Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars

[M. Sarmad]

Ignore these lazy, ignorant threads.

ignorância deliberada ....


While Rajput maybe a title and Jat an elastic label, Gujjars definitely are an ethnic group.

 

[Joe Shearer]

ignorância deliberada ....


While Rajput maybe a title and Jat an elastic label, Gujjars definitely are an ethnic group.

Come back soon, Sir, there's obviously lots to write about.

 

[Dalai Lama]

The identity crisis is palpable. I wonder if the members of this forum are an accurate representation of Pakistani society as a whole. If so, you guys are screwed for the next couple of generations at the very least.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

The identity crisis is palpable. I wonder if the members of this forum are an accurate of Pakistani society as a whole. If so, you guys are screwed for the next couple of generations at the very least.

I honestly never expected this.

After all, they were Rajputs before they were Hindus.

Is it true that they were just pagans before. The conversion to Hinduism was very violent for Rajputs.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Rajput from both sides.

Number of fake Rajputs is lot more then we think.
In Pakistan tradition of maintaining lineage is dying.I have seen people's around me who won't marry out of tribe.
But these fake Rajputs can be tracked.At village level there is a lineage custodian,who has got lineage of every person in village.

This is a VERY complex question. The Rajput is a very flexible grouping, and rather than fake, it may be proper to consider the grouping as an avenue for upward social mobility. For instance, the Rathore was a descendant of the Rastrakutas, originally, who were feared in middle India during the period of the Tripartite Rivalry (that was before bin Qasim, so before the beginning of the world); I was intrigued and deeply interested to find that one of my students, a Lambada, had started calling himself a Rathore!

There are a number of interesting ethnographic studies about Rajputs, especially about the use and spread of the name across north India, but if you wish, I will look up and send you a Facebook page with a young contributor, a Rajput himself, who puts in the most interesting notes and posts.

I honestly never expected this.


Is it true that they were just pagans before. The conversion to Hinduism was very violent for Rajputs.

Violent? What on earth do you mean? It was violent towards the Hindus, not for the Rajputs. Are you sure you know what was going on?

Indeed they are son of the soil and they die for their motherland be it India or Pakistan.

Although I deprecate the whole martial races concoction of the British, I have to agree with you on this point. Whatever their nationality, the Rajputs, Gujjars and Jats are true to their salt.

 

[Sine Nomine]

This is a VERY complex question. The Rajput is a very flexible grouping, and rather than fake, it may be proper to consider the grouping as an avenue for upward social mobility. For instance, the Rathore was a descendant of the Rastrakutas, originally, who were feared in middle India during the period of the Tripartite Rivalry (that was before bin Qasim, so before the beginning of the world); I was intrigued and deeply interested to find that one of my students, a Lambada, had started calling himself a Rathore!

There are a number of interesting ethnographic studies about Rajputs, especially about the use and spread of the name across north India, but if you wish, I will look up and send you a Facebook page with a young contributor, a Rajput himself, who puts in the most interesting notes and posts.

Indeed it is sign of Nobility,much like title of "RANA" which was title given to nobel elites in ancient times but today is being used as Caste in some areas of Pakistan.I came to know about that when one day i did witnessed taunts thrown on a Rana by elderly Chauhan,who was migrant from Ajmer Sharif,he was saying from which angle do you consider yourself Rana? That guy just replied it's my caste
Please forward me the link.

I am curious to know why Pakistanis speaking on these topics are completely unable to distinguish between Rajput, Gujjar and Jat. Do they think these are the same? It is a possibility for a certain very specific reason, but I would like to know from a knowledgeable Pakistani, rather than assume something.

To be very frank,there are Gujjars and they identify themselves as Pashtun there is huge population of Gujjars in Afghanistan and KPK,in my opinion they are another group different from Jats and Rajputs.
When it comes to being knowledgeable,i don't think anyone is more then @Kambojaric.

 

[Placemat]

Lol. Then please move along.

This thread has nothing to do with you.



What kind of laughable BS is this?





You can’t control what Pakistanis discuss with themselves on a Pakistani forum.

Based on what you said

 

[TMA]

I've been thinking recently, what do you guys think about these titles?

Gujjars, Jats and Rajputs are each pretty big groups with plenty of sub-groups among them. Many of them (e.g Chauhans) are in fact shared among all three. Not only that, but unlike other tribes in Pakistan, these ones don't denote people of a common origin. Each clan claims a different origin, all that unites them is the fact that they intermarry with each other. You even have some clans that are also sometimes considered tribes in their own right. Even in terms of occupation, Jats and Gujjars have been pretty diverse. So I really don't see a point to us using such titles.

Not only that, but if Pakistanis want to distance ourselves from Indians, wouldn't it better to just drop such names? You get plenty of Indian Jats, Rajputs and Gujjars, but you really won't find many Indians belonging to same clans of these groups as most Pakistanis. Not only that, but Hinduism is often strongly connotated with these groups.

Your thoughts?

@Muslimrenaissance @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Indus Pakistan @Samlee @AfrazulMandal @iqbal Ali @Talwar e Pakistan @Areesh @Zibago @TMA @DESERT FIGHTER @Desert Fox @waz

No need. You are what you are. So what if some Pakistanis are the same clan as some Bharatis? This is a fact. It should not be denied.
Just like some Pakistanis share the same clan with some people of Afghanistan.

These clans are Pakistani as well!
There was a time when our Founding Fathers could have chosen the Language of Iqbal as the national language but alas they did not...

What we need to do is learn the history of the Vedism of Pakistan, which is different to the Puranism of Bharat.
You know Indonesianss also have a "Hindu" history before Islam...and from what I know it does not seem to affect their identity....

 

[Sine Nomine]

@Joe Shearer send me link sir.

 

[Placemat]

There were muslim Rajputs even before the mughals came.

For example, Babur hated Raja Hasan Khan (Muslim rajput) who sided with rana sanga against him.

Hassan Khan died on the battlefield while rana sanga (a hindu) fled the battle .. but later died.

You talk about muslim rajputs marryin into mughals? However there exists no such union in history.. but most of mughals had hindu rajput mothers.. even aurangzebs.
And those hindu rajput states had mughal patronage.

And only became “independent” after the decline of Aurangzeb & his empire.. only to be ruled again by the british.

Most of these conversions happened during Mughal time.

They have no idea what they are talking about. Ultimately, it boils down to the same crap about taller, fairer and 'different'. Like the brand of tomato ketchup; they can't define how it is different, they just know that when they wake up in the morning, they are different.

Ignore these lazy, ignorant threads.



These are the only genuine records, but while Hindus have a very systematic and centralised repository, I am curious to know how it is preserved outside.

@Tea addict

While the repository in your parts are those who preserve the records in Hardwar, in the east it is Gaya and Puri, and the south has an incredibly accurate system. I know of one family, part of a sub-set of a larger grouping, that came to Mysore in around the year 1000 AD, and has an unbroken record of its own and its collateral lines up to date. The record is a public one, and may be seen by any interested person, and is updated by an authorised person with each birth in each generation - the information has to be forwarded. Unfortunately, as is all too frequent in our paternalistic system, only men's names are recorded.

Just as a curiousity, my own family's records are available both in Gaya and in Puri, and go back 30 generations.



I am curious to know why Pakistanis speaking on these topics are completely unable to distinguish between Rajput, Gujjar and Jat. Do they think these are the same? It is a possibility for a certain very specific reason, but I would like to know from a knowledgeable Pakistani, rather than assume something.



According to you, what is a community, what is a clan and what is a title?



Fascinating.

Would like to learn more about this.



I agree.

After all, they were Rajputs before they were Hindus. Their adoption of Hinduism and absorption into the Sanatan Dharma is very interesting, in ethnographic terms.



There is frankly not much connection theologically speaking between Zoroastrianism and Hinduism. Zoroastrians came to monotheism in the strictest sense when Hinduism only articulated it deep inside its theological speculations. I am also very uncertain about your statement about their marriage customs, but let's find out more.

@padamchen

Hinduism never talked about monotheism as we know it now. It is only in the A.D.s during Adi Shankaracharya time that advitya philosophy came about which itself is not monotheism but talk about one truth. Correct me if need be

 

[Chhatrapati]

What we need to do is learn the history of the Vedism of Pakistan, which is different to the Puranism of Bharat.
You know Indonesianss also have a "Hindu" history before Islam...and from what I know it does not seem to affect their identity....

Clearly you don't know the difference.

 

[TMA]

Funny thing about this lie is that only indian Hindu Rajputs follow gotra marriage tradition which is solely based on lineage and clan. It's only the Hindu Rajputs whose 300-400 years old lineage can be easily found as we preserve it in Haridwar and update it after death or birth of any member. What's more funny is that the Rajputs of Rajputana don't even consider Pakistani Rajputs as Rajputs.

Many Sikhs don't consider Pakistani Punjabis as Punjabis...it matters little to us......

Remember Islam is for all...even the Noble Brahmin....

Clearly you don't know the difference.

Would you care to educate me?

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Violent? What on earth do you mean? It was violent towards the Hindus, not for the Rajputs

What was violent towards hindus?

 

[Hamza913]

According to you, what is a community, what is a clan and what is a title?

Clans would be the sub-groups among these groups I mentioned.

Terms like Rajput just denote a community that tends to intermarry with each other. I use the term title/community to refer to them interchangeably.

What's your cast?

Gujjar.

Why would someone hide or stop using his cast, are you ashamed of it?

I'm not hiding it, I'm just opening a discussion about how necessary they are. They don't denote our lineage (that would be clans), they don't denote our occupation, they don't denote our religion, they literally mean almost nothing. A Chauhan Rajput would be more related to a Chauhan Jat/Gujjar than a Janjua Rajput.

Answer me one question what is your lineage and cast then we can proceed to have a discussion

Most of my family are Gujjars, in terms of clans we're mixed by I identify with my patrilineal one (Bara).

Identity crisis yet again, huh ??? LOL

Wth has an identity crisis got to do with any of this?

Threads like these make it clear to me that I shouldn't raise my kids abroad.

God damn you guys are confused and have a severe identity crisis. I guess not being able to integrate into the wider society in which you were raised takes its toll on your mind.

Please don't force those insecurities on Pakistanis comfortable in their heritage and their skin.

Read my original post again, because you clearly didn't understand it.

Pakistani jets rajputs are only in name. After they were conquered by mughals or decided to convert for patronage during Mughal period they inter married with Muslims from the west and hence cannot be claiming themselves to be pure blood. This is fine because there is no need to explicitly break their connections with India. They just need to stop calling themselves these because they aren't really from these clans/ castes

Nobody claims to be "pure blood", in Pakistan you identify with your paternal lineage, i.e your unbroken chain of male ancestors.

Lol @ this thread. There might be some Rajputs in the Sindh-Rajasthan border areas in Pakistan. But that's about it. Ridiculous how Pakistanis can claim to be Rajputs otherwise though.

I think it's best you keep your nose out of this.

Not a single Pakistani Rajput can prove your statement of being the real ,superior Rajputs.

It's fairly easy to prove. Pakistani Rajputs (on average) have more Eurasian blood, just like the original Rajputs.

This is done to avoid intermixing which leads to many diseases in offspringsas we can we in cousin marriage cases.

That's a different topic entirely, but I'll leave it at the fact that it clearly hasn't helped you guys much, and that most kids from cousin marriages end up OK:

http://theconversation.com/birth-defect-risk-for-children-of-first-cousins-is-overstated-15809

Thread full of inferiority complex.

No it's not lol. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean you can chuck random words at it.

I am curious to know why Pakistanis speaking on these topics are completely unable to distinguish between Rajput, Gujjar and Jat. Do they think these are the same? It is a possibility for a certain very specific reason, but I would like to know from a knowledgeable Pakistani, rather than assume something.

Because all three share many of the same clans.

While Rajput maybe a title and Jat an elastic label, Gujjars definitely are an ethnic group.

Except me and you are not ethnic Gujjars. Ethnic Gujjars are the nomads who still speak Gojri.

The identity crisis is palpable.

How so?

Instead of resorting to silly remarks, why don't you guys try and prove what I'm saying is stupid?

@Great Janjua @Max @Winchester @SorryNotSorry

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Taimur Khurram
The other day you were claiming that you were a Bara (descendant of some Sufi) and now you are a Gujjar !! First Make up your mind, dude

Tell me about your 'al'(sub caste) if you are a Gujjar