Rafale & Sukhoi Can't Replace Each Other: IAF Chief

[Bang Galore]

Capping the price? At what price would you want to place the cap. How do you determine that?

Err...By how much we can afford. Same like you & me don't go around shortlisting a Ferrari because it is technically more capable.

The MMRCA tender I believe was very reasonable and unique at that time. Competitive trials was a good idea. Set minimum requirements (which were somewhat futuristic, and reasonably so). Separate the men from the boys and buy the cheapest one. I don't know why the requirements were so stringent that Hornet, Viper and Gripen flopped or if they had comparative trials (On another forum, some poster claimed that it was so, with Rafale emerging 1st and EF 2nd).
Anyway, it gave us the opportunity to have a close look at the performance of 6 different jets, 5 of which we didn't even need to buy. Plus, when the deal was originally envisioned i.e pre financial crisis period; money would have been the last thing in the minds of our planners. Even then ~85 mn per jet was considered expensive back then (for any jet bar the might F-22).

Unfortunately they did the opposite, pretty much set the maximum possible requirement. Even refused to allow the SH to change the engine on offer (after problems at Leh), not something you do if you want the best possible offer. There is no logic to directly compare single engined light aircraft with heavier twin engined ones without allowing cost to be a factor. If you shortlist on technical grounds alone, you can be sure the expensive ones will be on that list; little wonder that they are technically better.

If this was as easy as is believed, do you think the government would have dragged this out so long & caused so much delay? The Rafale is a great plane, this deal is anything but. Whether or not they dump this deal, it remains a very bad idea when seen on economic grounds alone.

 

[The enlightened]

Err...By how much we can afford. Same like you & me don't go around shortlisting a Ferrari because it is technically more capable.

In 2007, coming on the back of 9%+ growth (and growing) with an ever appreciating Rupee, 10.4 billion dollars was pretty reasonable. Even after the crisis, until the Indian economy faced its own crisis starting 2012, Raffy was fairly affordable.

Unfortunately they did the opposite, pretty much set the maximum possible requirement.

Bang Galore's opinion of what should be the requirement vs IAF's assessment on what they want out of a jet that will remain in service beyond 2050. Hmmm... not so difficult to choose when I put it that way. Not to mention we don't even know what the requirements were.

Even refused to allow the SH to change the engine on offer (after problems at Leh), not something you do if you want the best possible offer.

Rumors, hearsay, tittle-tattle

There is no logic to directly compare single engined light aircraft with heavier twin engined ones without allowing cost to be a factor. If you shortlist on technical grounds alone, you can be sure the expensive ones will be on that list; little wonder that they are technically better.

Why not? Everyone does it the same way. Ever see the Swiss evaluation report? IAF wants the best jet possible. It wants 126 of them. Cost and monies is for the exchequer to worry about. Not the armed forces. As it turns, they didn't feel cost-effectiveness to be an important factor. If we re-did the whole thing and for some god-forsaken reason decided to include JF-17 in the trial, would you say that JF's cheap price over everyone else should also be a factor in the eventual selection.

If this was as easy as is believed, do you think the government would have dragged this out so long & caused so much delay? The Rafale is a great plane, this deal is anything but. Whether or not they dump this deal, it remains a very bad idea when seen on economic grounds alone.

A big part of the delay is caused due to license-production and offset requirements and the Government spending all that time shortlisting all those firms that would be made a part of it. Su-30MKI wasn't signed inside of one year either.

 

[Bang Galore]

In 2007, coming on the back of 9%+ growth (and growing) with an ever appreciating Rupee, 10.4 billion dollars was pretty reasonable. Even after the crisis, until the Indian economy faced its own crisis starting 2012, Raffy was fairly affordable.

Then $10-11 billion should have been the band.

Bang Galore's opinion of what should be the requirement vs IAF's assessment on what they want out of a jet that will remain in service beyond 2050. Hmmm... not so difficult to choose when I put it that way. Not to mention we don't even know what the requirements were.

We know that the two most expensive aircrafts on that list were the only ones to make the mark. Not like the U.S. military is the habit of picking useless aircrafts.

Rumors, hearsay, tittle-tattle

Pretty well known.

Why not? Everyone does it the same way. Ever see the Swiss evaluation report? IAF wants the best jet possible. It wants 126 of them. Cost and monies is for the exchequer to worry about. Not the armed forces. As it turns, they didn't feel cost-effectiveness to be an important factor. If we re-did the whole thing and for some god-forsaken reason decided to include JF-17 in the trial, would you say that JF's cheap price over everyone else should also be a factor in the eventual selection.

The price is not the main factor or even the deciding factor, it does allow us to evaluate what we are paying for & whether the additional feature is worth the money. Cost & features should both be a factor. Didn't blame the IAF alone, pointed out that MoD & MoF should have looked at this more closely.

A big part of the delay is caused due to license-production and offset requirements and the Government spending all that time shortlisting all those firms that would be made a part of it. Su-30MKI wasn't signed inside of one year either.

The government is sticking to a different line. That Dassault is refusing to comply with the RFP. This wasn't signed by the UPA because there was no money. As DM said, it will suck up about 50% of the capital expenditure, you can be sure that plays a part too in whatever delay there is.

Cost and monies is for the exchequer to worry about. Not the armed forces.

Let's agree to disagree. If you don't think that this is linked, then I'm afraid our philosophies on this are too divergent to find a meeting point.

 

[acid rain]

its realli funny to see kickbacks greedy & "foriegn maal loving" IAF desparatelli trying to sell rafale to indian publik when new govt hasmade it clear that PMO& MOD cant be taken fora ride by french and there indian stooges

as for new fighters well my assesment is MOD has made up its mind for 3 squads of Mig 35s + 5 squads on Tejas (1MK1 & 2 MK2) and couple of squads of MKI with "better engines"& AESA radar & AESA based EW suite & self protection jammers

Mig 35 foreign mal nahin hai kya bhai?
The Russians in the past have taken us for a ride more than the French, Americans or Israeli's.

Plus we want western platforms against China. .mig 35 ko Su 35 se aur su 30 ko su30 se bidayenge kya?

 

[The enlightened]

Let's agree to disagree.

Agreed

 

[GURU DUTT]

Mig 35 foreign mal nahin hai kya bhai?
The Russians in the past have taken us for a ride more than the French, Americans or Israeli's.

Plus we want western platforms against China. .mig 35 ko Su 35 se aur su 30 ko su30 se bidayenge kya?

last point is validand here i guess tejas fits in with its very small RCS & AESA radar and latest EW suits just might do thetrik for us ...what say


personalli i love rafales but french are asking too much for them and both PMO & MOD have madfe up there mind to let french go

 

[acid rain]

last point is validand here i guess tejas fits in with its very small RCS & AESA radar and latest EW suits just might do thetrik for us ...what say


personalli i love rafales but french are asking too much for them and both PMO & MOD have madfe up there mind to let french go

Tejas is point defense..Limited combat range.. limited use... I think rafale will go through.