Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Ancient Rajputs worshipped only three nature elements: sun, moon, and fire.

That doesn’t sound like Hinduism to me.

Ancient sites in Pakistan are filled with pagan dieties and motifs from different places including Persian, Babylonian, Hun, Greek, and Parthian.

IVC culture being close to all these regions and the Ganges means culture and concepts passed through here. It doesn’t mean India owns our history.

 

[Hamza913]

That doesn’t sound like Hinduism to me.

It was. Hinduism is pretty broad. Kshatriya Hinduism was pretty much a war-cult.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Indians still use this word Pashupati

Your so deluded that you think just because you use the "Pashupati" in India today that Ancient Sindhi's also used it. You probably watched some Bolly flick on Mohenjo Daro, heard 'Pashupati' used and then thought "hey they used 'Pashupati' as well.

Jeez ....

Hinduism is pretty broad

This is a modern term that only gained currency under British as us understood today. Even today what exactly is Hinduidsm has not been fixed. Even Indian Supreme Court failed to give a rendering of what Hinduism is. Thus it givres free rope to catch anything and everything as Hindu, contemperorily and historically. Which is what has been done.

It would be like giving one name to all the animist practices found across all of Africa before arrival of Islam or Christianity.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Where I said they followed Hinduism but I am sure in one thing they were not following Islam either ...

@Indus Pakistan see Pashupati seal from Mohenjodaro performing Namaz ....... ... Indians still use this word Pashupati

They did not follow Islam, that does not matter to me; religions constantly shifted in the region - our ancestors have always been open to change.

The word "Pashupati" is completely unrelated to that seal, it was Marshall who claimed it was a seal depicting "Pashupati", an incarnation of the Hindu god Shiva. His claim was refuted and countered by a storm of indologists, historians, archaeologists and etc... - however, the name had already stuck.

Most scholars now support this conclusion by Gregory:

Writing in 2002, Gregory L. Possehl concluded that while it would be appropriate to recognize the figure as a deity, its association with the water buffalo, and its posture as one of ritual discipline, regarding it as a proto-Shiva would "go too far."

Deities sitting in a cross-legged position, surrounded by animals is nothing new; this is a seal from Denmark.

Are the Ancient people of Denmark now considered Hindus to you too?

Because Islam comes first. In our religion, there is no room for nationalism for anything other than the religion. We all come from Adam (peace be upon him) anyway, so these ethnic identities are pretty redundant in comparison, and we are supposed to act as one Ummah, which makes these national identities pretty silly too.

He is not one of us who calls to tribalism. He is not one of us who fights for the sake of tribalism. He is not one of us who dies following the way of tribalism.
Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 5102, Grade: Sahih

Whoever is killed under the banner of blind following, who calls to tribalism or supports tribalism, then he has died upon ignorance.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1850, Grade: Sahih

These hadith are commonly cited by Salafis in-order to prove "nationalism" is haram and we should distance ourselves from our countries.

"Tribalism" is not equivalent to every form of nationalism. Ethno-nationalism would be categorized under that, but is Pakistan an ethno-nationalist state? We are countless peoples, languages, cultures, all united under Islam.

 

[Crixus]

Where did I relate Pashupati seal with Hinduism , why are you assuming so much ... the whole thread is about the people relating themself with the non Islamic terms like Rajputs even after converting to Islam ... why they are still latching to non Islamic pagan terms ( like Rajputs )originated from the Hindu culture ... isn't it blasphemous in Islam ???

They did not follow Islam, that does not matter to me; religions constantly shifted in the region - our ancestors have always been open to change.

The word "Pashupati" is completely unrelated to that seal, it was Marshall who claimed it was a seal depicting "Pashupati", an incarnation of the Hindu god Shiva. His claim was refuted and countered by a storm of indologists, historians, archaeologists and etc... - however, the name had already stuck.

Most scholars now support this conclusion by Gregory:


Deities sitting in a cross-legged position, surrounded by animals is nothing new; this is a seal from Denmark.

Are the Ancient people of Denmark now considered Hindus to you too?





These hadith are commonly cited by Salafis in-order to prove "nationalism" is haram and we should distance ourselves from our countries.

"Tribalism" is not equivalent to every form of nationalism. Ethno-nationalism would be categorized under that, but is Pakistan an ethno-nationalist state? We are countless peoples, languages, cultures, all united under Islam.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ancient Rajputs worshipped only three nature elements: sun, moon, and fire.

That doesn’t sound like Hinduism to me.

Ancient sites in Pakistan are filled with pagan dieties and motifs from different places including Persian, Babylonian, Hun, Greek, and Parthian.

IVC culture being close to all these regions and the Ganges means culture and concepts passed through here. It doesn’t mean India owns our history.

LOL.

What do you think the Vedic pantheon represented? Starting from Dyaus Pitar through Surya, Soma, Agni? Or let's be different - Indra, or Pawan, or Ushas? Or old man Varun/Ouranos/Uranus?

They did not follow Islam, that does not matter to me; religions constantly shifted in the region - our ancestors have always been open to change.

The word "Pashupati" is completely unrelated to that seal, it was Marshall who claimed it was a seal depicting "Pashupati", an incarnation of the Hindu god Shiva. His claim was refuted and countered by a storm of indologists, historians, archaeologists and etc... - however, the name had already stuck.

Most scholars now support this conclusion by Gregory:


Deities sitting in a cross-legged position, surrounded by animals is nothing new; this is a seal from Denmark.

Are the Ancient people of Denmark now considered Hindus to you too?





These hadith are commonly cited by Salafis in-order to prove "nationalism" is haram and we should distance ourselves from our countries.

"Tribalism" is not equivalent to every form of nationalism. Ethno-nationalism would be categorized under that, but is Pakistan an ethno-nationalist state? We are countless peoples, languages, cultures, all united under Islam.

Just curiousity: do you actually have any notion about the Germanic pre-Christian Gods? Or the Celtic Gods? You do know about the Latins and the Greeks, of course?

 

[Hamza913]

These hadith are commonly cited by Salafis in-order to prove "nationalism" is haram and we should distance ourselves from our countries.

Because it is lol. They're (or should I say we're) right.

"Tribalism" is not equivalent to every form of nationalism.

It's equivalent to every form of nationalism that divides Muslims.

is Pakistan an ethno-nationalist state? We are countless peoples, languages, cultures, all united under Islam.

Exactly, hence why any logical Pakistani patriot would be Muslim first, and view Pakistan as just a stepping-stone to the global unified Muslim nation.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

This is a modern term that only gained currency under British as us understood today. Even today what exactly is Hinduidsm has not been fixed. Even Indian Supreme Court failed to give a rendering of what Hinduism is. Thus it givres free rope to catch anything and everything as Hindu, contemperorily and historically. Which is what has been done.

It would be like giving one name to all the animist practices found across all of Africa before arrival of Islam or Christianity.

Exactly my point also.

I once asked a University Religions professor specializing in Eastern faiths about what is the definition of Hinduism. The answer I got was interesting.

Hinduism is worship of 360+ gods, or worship of only 3, or just one god, but also no god at all. All the above would be qualified as Hindu although their concept of god is radically different.

Then the answer came.

Hinduism is a person from the Indian subcontinent who is neither Muslim nor Christian.

Honestly, I was a bit surprised by this answer. The definition of Hinduism is so vague, that before the codification of Hinduism as a faith, it is absolutely impossible to say what is Hinduism and what is not. It is all arbitrary.

 

[Crixus]

What about Indian Buddhist, Jains , Sikhs ,Jews , Zoratrians and Ahamadis

what we call them Hindus ????

Exactly my point also.

I once asked a University Religions professor specializing in Eastern faiths about what is the definition of Hinduism. The answer I got was interesting.

Hinduism is worship of 360+ gods, or worship of only 3, or just one god, but also no god at all. All the above would be qualified as Hindu although their concept of god is radically different.

Then the answer came.

Hinduism is a person from the Indian subcontinent who is neither Muslim nor Christian.

Honestly, I was a bit surprised by this answer. The definition of Hinduism is so vague, that before the codification of Hinduism as a faith, it is absolutely impossible to say what is Hinduism and what is not. It is all arbitrary.

 

[Yankee-stani]

The fact that the IVC is not taught to Pakistanis at a young age is a travesty by the Government of Pakistan and the backwards or darkness trend that has been in our nation since the last 50 years all cause the politicians and moulvis never cared to create a coherent identity for our people they used sectarian warfare, used regional tensions between Pasthuns,Balochis, Punjabis, Sindhis,Gilgitis, and other groups, the IVC and late Islamic rulers could have formed a basis of our identity shame on YOU THE LEADERS OF PAKISTAN For letting our history be stolen by Gangas who bathe in polluted waters and steal our rightful history


Honestly, I was a bit surprised by this answer. The definition of Hinduism is so vague, that before the codification of Hinduism as a faith, it is absolutely impossible to say what is Hinduism and what is not. It is all arbitrary.[/QUOTE]

To be fair most religions are universal in nature only difference is Islam is the true monolithic faith left while other Aberhamic religions have gone astray

Ancient Rajputs worshipped only three nature elements: sun, moon, and fire.

That doesn’t sound like Hinduism to me.

Ancient sites in Pakistan are filled with pagan dieties and motifs from different places including Persian, Babylonian, Hun, Greek, and Parthian.

IVC culture being close to all these regions and the Ganges means culture and concepts passed through here. It doesn’t mean India owns our history.

Hmm Intresting looks like our Rajput ancestors practiced a form of Zoroastrianism

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What about Indian Buddhist, Jains , Sikhs ,Jews , Zoratrians and Ahamadis

what we call them Hindus ????

It's interesting you say that, because a few years ago there were 2 or 3 very active Indian members on this forum that argued just that - that Hinduism was a 'very loose definition' of a faith that in fact encompassed all those who traditionally call themselves 'Hindu, Buddhist, Jain's, Sikhs etc'.

They seemed to define 'Hinduism' as more of a 'cultural/civilization' ethos than a religious one, thereby, at times, also arguing that South Asian Muslims, Christians and Jews were also 'Hindus', according to this 'contemporary definition of Hinduism' they were pushing.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Exactly my point also.

I once asked a University Religions professor specializing in Eastern faiths about what is the definition of Hinduism. The answer I got was interesting.

Hinduism is worship of 360+ gods, or worship of only 3, or just one god, but also no god at all. All the above would be qualified as Hindu although their concept of god is radically different.

Then the answer came.

Hinduism is a person from the Indian subcontinent who is neither Muslim nor Christian.

Honestly, I was a bit surprised by this answer. The definition of Hinduism is so vague, that before the codification of Hinduism as a faith, it is absolutely impossible to say what is Hinduism and what is not. It is all arbitrary.

The Indian Supreme Court could not define what a hindu is today but these guys see shadow of shadows from 5,000 years ago IVC and shout "Hindoo there".

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

To all our Punjab-hating, (self claimed) Pakistani posters (OP included): please stop posting such useless and stupid threads and comments (using multiple ids) ... We should give up identifying ourselves with our tribes and castes to distance ourselves from the Indians? ... Okay, but then the Pashtuns should also stop identifying themselves with their tribes and clans to distance themselves from the Afghanis ... And the Baloch should also do the same to distance themselves from Iranians... Only a class A idiot could have come up with such an idea ... !!

Insecurity, identity crisis and obsession with Persian and arabs
we should ask our army chief to stop calling themselves Bajwa( jats), Janjua(Rajputs) etc to distance themselves from Indians.. they should find some alternative Persian or arabic surname

Where did I relate Pashupati seal with Hinduism , why are you assuming so much ... the whole thread is about the people relating themself with the non Islamic terms like Rajputs even after converting to Islam ... why they are still latching to non Islamic pagan terms ( like Rajputs )originated from the Hindu culture ... isn't it blasphemous in Islam ???

It seem you have close links with arabs. They were idol worshipper before converting into Islam and if your Hinduvata would have looked at those 360 idols in Mecca then you would have probably linked them with Hinduism as well

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

These hadith are commonly cited by Salafis in-order to prove "nationalism" is haram and we should distance ourselves from our countries.

"Tribalism" is not equivalent to every form of nationalism. Ethno-nationalism would be categorized under that, but is Pakistan an ethno-nationalist state? We are countless peoples, languages, cultures, all united under Islam.

The term used in this hadith is Asabiyyah. Some people translate it in different ways.

Sunnis and Salafis have radically different ideas of what that means.

 

[Peshwa]

Even Indian Supreme Court failed to give a rendering of what Hinduism is.
.

It is not the job of the Supreme Court to define the parameters/understanding of Hinduism. Hinduism is not a law (interpretation of which is the job of the Supreme Court and it’s judges.). So not sure what this line has to do with your argument or supports in it any manner.