RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[Viper0011.]

Only one line response --
PAF dont buy 120D variant, they buy AIM120C from USA>

You guys are missing my point. I've ALREADY said it in my posts above (the the one you responded to) that with SPECTRA and Meteor, the F-16 B52 isn't the right comparison, compare with F-16 B60 and B70 as SPECTRA and Meteor make it a superior plane in some cases. But this isn't mean that the F-16 B52 will be dropping like flys.
So please, focus on what I am asking and could someone please answer me instead of making these grandiose statements? Or at least back it up with some credible military source??

 

[Viper0011.]

SPECTRA features active cancellation for evading the incoming missile under guidance from launching aircraft's radar, which should make the launching aircraft/AWACS incapable of guiding the missile. Superiority of SPECTRA was one of the reasons french went for Rafale instead of Mirages. I would love to know more about F16's ECM from you. Saying that american manufacturers already considered Rafale is a lame argument. Blk 52 is an older aircraft, and F16 is even older. Obviously US manufacturers should have thought about countering Rafale, but not with Blk 52.

Another thing, Meteor is also superior to AIM120C5, it is supposed to replace AIM120 on EFT.

About you declining to accept superiority of Rafale without a credible proof, it is same as saying that there is no credible proof that F22 is superior to Mig 21, so F22 is not superior to Mig 21. That logic is also lame.

??????? Have you read all my posts? I just responded to one and asked the SPECTRA and Meteor comparison is better with F-16 B60 and B70 as it may be superior to "AS IS" version of the F-16 B52. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that your mighty Rafale will be having a 100% kill against the F-16's B52's and they'll be dropping from the sky like a fly. So be realistic with your argument here. Now that I've satisfied your ego and said that the F-16 B52 (AS IS) may be a bit less advanced to SPECTRA and Meteor.........allow me to understand more. Give me a couple of credible defense analysts, like JANE or someone else who says this.
Look, the defense industry is one of the largest, most expensive and most important industries. It's like like going to Walmart and buying an F-16 or Rafale for you....these are not cookies or cakes. These are VERY sensitive defense articles that save nations in the case of a war. So casually saying something like a Fanboy or then backing it up are two different things.
Juts like ALL defense experts agree about F-22 being the ultimate air superiority platform, some should ALSO agree on Rafale being superior to everything on the planet but F-22 and F-35 right? That's ALL I am asking for.....give me two credible sources.

Also, active cancellation means nothing, in fact EFT has FLIR's that it used to lock onto the F-22 in close combat (whether the F-22 will EVER come to that distance, is a whole different case). So similarly, FLIR's can be used for active cancellation. I know of about 4 other technologies that can be made available in the shape of an external POD that can do the work. Also, activr cancellation is a very similar concept to the DRFM, only a bit advanced in capability. But nothing that can't be purchased separately and installed. Also, if the F-16's use AWACS AESA, (which will be the case for Pakistan more than likely), then the capability takes a punch in case of Rafale. As far as Meteor is concerned....When AMRAAR E and F are available, the D version will go to export. It HAS TO. As the US allys are facing the longer range R77's and Meteors of the world. So.....the Meteor deal will even out within the next two three years. You'd have just started to get Rafales by then.
Back to what I am asking, instead of discrediting a proven platform like the F-16 B 52....please share some insight with us established by a credible source that tells me that the Rafale will overwhelm the F-16 B52 in every case and will just dominate everything. I'd like to see it. Once someone does that, I don't have a reason to continue on questioning your knowledge. Thanks,

 

[ANPP]

You guys are missing my point. I've ALREADY said it in my posts above (the the one you responded to) that with SPECTRA and Meteor, the F-16 B52 isn't the right comparison, compare with F-16 B60 and B70 as SPECTRA and Meteor make it a superior plane in some cases. But this isn't mean that the F-16 B52 will be dropping like flys.
So please, focus on what I am asking and could someone please answer me instead of making these grandiose statements? Or at least back it up with some credible military source??

You are exactly right. It will be better if we took blk60.

Let me tell you, even today most air confrontations are solve in wvr. So whethere they started in BVR, it is much more important in wvr. BVR just give a pulse point to fighter & here Rafale get the lead.

When twice of fighter are in range(rafale & blk52), twice will try to fire their bvr missile, but here Rafale has an advantage of EWS/ECM & jammers. Rafle can make blk52 radar blind, while it is nearly impossible for f16, especially with AESA radar.

Now while f16 will try to break lock, same time Rafale will try to get better position for WVR engagement. Now higher maneuverability, man machine interface, better senser fusion & better situational awerness of Rafale will help in WVR a lot.

One member was saying that AMRAAM could be directed from AWCS. Belive me in high concernted field, it is nearly impossible for AWCS. Because its primary objective is to keep track to enemy/friendly a/c, as well as give the guidance & make communication link b/t fighters & as much time AWCS will give for the guidance of AMRAAM it will be much more dangerous to be hack from the enemy a/c.

 

[notorious_eagle]

UK ordered AIM120 as a stopgap for meteor and they will go for meteor once it has been integrated with EFT. So I take their word over any random person on a random internet forum. You can put your money anywhere you want to.

Off course UK was going to order Meteor, she is part owner of the MBDA consortium so it was natural they were going to order it. The only question is, how much money has been sunk into Meteor and how much testing is the missile going to be put through? The AMRAAM has been fired against retired aircraft that have been turned into drones that were spitting out flares and manoeuvring aggressively. Does MBDA has enough funds to engage in testing like this? I don't know, only time will tell.

About being combat proven, you guys don't question the aquisition of JF17 and J10B which are the most unproven aircraft in the world, but suddenly a plane is which has seen two wars becomes not proven enough. For your info, American F16s have never been put against the best either. The airforces they fought featured outdated Migs, inept pilots, lack of AWACS coverage and numerical inferiority.

I don't know much about the J10B's but JF17's have been put through the grind by PAF. They regularly are fielded against the F16's and engaged in mock combats. JF17 two years ago completed 10 000 sorties and has conducted bombing runs in the FATAville. I never said that Rafale is not proven, its a very good and a potent machine but not invincible as you Indians make it out to be. As far as the capabilities of the USAF is concerned, please refrain from trolling as every independent analyst would agree that USAF is the best trained airforce in the world. The amount of training and the level of hardware they possess is simply unmatched. While the world is trying to field an aircraft rival to the F22, the USAF has been operating that for more than a decade.

About the future of the program, you should know that we are getting Rafales with complete ToT and 108 out 126 will be assembled in India itself. So we have legal ability to perform upgrades on them. As to if we have technological capability to do so, we will only know it in 2030. But the point is, it can be done, check out how we upgraded our Jaguars.

I have my doubts over this. There is no way the French will give you all the access to their proprietary information. Unless the Indians pay a royalty or some method of payment is setup, i have my doubts if the French will give you the entire TOT. The French spent far more on their technology than what the IAF is paying them.

PS: If american weapons were so good, Pakistan's wouldn't be the largest operator of mirages in the world.

Pakistan is the largest operator of Mirage because she was an international pariah during the 90's and Mirages were the easiest to acquire. If it were upto the PAF, she would have her entire fleet equipped of F16's and American hardware. American hardware is indeed the best in the world, because at the end of the day it all comes down to money. The amount of revenue produced by Boeing and Lockheed Martin is more than the entire defence budget of India.

 

[Bratva]

some people forgetting American Spectra in F-16's A.K.A DRFM

 

[Viper0011.]

You are exactly right. It will be better if we took blk60.

Let me tell you, even today most air confrontations are solve in wvr. So whethere they started in BVR, it is much more important in wvr. BVR just give a pulse point to fighter & here Rafale get the lead.

When twice of fighter are in range(rafale & blk52), twice will try to fire their bvr missile, but here Rafale has an advantage of EWS/ECM & jammers. Rafle can make blk52 radar blind, while it is nearly impossible for f16, especially with AESA radar.

Ok, I am glad someone tried to admit and compared the SPECTRA and Meteor suite to the F-16 B-60. OR F-16 B-52, with DRFM, AESA and AMRAAM D (same capability, only mature with F-16's as the DRFM has been used on these for years).
Next, why would a EWS/ECM jamm the F-16 B-52 Radar blind? Care to elaborate? Do you know the EM resistant in AN-APG series of Radars, specially starting from V9? You realize V9 was made knowing that some countries were moving to AESA right? So I let you decipher what I just stated. You are GROSSLY over calculating the capability of the F-16 B-52. It is THE CURRENT USAF standard. So you think the USAF will make a standard that's not the top class? You also know that no one's more advanced than the US military correct? So. I am going to rest my case here and let you know that you are overly and grossly miscalculating the capability in F-16 B-52's. The ONLY thing I think is a disadvantage in a general Rafale vs. the F-16 B-52 is the unavailability of AMRAAM D. That's pretty much it.

Now while f16 will try to break lock, same time Rafale will try to get better position for WVR engagement. Now higher maneuverability, man machine interface, better senser fusion & better situational awerness of Rafale will help in WVR a lot.

So when your F-16 is trying to break the lock as you are suggesting here....what is the Rafale doing? Just chilling and having a cold beer with some peanuts? Waiting for the F-16 to cry? Common man, be real. Have you EVER been in an air combat or have seen details about these two? In the scenario of India and Pakistan, the missiles will be fired almost at the same time. The planes will be breaking the lock almost at the same time. And they will get into a WVR at the same time too. So when the F-16 will be breaking a lock, the Rafale will ALSO be struggling to break the lock of an AIM9x. Rafale ain't F-22 that it's blind to the Radar. So please get real.

One member was saying that AMRAAM could be directed from AWCS. Belive me in high concernted field, it is nearly impossible for AWCS. Because its primary objective is to keep track to enemy/friendly a/c, as well as give the guidance & make communication link b/t fighters & as much time AWCS will give for the guidance of AMRAAM it will be much more dangerous to be hack from the enemy a/c.

Why would it be nearly impossible? If the US, Russia and or China were fighting a war, I could understand that. But in India and Pakistan's scenario, not so much so. The AWACS AESA radar can prioritize which conflict it needs to monitor and control first. All these conflicts in an air war last for a few minutes. So, the AESA based system can focus its beams towards the 'package' that has the highest priority. Plus in an integrated environment, the AWACS can manage and control conflicts and provide guidance while assign the Search and Track operations to other assets, AWACS or Ground Control radars. That's why AWACS are primarily used. A couple of AWACS can handle and manage operations like the Desert Storm!!!

 

[ANPP]

Ok, I am glad someone tried to admit and compared the SPECTRA and Meteor suite to the F-16 B-60. OR F-16 B-52, with DRFM, AESA and AMRAAM D (same capability, only mature with F-16's as the DRFM has been used on these for years).
Next, why would a EWS/ECM jamm the F-16 B-52 Radar blind? Care to elaborate? Do you know the EM resistant in AN-APG series of Radars, specially starting from V9? You realize V9 was made knowing that some countries were moving to AESA right? So I let you decipher what I just stated. You are GROSSLY over calculating the capability of the F-16 B-52. It is THE CURRENT USAF standard. So you think the USAF will make a standard that's not the top class? You also know that no one's more advanced than the US military correct? So. I am going to rest my case here and let you know that you are overly and grossly miscalculating the capability in F-16 B-52's. The ONLY thing I think is a disadvantage in a general Rafale vs. the F-16 B-52 is the unavailability of AMRAAM D. That's pretty much it.

No, you dont get it bro. Even you put best tech on PESA radar & try to make it jamm proof, but it always easier to jam PESA radar. It is just not about f16 radar, it goes to every radar working in any fighter unless it is too much powerful. As you can see bisons & rose are able to perform good against f16 due to their good jammers. While AESA radar work completely different concept & thats make it naturally jamm proff.

BTW can you tell me blk52 radar peak power.

So when your F-16 is trying to break the lock as you are suggesting here....what is the Rafale doing? Just chilling and having a cold beer with some peanuts? Waiting for the F-16 to cry? Common man, be real. Have you EVER been in an air combat or have seen details about these two? In the scenario of India and Pakistan, the missiles will be fired almost at the same time. The planes will be breaking the lock almost at the same time. And they will get into a WVR at the same time too. So when the F-16 will be breaking a lock, the Rafale will ALSO be struggling to break the lock of an AIM9x. Rafale ain't F-22 that it's blind to the Radar. So please get real.

I said they will try to fire missile same time, not fire missile same time. While Rafales can jamm & even hack( I think because it is reported by hellenic air force that in most DACT miraj were able to heck f16). I dont think pilot will fire AIM9, when it is trying to evade missile ( because it is impossible so far). Later story is Spectra not need to give detail about it.

Why would it be nearly impossible? If the US, Russia and or China were fighting a war, I could understand that. But in India and Pakistan's scenario, not so much so. The AWACS AESA radar can prioritize which conflict it needs to monitor and control first. All these conflicts in an air war last for a few minutes. So, the AESA based system can focus its beams towards the 'package' that has the highest priority. Plus in an integrated environment, the AWACS can manage and control conflicts and provide guidance while assign the Search and Track operations to other assets, AWACS or Ground Control radars. That's why AWACS are primarily used. A couple of AWACS can handle and manage operations like the Desert Storm!!!

Bro if USA/russia were fought a war than it had much more chances of directing missiles. In case of Indo-Pak, how much AEWC we are using, not more than 10 & fighters in the sky could be exceeded upto 200 easily. Yes there could be few situations/areas where this could be possible but these situation are rare

It is not AESA radar which can prioritize the target it is its computer & processing system. As I say it can increase HACKING PROBABILITY of AWACS.

 

[Storm Force]

i cant believe this TOPIC has 58 pages too it.

PAKISTANIS TRYING TO PROVE to anyone that will listen that THE F16/52 is anywhere close to RAFALE ans especially to a RAFALE F3 that will be entering service with the IAF in 2-3 years time.

LET ME JUST CONFIRM A FEW HARD FACTS

1. The indians flew the F16 latest version in the MMRCA both at home over LEH IN THE HIMLAYERS & IN THE DESERT HEAT of rajasthan. They did the same with rafale & 4 other jets... LET ME CONFIRM LOUD AND CLEAR F16 came bottom but one in the MMRCA. COMPETITION. The same competition in HOLLAND had the same result F16 bottom ....

2. The rafale wins hand down over F16 in all critical areas let me explain.

AESA radar RBE2 scans 10 x as fast AS THE F16/52 apg MSA radar. YES ten as fast

3. RAFALE RCS is 1/3 OF THE rcs of the F16/52 whose airframe is 25 years older indesign.

4, rafale carries bigger load of jammers and EW suites

5, RAFALE COCKPIT interface is one generation ahead of the F16. B52....

Throwing in useless unproven comments like we have AWACS the distance between indo pak border is only 100 mil;ers does not change the fact that in EVERY SINGLE KEY AREA THE RAFALE has newer more modern technology...

 

[Viper0011.]

No, you dont get it bro. Even you put best tech on PESA radar & try to make it jamm proof, but it always easier to jam PESA radar. It is just not about f16 radar, it goes to every radar working in any fighter unless it is too much powerful. As you can see bisons & rose are able to perform good against f16 due to their good jammers. While AESA radar work completely different concept & thats make it naturally jamm proff.

It is not AESA radar which can prioritize the target it is its computer & processing system. As I say it can increase HACKING PROBABILITY of AWACS.

Ok, as always and about ANYTHING, you guys will keep defending your item here. Be it Rafale or anything else. What you can't and won't produce it a legit document by a legit defense corresponding organization like JANES, AF MOnthly, etc. That says the Rafale is superior to the F-16 block 52, 60 and 70. Now you've introduced a new concept called Hacking the airplane.
Let me be honest here. Just by reading the fan boy crap. I know for a fact that you've never flown in an air combat scenario in your life. Nor do you have a decent enough background about EM systems used in jets with Avionics like DRFM (and your SPECTRA), not do you have a background in intelligence gathering like AWACS. So with that, I'll rest my case

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Ok, as always and about ANYTHING, you guys will keep defending your item here. Be it Rafale or anything else. What you can't and won't produce it a legit document by a legit defense corresponding organization like JANES, AF MOnthly, etc. That says the Rafale is superior to the F-16 block 52, 60 and 70. Now you've introduced a new concept called Hacking the airplane.
Let me be honest here. Just by reading the fan boy crap. I know for a fact that you've never flown in an air combat scenario in your life. Nor do you have a decent enough background about EM systems used in jets with Avionics like DRFM (and your SPECTRA), not do you have a background in intelligence gathering like AWACS. So with that, I'll rest my case

you may omit f16blk 52 from the list, blk 60, blk 70 is debatable.

 

[ANPP]

Ok, as always and about ANYTHING, you guys will keep defending your item here. Be it Rafale or anything else. What you can't and won't produce it a legit document by a legit defense corresponding organization like JANES, AF MOnthly, etc. That says the Rafale is superior to the F-16 block 52, 60 and 70. Now you've introduced a new concept called Hacking the airplane.
Let me be honest here. Just by reading the fan boy crap. I know for a fact that you've never flown in an air combat scenario in your life. Nor do you have a decent enough background about EM systems used in jets with Avionics like DRFM (and your SPECTRA), not do you have a background in intelligence gathering like AWACS. So with that, I'll rest my case

I dont tell about hack the a/c lol. I am talking about hacking of radar & why are you replying when you dont know about that.

You are one who are trying to defend your item here check the posts.

Rafale is way better than F16blk52 & even blk60. And seriously I dont need to sit on any cockpit to know that fact.

 

[Storm Force]

ORANGEIB

STOP COMPARING A F16/52 which is 25 years old in technology to a 21st century euro canard liker the RAFALE.

THE F16/52 are being beaten to a pulp by the IAF on a weekly basis in excercises between the IAF and SINGPORE AIRFORCE

Have you ever wondered why USA & NATO countries are scrapping F16s in favour of F35 TYPHOON & GRIPEN ....

 

[Viper0011.]

I dont tell about hack the a/c lol. I am talking about hacking of radar & why are you replying when you dont know about that.
You are one who are trying to defend your item here check the posts.

Rafale is way better than F16blk52 & even blk60. And seriously I dont need to sit on any cockpit to know that fact.

This sounds pretty silly IMO. But whatever floats your boat. I am not trying to defend my product. I am just being a realistic instead of putting pipe dreams into writing. Asking for a credible resource or organization's endorsement to what you are saying isn't defending anything. It is to differentiate between a few people's pipe dreams vs. reality!!!

 

[Viper0011.]

ORANGEIB
THE F16/52 are being beaten to a pulp by the IAF on a weekly basis in excercises between the IAF and SINGPORE AIRFORCE

Have you ever wondered why USA & NATO countries are scrapping F16s in favour of F35 TYPHOON & GRIPEN ....

1 No one is 'comparing' anything. I am looking for someone to tell me that there is a credible organization that supports the Indian community's pipe dreams here that Rafale is the mother of everything.

2): Will you also share a Singapore Airforce's statements where they 'acknowledged' the fact that they being constantly beaten by the superior IAF? How do you know that's the case? Anyone can claim stuff......like you guys do here. I am just looking for an indepedent source to back it up with.......so please provide a credible third party source on Rafale vs. the F-16 and also on SAF's F-16's beaten to a pulp by the IAF (as you called it)

3) USA and NATO are two different things. So, the US is not moving to the F-35 now, etc. That started in 1995 to move to the F-22 and the F-35. So it is almost the past. Today the US is ACTUALLY moving towards Hypersonic and unmanned air force and the Navy

 

[Storm Force]

orangzeib.

No one is 'comparing' anything. I am looking for someone to tell me that there is a credible organization that supports the Indian community's pipe dreams here that Rafale is the mother of everything.



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/106105-rafale-vs-f-16-block52-58.html#ixzz2JxrNeCCu

No indian said the RAFALE is the mother of everything. YOUR MAKING THIS UP....

THE RAFALE is a late 4th generation fighter of FRENCH ORIGIN

The F16/52 is a upgraded early 4th generation fighter. it so happens the FRENCH HAVE A VERY GOOD early 4th generation fighter in the mirage2000. IT SO HAPPENS THE IAF have a F16/52 COMPARABLE fighter in the upgraded MIRAGE2000-5

So you see the F16/52 is equal to MIRAGE2000-5

Rafale is superior to f16/52 & MIRAGE2000-5 but inferior to F22....

I SUGGEST YOU READ AND DIGEST THIS Rafale F2 vs F-16 Blk52 , 6-2 on the 1st day

HERES YOUR INDEPENDANT SOURCE