RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[Viper0011.]

yes if a upgraded mig21 bison with Israeli jammer stand a chance against a f15 why wouldn't f16blk 52 will not have a chance against rafale,f15 or f35 ? it certainly will..but only a slim chance.

Good lord. The Indian bs. It's amazing what a 100 million people connected to internet can do. The ultimate propaganda machine. It's been two days and EVERY single Indian member's put something to tell me that the mighty Rafale is the God's gift to India and it'll destroy the F-16 like flys falling off the sky. BUT no ONE has given me what I've asked for......a COUPLE OF CREDIBLE SOURCES that, based on the ACTUAL experience tell me that Rafale is the ultimate weapon and hands down, there is no comparison between the F-16 B52's and the mighty Rafale.
Or may be a report of USAF's one of the F-16 squadrons that told their superiors PLEASE upgrade ALL F-16's to Block 60 and 70 as we got roasted by the Rafale!!! NOT ONE credible source has been provided after about 50 pages of crap written on this topic!!!
So instead of going in circles releasing bubbles from as*ses....try to provide me with two credible third party resources that have done such assessments. Please!!!! And I promise, I will NOT challenge your comments once you provide credible, verifiable third party assessment.

Or......quit projecting the 'may be's' and the 'wana bees'. When some verifiable third party does these assessments, we'll find out. So you guys should stop telling the world. You guys have done more marketing for the Rafale then the French themselves lol

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Good lord. The Indian bs. It's amazing what a 100 million people connected to internet can do. The ultimate propaganda machine. It's been two days and EVERY single Indian member's put something to tell me that the mighty Rafale is the God's gift to India and it'll destroy the F-16 like flys falling off the sky. BUT no ONE has given me what I've asked for......a COUPLE OF CREDIBLE SOURCES that, based on the ACTUAL experience tell me that Rafale is the ultimate weapon and hands down, there is no comparison between the F-16 B52's and the mighty Rafale.
Or may be a report of USAF's one of the F-16 squadrons that told their superiors PLEASE upgrade ALL F-16's to Block 60 and 70 as we got roasted by the Rafale!!! NOT ONE credible source has been provided after about 50 pages of crap written on this topic!!!
So instead of going in circles releasing bubbles from as*ses....try to provide me with two credible third party resources that have done such assessments. Please!!!! And I promise, I will NOT challenge your comments once you provide credible, verifiable third party assessment.

Or......quit projecting the 'may be's' and the 'wana bees'. When some verifiable third party does these assessments, we'll find out. So you guys should stop telling the world. You guys have done more marketing for the Rafale then the French themselves lol

which part of reply was bs for you ?

I actually admitted that if even a mig 21 with Israeli jammer was cable to perform well against a USAF f15 in the WVR exercise then why not a f16 52 have a chance against rafale ? the generation / technology gap is even smaller here. do you get that ?

Actually everybody else also was saying the same thing, if you look at the core of their argument " f16blk 52 is no match for rafale/eurofighter etc " but some things are obvious in combat/ air combat " every machine stands a chance how ever obsolete it is " but often we don't say that.so if tomorrow somebody says "mig 21 doesn't stand a chance against f22/f35 and it's obsolete "then should I jump in and say " hey every machine stands a chance " and you are wrong ? or should I ask for proof/ data/study report in support of his claim ? wouldn't that look stupid ?

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

??????? Have you read all my posts? I just responded to one and asked the SPECTRA and Meteor comparison is better with F-16 B60 and B70 as it may be superior to "AS IS" version of the F-16 B52. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that your mighty Rafale will be having a 100% kill against the F-16's B52's and they'll be dropping from the sky like a fly. So be realistic with your argument here. Now that I've satisfied your ego and said that the F-16 B52 (AS IS) may be a bit less advanced to SPECTRA and Meteor.........allow me to understand more. Give me a couple of credible defense analysts, like JANE or someone else who says this.
Look, the defense industry is one of the largest, most expensive and most important industries. It's like like going to Walmart and buying an F-16 or Rafale for you....these are not cookies or cakes. These are VERY sensitive defense articles that save nations in the case of a war. So casually saying something like a Fanboy or then backing it up are two different things.
Juts like ALL defense experts agree about F-22 being the ultimate air superiority platform, some should ALSO agree on Rafale being superior to everything on the planet but F-22 and F-35 right? That's ALL I am asking for.....give me two credible sources.

Also, active cancellation means nothing, in fact EFT has FLIR's that it used to lock onto the F-22 in close combat (whether the F-22 will EVER come to that distance, is a whole different case). So similarly, FLIR's can be used for active cancellation. I know of about 4 other technologies that can be made available in the shape of an external POD that can do the work. Also, activr cancellation is a very similar concept to the DRFM, only a bit advanced in capability. But nothing that can't be purchased separately and installed. Also, if the F-16's use AWACS AESA, (which will be the case for Pakistan more than likely), then the capability takes a punch in case of Rafale. As far as Meteor is concerned....When AMRAAR E and F are available, the D version will go to export. It HAS TO. As the US allys are facing the longer range R77's and Meteors of the world. So.....the Meteor deal will even out within the next two three years. You'd have just started to get Rafales by then.
Back to what I am asking, instead of discrediting a proven platform like the F-16 B 52....please share some insight with us established by a credible source that tells me that the Rafale will overwhelm the F-16 B52 in every case and will just dominate everything. I'd like to see it. Once someone does that, I don't have a reason to continue on questioning your knowledge. Thanks,

Here is a leaked evaluation report Swiss AF when they compared Rafale, EFT, and Gripen. They are a more reliable source than Jane's. Only IAF has compared F16 with Rafale till date, and we know their results; anyways here is the link.

Swiss Air Force Confidential Report on the Evaluation of the Eurofighter, the Gripen NG, and the Rafale

Secondly, I am not saying Rafale will beat F16 blk 52 each and every time. But if it does that 90-95% of times, I will be more than happy. About EFT capable of matching SPECTRA and Meteor being even out in a few years, that is just speculation on your part, not something on which you can bank, if it happens, we will see to that. Btw, EFT tranche will now be delayed significantly given that they failed to get the Indian order, probably EFT won't get tranche 3 upgrades before 2018.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Off course UK was going to order Meteor, she is part owner of the MBDA consortium so it was natural they were going to order it. The only question is, how much money has been sunk into Meteor and how much testing is the missile going to be put through? The AMRAAM has been fired against retired aircraft that have been turned into drones that were spitting out flares and manoeuvring aggressively. Does MBDA has enough funds to engage in testing like this? I don't know, only time will tell.



I don't know much about the J10B's but JF17's have been put through the grind by PAF. They regularly are fielded against the F16's and engaged in mock combats. JF17 two years ago completed 10 000 sorties and has conducted bombing runs in the FATAville. I never said that Rafale is not proven, its a very good and a potent machine but not invincible as you Indians make it out to be. As far as the capabilities of the USAF is concerned, please refrain from trolling as every independent analyst would agree that USAF is the best trained airforce in the world. The amount of training and the level of hardware they possess is simply unmatched. While the world is trying to field an aircraft rival to the F22, the USAF has been operating that for more than a decade.



I have my doubts over this. There is no way the French will give you all the access to their proprietary information. Unless the Indians pay a royalty or some method of payment is setup, i have my doubts if the French will give you the entire TOT. The French spent far more on their technology than what the IAF is paying them.



Pakistan is the largest operator of Mirage because she was an international pariah during the 90's and Mirages were the easiest to acquire. If it were upto the PAF, she would have her entire fleet equipped of F16's and American hardware. American hardware is indeed the best in the world, because at the end of the day it all comes down to money. The amount of revenue produced by Boeing and Lockheed Martin is more than the entire defence budget of India.

Since you agree that only time will tell about capabilities of Meteor and we know that UK will replace AIM120 with meteor, this discussion is over by default.

About J10 & JF17 being put to grind, you are again talking as if Rafale hasn't gone through rigourous testing. In addition to that, they have participated in export competitions around the world and seen two wars, that is as proven as an aircraft can get. Yes, F22 is a tech pinnacle, but F16 Blk 52 isn't. Just because US built F22 doesn't mean everything that comes from their stable will be unreachable by the rest of world even after 2-3 decades of entering service.

French may or may not give us full ToT, I mentioned that only as a worst case scenario. Rafale program is back on track after winning the Indian order, unlike US F35 and EU EFT. It will continue to have smooth ride.

P.S: It is interesting to see times change of PDF, about an year back when US pounded 24 pakistani soldiers mercilessly, think tanks on PDF were preparing for a war with USA. The superior US weapons were useless at that time as supposedly there was a video on the internet showing F22 can be downed by a F16. People were dreaming about JF17 blk 2 which was supposed to come up with a new engine and AESA radar, Sd10 was supposed to be better than AIM120, the think tanks were leading the charge, adding more features in every new post. I remember one particular post by your friend Orangzaib where he said that J10B will be superior to Rafale simply because it was developed a decade after Rafale.

One year later, Jf17 blk 2 is now supposed to be a dud with only a IFR addition, J10B is significantly delayed and might not be brought, and it has dawned upon people that F16 blk 52 will be their frontline aircraft till 2020. So, American weapons are superior once again, it all comes to money finally (although it didn't come down to it one year back). Changing times. Anyways, I am signing off since I had enough fun for once. Thanks for making me laugh.

 

[Viper0011.]

the-Gripen-NG-and-the-Rafale]Swiss Air Force Confidential Report on the Evaluation of the Eurofighter, the Gripen NG, and the Rafale[/url]

Flawed argument bro. The report doesn't have F-16 comparison. Specifically Block 52 vs. the Rafale. That is what I've been asking for. If the IAF has done that, I think they should've published it if everything they found and wanted was entirely accurate?? I mean, beyond the kick backs and gov't to gov't deals....if the assessment had meat in it...it should've been published so the world knew and air forces like the USAF would either acknowledge it accuracy or come back with their version of it so you'll have more accurate results from multiple sources.

Secondly, I am not saying Rafale will beat F16 blk 52 each and every time. But if it does that 90-95% of times, I will be more than happy.

Second, you are contradicting yourself in your sentence from the beginning to the end. On one hand, you are saying that you don't think Rafale will beat F-16 every time....but in the very next line you are implying that the probability of which is like 90-95% which is pretty much Rafale overwhelming the F-16 in EVERY scenario with 5% margin of error(which is usually the failure to launch missiles, engines, etc) so in your opinion it is 100% that the Rafale would damage the F-16 lol. I was even against the 60% probability of that. But its funny. I am done talking about it. Again, the French (manufacturer) don't have this strong of a belief in their jet but the Indians do lol. Love it.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Flawed argument bro. The report doesn't have F-16 comparison. Specifically Block 52 vs. the Rafale. That is what I've been asking for. If the IAF has done that, I think they should've published it if everything they found and wanted was entirely accurate?? I mean, beyond the kick backs and gov't to gov't deals....if the assessment had meat in it...it should've been published so the world knew and air forces like the USAF would either acknowledge it accuracy or come back with their version of it so you'll have more accurate results from multiple sources.



Second, you are contradicting yourself in your sentence from the beginning to the end. On one hand, you are saying that you don't think Rafale will beat F-16 every time....but in the very next line you are implying that the probability of which is like 90-95% which is pretty much Rafale overwhelming the F-16 in EVERY scenario with 5% margin of error(which is usually the failure to launch missiles, engines, etc) so in your opinion it is 100% that the Rafale would damage the F-16 lol. I was even against the 60% probability of that. But its funny. I am done talking about it. Again, the French (manufacturer) don't have this strong of a belief in their jet but the Indians do lol. Love it.

Actually IAF already chose Rafale over F16 blk 70(or was it Blk 60, who cares?) Oh yes, the kickbacks. I love people who say IAF was pressurized into choosing Rafale. Obviously French are the next Darth Vader, otherwise who would have the ability to pressurize the country who rejected two offerings from the mighty USA and another from Russia who export us 70% of our defence equipment (or was it 80%). Secondly IAF is not liable to publish the results of their evaluation just for satisfying the ego of trolls like you (or USAF for that matter), no professional air force in the world does that.

Again, no one cares if you are with or against something, as I said, F16 will remain to be pakistan's frontline fighter till 2020, obviously you can't accept that Rafale is better than F16 or you won't be able to get out of bed daily. Anyways, I loved having discussion with you, live long and prosper.

 

[Storm Force]

IF ORANGZEIB you are trying to tell us that F16/52 has a 50/50 CHANCE against RAFALE or indeed TYPHOON then clearly YOU ARE WRONG.

and further more i have posted links from F16 NET and strategy page confirming this same conclusion.

YOU GO AROUND IN CIRCLES asking for proof but inferior radar, RCS, avionics, TWR means F16.52 will be 2nd best to rafale in most occasions/ TECHNOLOGY WINS everytime.

ON THE OTHER HAND

IF you saying F16/52 as a 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 chance to succesfully take in F16/52 then you are correct . THAT scenario can happen by elements of surprise. force multipliers, ambush/ tactics etc.

BUT ON THAT BASIS the same applies to any fighter as mentioned by another poster

IE a F16/52 can be beaten by a MIG21 BISON, MIRAGE2000, MIG29SMT/K and certainly by a SU30MKI

 

[Viper0011.]

IF ORANGZEIB you are trying to tell us that F16/52 has a 50/50 CHANCE against RAFALE or indeed TYPHOON then clearly YOU ARE WRONG.
and further more i have posted links from F16 NET and strategy page confirming this same conclusion.

Instead of keep repeating the script that I am wrong, tell me 'HOW' I am wrong. I actually would like to see that. Just a couple of credible defense related organization's assessing the F-16 B52 and Rafale and mentioning ' Rafale is CLEARLY the winner over an F-16 B52 in any combat scenario'. I really don't care what you say or think. I am JUST wanting proofs dude. Just some 'credible' 'verifiable' sources. The F-16.net link you sent me, had no direct comparison. In fact the comparison was between Mirage 2k and Rafale. Had NOTHING to do with the F-16's.....? So...credible, verifiable source. There has to be SOMEONE other than India and France out there who'd have done this analysis right (if its really true)??

Actually IAF already chose Rafale over F16 blk 70(or was it Blk 60, who cares?) Oh yes, the kickbacks. I love people who say IAF was pressurized into choosing Rafale.

Again, no one cares if you are with or against something, as I said, F16 will remain to be pakistan's frontline fighter till 2020, obviously you can't accept that Rafale is better than F16 or you won't be able to get out of bed daily. Anyways, I loved having discussion with you, live long and prosper.

Rafale was chosen over the F-16 B70 because of the fear of sanctions. Sanctions on offensive defense articles can wreak havoc on a country. You guys have learned that from Pakistan. That's why you'd love to buy P8I's and C-130's but not the F-16's or the F-18's, etc. Kick backs and taking care of clients are a part of these big deals. Nothing unnatural about it.
As far as Pakistan having F-16's or not having F-16's.....isn't my concern nor do I care. I have ONE question that NONE of your countrymen can answer straightforward. Give me a couple of credible or verifiable sources that openly say that their assessment is that Rafale is hands down better than F-16 B52 in all combat scenarios. And that it'll overwhelm and destroy F-16's 80 or 90% of the time (you guys are going to 95% )? So please answer with a couple of credible, respectable and verifiable sources and we'll be done with this conversation. Thank you.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Rafale was chosen over the F-16 B70 because of the fear of sanctions. Sanctions on offensive defense articles can wreak havoc on a country. You guys have learned that from Pakistan. That's why you'd love to buy P8I's and C-130's but not the F-16's or the F-18's, etc. Kick backs and taking care of clients are a part of these big deals. Nothing unnatural about it.
As far as Pakistan having F-16's or not having F-16's.....isn't my concern nor do I care. I have ONE question that NONE of your countrymen can answer straightforward. Give me a couple of credible or verifiable sources that openly say that their assessment is that Rafale is hands down better than F-16 B52 in all combat scenarios. And that it'll overwhelm and destroy F-16's 80 or 90% of the time (you guys are going to 95% )? So please answer with a couple of credible, respectable and verifiable sources and we'll be done with this conversation. Thank you.

Please don't try to be an expert and tell us why we chose Rafale over F16. We know very well why we did it, we don't want the opinion of a self proclaimed expert like you.

If you weren't concerned about pakistan having F16s, you would't waste so much of time lying about the capabilities of F16.

Thirdly, I have already said that no direct comparison has ever been done between Rafale and F16 blk 52. So I can't give you the source you ask for. But Rafale has beaten even better aircraft such as F16 blk 70, EFT, Gripen NG, etc. It is for you to decide whether you want to accept those results or not.

However credible sources do exist that will prove that compared to blk 52, Rafale has:
1. better radar
2. better ECM capabilities
3. better clean TWR
4. Better weapon combo
5. more payload
6. higher range
7. Lesser RCS(as alleged by many sources)
8. Is dual engined

All the important metrics of an aircraft

But obviously all that means nothing to you. So I have decided that I have nothing left to prove to you. You can't continue to live inside your imaginary world. It is good for us if our adversary is delusional. This discussion is over from my side.

PS: No credible sources saying that F22 is better than Mig 21 either. Just a food for thought.

 

[KS]

@AURAngazeb - AFAIK IAF requirements demanded that the fighter be twin enginned in keeping in line with IAF combat doctrine. I dont understand why the F-16 was even included in the race. That PAF was using the same thing for well over 3 decades was another matter.

 

[Storm Force]

PAF F16S FLYING for 3 decades.

THEY MUST BE BATTERED AIRFRAMES/ENGINES. Cant see them lassting too much longer

 

[Viper0011.]

PAF F16S FLYING for 3 decades.

THEY MUST BE BATTERED AIRFRAMES/ENGINES. Cant see them lassting too much longer

You guys KEEP taking this personal and getting defensive or involve the PAF into this. It's got nothing to do with any of it. After four days and many pages worth of crap written on this topic......my questions remains unanswered.

I have ONE question that NONE of your countrymen can answer straightforward. Give me a couple of credible or verifiable sources that openly say that their assessment is that Rafale is hands down better than F-16 B52 in all combat scenarios. And that it'll overwhelm and destroy F-16's 80 or 90% of the time (you guys are going to 95% )? So please answer with a couple of credible, respectable and verifiable sources and we'll be done with this conversation. Thank you.

 

[Storm Force]

Orangzeib

NOBODY NEEDS TO PROVE ANYTHING TO YOU OR ANYBODY.

You keep your previous F16/52 (all 18 of them)

WE INDIANS will look forward to our 126 RAFALE F3 complete with RBE2 AESA radar & meteore ramjet missles. no sanctions and TOT for license production.

ITS GOOD TO HAVE DEEP POCKETS allows you (the indians) to PICK AND CHOOSE wat they want carefully.

 

[danger007]

Instead of keep repeating the script that I am wrong, tell me 'HOW' I am wrong. I actually would like to see that. Just a couple of credible defense related organization's assessing the F-16 B52 and Rafale and mentioning ' Rafale is CLEARLY the winner over an F-16 B52 in any combat scenario'. I really don't care what you say or think. I am JUST wanting proofs dude. Just some 'credible' 'verifiable' sources. The F-16.net link you sent me, had no direct comparison. In fact the comparison was between Mirage 2k and Rafale. Had NOTHING to do with the F-16's.....? So...credible, verifiable source. There has to be SOMEONE other than India and France out there who'd have done this analysis right (if its really true)??



Rafale was chosen over the F-16 B70 because of the fear of sanctions. Sanctions on offensive defense articles can wreak havoc on a country. You guys have learned that from Pakistan. That's why you'd love to buy P8I's and C-130's but not the F-16's or the F-18's, etc. Kick backs and taking care of clients are a part of these big deals. Nothing unnatural about it.
As far as Pakistan having F-16's or not having F-16's.....isn't my concern nor do I care. I have ONE question that NONE of your countrymen can answer straightforward. Give me a couple of credible or verifiable sources that openly say that their assessment is that Rafale is hands down better than F-16 B52 in all combat scenarios. And that it'll overwhelm and destroy F-16's 80 or 90% of the time (you guys are going to 95% )? So please answer with a couple of credible, respectable and verifiable sources and we'll be done with this conversation. Thank you.

Not completely true, of course there are plenty strings attached along with F-16IN... and the F-16's upgraded to maximum extent... while the Rafale is new wrestler in the arena with similar or more power....... and the IAF evaluated F-16IN they didn't rejected without evaluation.... IAF Evaluated more advanced version of F-16 and then they choose best possible opponent among them... If you want to say F-16blk 52 is advanced than F-16IN which is proposed for India... then it is fine no problem... If you want to say F-16 block 52 offers more capabilities.....good for you.. take care

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

I think He he is just trolling us..otherwise is it so hard to make an educated guess that blk52 has only a slim chance against rafale ??