani, Persian, Arabic, Turkish, Sweedish or African I respect them and admire their culture more than bharatis.

Aye aye brother.... its all good.. we didn't expect to generate much tourism revenue from you anyways.. lolll

loll yourself you just proved to everyone in this forum that indian is another word for annoying loser who has nothing better to do than follow Pakistanis in every Pakistani forum trying to convince Pakistanis that they are same as indians while Pakistanis want nothing at all to do with indians.

 

[RobbieS]

also better genes (I won't associate that with Muslims, but they just happen to be Muslims).. but Turks, Afghans and especially Persians (Persians are extremely attractive and beautiful)..

otherwise all Indians would have ended up being of Dravidian stock (right now atleast 1% Indians are not of Dravidian stock - the ones you see in Bollywood )

So your obsession with looks continues. I guess according to you better genes = better looking/attractive (people) genes.

I wonder what it will take for you to understand that there is more to a person or a group of people than just good looks. Pretty shallow, dont you think?