Rafale true force multiplier, a pair is equal to Six Mirage-2000s, deal with India soon: Dassault Ch

[PARIKRAMA]

But, yes, most signs point towards a Reliance-Dassault JV

Reliance folks would cry to the quality control norms of Dassault. Not sure if they can handle such supervision and tight regime for high standards. But yes what you said is true.. It looks like Reliance Aerospace may take the cake. But personally i would have preferred either Tata first or L&T second. Tata brand name gives a much bigger value to Dassault Tata JV then perhaps a Dassault Reliance JV..

Interestingly, i do wish the Dassault MII plant is not in Gujarat.. Hope its either in Maharastra or perhaps in Andhra Pradesh... But knwoing Reliance it wont go away from Gujarat so maximum i think would be Maharastra. You feel which state suits best this plant.

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

But India is only getting 36 Rafales, right?

@Hindustani78 @GURU DUTT @Ind4Ever @PARIKRAMA @Gabriel92



There are sufficient safeguards in place in all such deals, the Rafale purchase will not be the first multi-billion USD defence deal India has ever conducted with massive offset requirements, this will all be handled by the respective agencies in accordance with binding contracts. Sufficient securities will be in place to protect both sides.


This Rafale deal has made some people so paranoid.


I could tell you what I know to be true (i.e. 90-153 made in India) but I know the typical characters will come along and be skeptical so let's just wait and see what happens. I have had some pretty positive conversations with people I know in the defence industry in the past 36 hours so I am more than a little confident


It is clearly a very self-serving narrative and what can one expect, is new not always better when it comes to salesmen and their products? Anyway, it depends on what criteria Mr Trappier is using to quantify this 2 Rafales= 6 Mirage 2000s assessment. To be honest this is not entirely absurd given the substantial advances in technology that have been made in the past few decades since the Mirage 2000 entered service. The SPECTRA suite on the Rafales alone is a completely revolutionary system that rivals that of even 5th generation aircraft (F-22) let alone the M2K. Adding to that is the inherent hardware advantages the Rafale has over the single engined M2K (longer range, more manoeuvrable, higher weapons carrying capability etc) I had seen a Dassualt document a few years back that said 1 SQN alone could cover the entire airspace of India in an air policing role without any help from ground assets using AWACS support and its own sensors for situational awareness.

Having said that, it is all too easy to come up with specific statistics to back up almost any argument you want to make- as they say "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"



What's more important is:




This is going to cause a lot of heartburn to certain people.....

A straight questions how much will it coat for india efen if its made in india ?

As for as we know 36 rafale could cost 8/9 billion at best without tot add 50-30% moee per aircraft for ToT and time delays alwell .

 

[Abingdonboy]

Reliance folks would cry to the quality control norms of Dassault. Not sure if they can handle such supervision and tight regime for high standards.

You feel which state suits best this plant.

Hmmm, this is not something I had thought about to be honest but it is a fine question. Well Bangalore is the heartland of HAL and Hyderabad is said to be being developed as a defence manufacturing hub so both are worth considering and Maharashtra may be a good idea with the DMIC (encompassing the all important DFC) is coming up . I'm sure that both sides of the JV (whoever the Indian partner may end up being) will take all relevant details into account and make a sensible decision. Under the new GoI one can certainly expect lightning fast clearances regardless.

A straight questions how much will it coat for india efen if its made in india ?

I'll first refer you to what I posted the other day about the fallacy of calculating unit costs based on procurement costs:

Dividing $5bn by 36 to get your unit price of 139 USD (not Euros bro) is a far too simplistic and flawed method of calculating the actual unit cost of the Rafales being sold to India. As I've explained before, such a deal will include the cost of a large amount of spares, training, simulators, integrating Indian (customer) specific equipment (like LITENING LDPs and HMDS)weapons, support packages, warrantees, stetting up requisite ground infrastructure in India etc etc. These are mammoth costs but will only be incurred the once, it will be far more sensible to calculate the unit cost of Rafales being sold to India when India orders follow-on units (even then only if they are coming from France, if they are being built in India which is more likely then it will be difficult to compare like for like).


And the MiG-35 is a dead horse, they aren't even selling it to their own forces or anyone else- the IAF aren't going for it end of story.


+it's funny how the price keeps dropping, before it was reported India will get 36 for $10BN, then $8BN now only $5BN.



Let's wait and see the true figure and what comes with the package.

Secondly I would say that I do not understand this fascination with unit costs, life cycle costs are FAR more significant and relevant and are spread out over the lifetime of the product. Even the upfront procurement cost will be paid over a period of 10-12 years starting from 2016 so it is hardly a massive burden.

 

[zambino]

So the bottomline is rafale is comming and its comming hugeee. Some my fellow indians wiil now believe what abingdonboy and parikrama have said all these months. One thing for sure we ain't gonna sign the deal of 36 untill the path for the rest is not clear. And regarding jv , i think reliance or mahindra or both will make the rest of the rafales.

 

[sathya]

If 36 rafale payment is spread out to 10 years , when will the JV start ?
I mean it's payment will also overlap the 36 payment right ?

 

[Bang Galore]

Secondly I would say that I do not understand this fascination with unit costs, life cycle costs are FAR more significant and relevant and are spread out over the lifetime of the product. Even the upfront procurement cost will be paid over a period of 10-12 years starting from 2016 so it is hardly a massive burden.

Unit costs are important because that will go to the budget straightaway, lifetime costs are important but secondary in the scheme of things. What do you mean that the upfront costs will be paid over 10-12 years? For the 36?

 

[SQ8]

So Dassault came out with the idea that HAL simply isnt the sort of partner they are looking for. Makes sense, Ive been saying that private firms need a lot more involvement in this deal if it is to truly benefit Indian R&D on a macro scale.

 

[anant_s]

So Dassault came out with the idea that HAL simply isnt the sort of partner they are looking for. Makes sense, Ive been saying that private firms need a lot more involvement in this deal if it is to truly benefit Indian R&D on a macro scale.

sir
while indian aviation players may not benefit much as far as far as R&D part is concerned, but surely assembly and manufacture of one the most advanced fighter right now will be an opportunity to learn and fine tune their own work setup.
hopefully this will have positive impact on future projects as well.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The hub and spoke model and supply chain localisation over time is what could be the best option to consider instead of looking at one big term TOT. Getting over 5000+ vendors to open up shop in India and also start procuring locally as well as sharing bit by bit know how to allied industries can be a much bigger game changer in coming years,,, Even if its just assembling from Kits like MKI experience has taught us. If we do get something above this and more tech then lets be happy more thn.

 

[SQ8]

sir
while indian aviation players may not benefit much as far as far as R&D part is concerned, but surely assembly and manufacture of one the most advanced fighter right now will be an opportunity to learn and fine tune their own work setup.
hopefully this will have positive impact on future projects as well.

They will, because their processes will improve in R&D when working with Dassault. The Rafale being delivered will not be the 60th Rafale delivered to India.

During the process from this.

To this, India has a lot to learn by cooperating with Dassault in the process.

 

[anant_s]

View attachment 253706

sir, what is that bulge we see on fuselage (around vertical stabilizer)?

 

[chanikya]

sir, what is that bulge we see on fuselage (around vertical stabilizer)?

Conformal fuel tank

 

[GURU DUTT]

saari baat chorro truth of pudding is in eating .... when the deal will be signed and rafales will land on an indian airstrip in IAF colours onli then im going to beleve .... but the question is whats its flyaway cost , cost of upgrades and cost of wepons .... even if you leave training and mantanence for now

 

[[Bregs]]

saari baat chorro truth of pudding is in eating .... when the deal will be signed and rafales will land on an indian airstrip in IAF colours onli then im going to beleve .... but the question is whats its flyaway cost , cost of upgrades and cost of wepons .... even if you leave training and mantanence for now

lol well said

 

[chanikya]

saari baat chorro truth of pudding is in eating .... when the deal will be signed and rafales will land on an indian airstrip in IAF colours onli then im going to beleve .... but the question is whats its flyaway cost , cost of upgrades and cost of wepons .... even if you leave training and mantanence for now

They are trying to bring it around $200 mil each piece