Rafale Stuck In Officialdom, Not One Defence Rfp Or Tender Issued Despite $16b Approvals

[Stephen Cohen]

1.dassult has paid UPA and its stooges full ammount of cuts in advance but deal dint went thru and now is scrapped

2. dassult wants its money back or the sum added to the new deal but cant disclose the ammount it paid to indian partenrs as it will ammount to very serous repucursions

SO why cannot Dassault declare that it paid bribes to the GANDHIS and the Congress

 

[Star Wars]

SO why cannot Dassault declare that it paid bribes to the GANDHIS and the Congress

Will give a bad name to Dessault and most prolly the BRits and Germans will go mental...

 

[GURU DUTT]

SO why cannot Dassault declare that it paid bribes to the GANDHIS and the Congress

ever heared of "monkey tarp" and what UPA ministers use to say about indian beurocracy .... thing is "khanna hai to hamme bhi khilao" + there were too many scandals popping owt every month (specially exorbitant ammounts paid for upgrade programmes of M2K and Mig29s and procurement of C-17s & augusta westland scam which had already raised too many eyebrows)

and then there were anna's movement and BJP which itself had some assets in MOD and finance departments which spilled the beans too earli had UPA gone ahead all the pandoras box would have had oppenned.... rest you can speculate yourself

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@GURU DUTT

If indeed the Congress Party has taken bribes from Dassault then
The Government should NOT sign any deal until Dassault declares this fact

But usually bribes are taken when the deal is signed ; not while they are being negotiated

Neither Congress nor Dassault would have made this mistake

Congress knew they were on their way out and Augusta Westland scam had already
leaked before the elections ; which had caused a lot of trouble to them
as it was one more addition to their list of scams

So I think this Rafale bribes did not happen in the Congress term as you are suggesting

 

[GURU DUTT]

@GURU DUTT

If indeed the Congress Party has taken bribes from Dassault then
The Government should NOT sign any deal until Dassault declares this fact

But usually bribes are taken when the deal is signed ; not while they are being negotiated

Neither Congress nor Dassault would have made this mistake

Congress knew they were on their way out and Augusta Westland scam had already
leaked before the elections ; which had caused a lot of trouble to them
as it was one more addition to their list of scams

So I think this Rafale bribes did not happen in the Congress term as you are suggesting

did you know any one in any private institution that works in goverment tenderring or know someone who got a tender in common wealth games ask them the questions about how and when bribes are given ... trust me you sir will never ask these questions again

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Rafale and all other deals are stuck due to financial reasons

There is a resource crunch right now for the MOD

 

[GURU DUTT]

Rafale and all other deals are stuck due to financial reasons

There is a resource crunch right now for the MOD

 

[Abingdonboy]

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s grand effort of bailing out the Dassault Rafale fighters deal from bureaucratic tangle with the decision to purchase 36 fighters in ‘ready to fly condition’ has sunk again into an impasse where escalating costs, and prohibitive delays have bogged down the negotiations being held in France.

​

A team of negotiators from India led by Deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal SBP Sinha have submitted a list of alterations that the French maintain will increase the price, and delay the supply of the fighters. India is insisting that Dassault invest 50% of the overall contract price as offsets in its domestic defence or internal security sectors, according to the Janes Defence Weekly.

Political intervention , thus, is again becoming necessary, according to sources, with PM Modi’s Man Friday, Ajit Doval expected by sections of the military to fly down to France to break the deadlock.

Defence was a major platform of the BJP during the election campaign for the Lok Sabha elections, and former Defence Minister A.K.Antony was repeatedly pilloried for indecisiveness and inaction.On the completion of one year in office BJP national spokesperson GV.Narasimha Rao told reporters, “defence strategic clearances were held up during the period of Antony as defence minister and the department was crying for support.”

The NDA government has cleared projects worth 16 billion dollar, but till date not a single Request for Proposal or a tender has been floated, let alone a defence deal signed. Rafale, despite the initial enthusiasm, is still being discussed with the agreement nowhere in sight.

Sources pointed out Dassault Aviation has decided to step up the production of the Rafale fighters from the current 11 to 16 a year. But it already has orders of 26 fighters each from Qatar and Egypt with India third on the list. And if the deal is not concluded soon, there could be orders from other countries that could then make India slip further down the line, thereby delaying the integration of the fighters the Indian Air Force so desperately needs.

Of course there is no word about the remaining 90 fighters of the original deal that was for 126. The questions raised by The Citizen at the time remain relevant even today. These are:

1. What are the terms and conditions for the supply of the 36—instead of the original 18—ready to fly Rafale aircraft? What will be the overall cost for the 36 aircraft. The price for the 18 aircraft that was part of the original L-1 tender was about $two billion, going up to unconfirmed figures of $ four billion. (it was subsequently increased to six billion dollars). Now that the numbers have doubled to 36, which would require infrastructural maintenance and sustenance what will India be paying for Prime Minister Modi’s commitment?

2. Is this a stand alone deal? Or part of the original contract for the supply of 126 fighter jets? It now appears to be a stand alone deal, but there is no word about the remaining fighters.

3. How soon is the ‘soon’? Dassault Aviation has an average of producing just 11 fighter jets a year. What is the time frame that has been discussed? Or has it been discussed at all? The government has spoken of early delivery, but given the current negotiations the schedule remains with a question mark.

4. What happens to the remaining 90 fighter jets? The contract was for 126 aircraft with 108 in the original understanding to be manufactured by public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Dassault had not agreed to the Indian insistence to stand guarantee for these aircraft. Does it mean that HAL will no longer be in the picture? There is no word about HAL even now.

5. Who then will get the contract for the remaining 90 fighters planes? Will it now go to the private sector? And currently in the private sector those with their homework in place are the Ambanis and the Adanis. so are they being considered for the contract? Unofficial reports suggest that they are in line, but again there is no confirmation whether the remainder of the initial agreement will go to the private sector.

In between Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has been making confusing statements. He has now fallen silent about the deal, and the grapevine suggests that he is looking for another post, having had enough of defence.

A sample of Parrikar’s statements:

“That is the only solution. In fact, only [Prime Minister Narendra] Modi could have taken this kind of decision. [When it comes to] Prime Ministers in the past many years, probably Atalji [Bihari Vajpayee] showed some decision-making ability. However, I would like to add that the decision is not complete. The decision is only to acquire 36 [aircraft] at better terms.” This was in April after the PM’s visit, indicative of the Minister’s own ignorance about the terms.

In May he told the Economic Times: “On the Rafale deal, for example, we are ordering just 36. If we had ordered 126, it would have been 3.75 times the cost. Yes, there are money issues but spending more effectively is more important.”

And again, “The basic message is that the Rafale deal has been restricted in number. By doing this, we will free about Rs 60,000-65,000 crore – money which will be used for Make in India. Even in the Rafale deal, we will have 50% offsets. So this will take care of partial Make in India. But more than that, we now have money released for activities that can be carried out in improving and speeding up the LCA (Light Combat Aircraft). We can have 10-12 squadrons as MiG 21 replacements.” Now the negotiating team is insisting on this offset, that the French have responded to by increasing the price. So from a quick, efficient, time saving deal it is again moving into a costly, time consuming delivery.

Parrikar was almost triumphant when he told the media then, “By buying 36 Rafale fighters at a price less than (what was quoted in response to) the earlier tender for 126 aircraft, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales. We will use that money to buy Tejas LCAs”. This seemed to be the first confirmation of what was being discussed in military circles that the original contract for 126 fighters had been reduced to the final 36.

But not so for within a day the Minister seemed to have had yet another change of heart, or mind. And instead of following up on the remarks he retracted with a tightlipped, “”I’m not saying we will buy more Rafale; I’m not saying we will not buy more.”And that is where the matter rests for the moment, leaving all the questions about the very basics of the deal unanswered.


Rafale Stuck In Officialdom, Not One Defence Rfp Or Tender Issued Despite $16b Approvals | idrw.org

The only thing worth mentioning from this article is that the Defence Minister has done nothing but makes things more unclear and confusing in this whole affair.


In regards to where this deal stands- have no doubts it is going to come one way or another- the PM himself staked this path and he is hardly a man to back away from his convictions.

The rest of the article is much of the same that we heard about the MMRCA, the media is doing nothing but regurgate the same old clichés and half truths.

Rafale and all other deals are stuck due to financial reasons

There is a resource crunch right now for the MOD

Based on what?

India's fiscal deficit has shrunk considerably and India's economy is soaring with a modest increase in the defence budget for 2015-16, where is the resource crunch?

Congress knew they were on their way out and Augusta Westland scam had already
leaked before the elections ; which had caused a lot of trouble to them
as it was one more addition to their list of scams

There was no such Augusta Westland scam involving India, Italian and CBI investigators have said as much.

SO why cannot Dassault declare that it paid bribes to the GANDHIS and the Congress

Because this is utter nonsense- NO bribes were paid, no one, not even losing contenders, have even hinted at such a thing despite it being well within their interests to have done so. All sides agree the MMRCA was conducted cleanly and transparently with no untoward behaviour on anyone's part, to suggest otherwise is nothing but fiction.

Kickbacks are being paid in all deal and thats not new to this deal alone,

Where's your proof mate?

In the past 2 decades India's defence procurements have been remarkably clean and above board, arguably the overly critical anti-graft measures have hurt India's defence procurement process just as much as corruption would have anyway but that is another discussion.

specially exorbitant ammounts paid for upgrade programmes of M2K and Mig29s and procurement of C-17s & augusta westland scam which had already raised too many eyebrows)

-The AW case has been thrown out- the Indian media and a self-serving DM simply jumped the gun and created a perception problem where there was nothing to be found.
-C-17s, who has questioned this G-2-G procurement?
-The M2K upgrades have been debated to death but there is no viable alternative, as the former ACM put it- what do you want the IAF to do? Throw away perfectly good planes with 15+ years of life left in them?
-MiG-29s, again, who has raised a single doubt about this procurement?

 

[[Bregs]]

Where's your proof mate?

In the past 2 decades India's defence procurements have been remarkably clean and above board, arguably the overly critical anti-graft measures have hurt India's defence procurement process just as much as corruption would have anyway but that is another discussion.

i know and believe that MRCA is a clean deal but since i was replying to Guru bhai who was so sure about kickback to Gandhi's that i mentioned this in his context because i do not like to join issues with any one about Indian speculative politics here at pdf

 

[GURU DUTT]

i know and believe that MRCA is a clean deal but since i was replying to Guru bhai who was so sure about kickback to Gandhi's that i mentioned this in his context because i do not like to join issues with any one about Indian speculative politics here at pdf

well brother money changes many hands for even a bullet bought from abroad to even shoes strings and shaving blades for goverment or armed forces no deal is clean deal .... now why NaMo & MP are under such enoromus pressure to sign the rafale deal ASAP as too muc money is at stakes even now

i can give you a 1001 exampels of dirty money involved in almost all goverment tendrs but here its about rafales and at the end of the day this deal seems to be going nowhere as niether the frenchies nor is the PMO or MOD ready to change there stance on ammount paid in kickbacks almost two years back

Screw Rafale and get state of art stealth fighter f35s. India can be potential customer and Now, you have better relation with U.S.A.

well that just might happen aswell who knows as some US reports suggest flyaway cost of F35 is almost same as that of rafale

 

[[Bregs]]

well brother money changes many hands for even a bullet bought from abroad to even shoes strings and shaving blades for goverment or armed forces no deal is clean deal .... now why NaMo & MP are under such enoromus pressure to sign the rafale deal ASAP as too muc money is at stakes even now

i can give you a 1001 exampels of dirty money involved in almost all goverment tendrs but here its about rafales and at the end of the day this deal seems to be going nowhere as niether the frenchies nor is the PMO or MOD ready to change there stance on ammount paid in kickbacks almost two years back

well i agree bro that money changes hands even in the ration meant for forward posts in himlayas, so all these bullets and other hardwares of war is not going to be spared

well that just might happen aswell who knows as some US reports suggest flyaway cost of F35 is almost same as that of rafale

Now this could be a wise deal because french i wish to see being penalized now

 

[GURU DUTT]

well i agree bro that money changes hands even in the ration meant for forward posts in himlayas, so all these bullets and other hardwares of war is not going to be spared



Now this could be a wise deal because french i wish to see being penalized now

well even the ruskies are showing attitude for FGFA deal + japs are also thinking of going whole hogg in rearming india so there are many new options coming towards india who knows what might happen in a couple of years time

 

[[Bregs]]

well even the ruskies are showing attitude for FGFA deal + japs are also thinking of going whole hogg in rearming india so there are many new options coming towards india who knows what might happen in a couple of years time

well you are right dear when economy runs on path of growth the whole world starts looking at you and same is the case for India now

 

[Abingdonboy]

nor is the PMO or MOD ready to change there stance on ammount paid in kickbacks almost two years back

You cannot use such definitive statements for completely unsubstantiated and slanderous opinions/fantasies bro.

There is zero evidence of this and if there was there would be a MASSIVE stink about it- first from the BJP when they were in opposition, then from the NDA-led GoI when they got into office and learned of any such wrongdoings. The GoI has had over a year now and ample access to all such relevant information and yet have chosen not to use, what would be, political dynamite against their opposition party.

Does this really sounds plausible?

Not only this but not a single losing bidder has even hinted that there was a shred of wrongdoing in the entire MMRCA selection process, do you really think they would not use every single tactic they had, including whistleblowing, in order to clinch a multi BILLION USD deal and scupper the chances of their rivals?

Now this could be a wise deal because french i wish to see being penalized now

Penalized for what? They have done nothing wrong.

well even the ruskies are showing attitude for FGFA deal + japs are also thinking of going whole hogg in rearming india so there are many new options coming towards india who knows what might happen in a couple of years time

The Russians are going dead slow on the PAK-FA project, forget about the paper plane that is the FGFA and remind me what fighter jet the Japanese produce that would be capable of meeting the IAF's requirements?

Lots and lots of hot air comes out from all quarters when it comes to the MMRCA/Rafale deal, lots of armchair experts and opinionated individuals suggesting a whole host of elaborate alternatives and solutuons- fast track FGFA and LCA Mk.2, go for the Gripen, go for the F-35, go for the F-18 SH, go for the EFT or the SU-35 etc

All whilst the IAF is STILL flying 50+ year old MiG-21s, that's it, the perfect solution to the problem is to wait a few more years and talk/speculate some more!

All whilst the PLAAF continues to grow and modernise and the IAF's SQN strength continues to plunge.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Perhaps a question to wonder is may be for planners if say IAF wants X number of fighters for Lo-Med-Hi mix for operational reasons.. They are bound to be mix of old legacy birds due for retirement, 4th or 4.5 Generation new birds to be inducted or already inducted and perhaps future 5th generation birds planned.. Now if i understand the new generation birds (much much closer to 5th generation or 5G itself) may have a larger capability gap over the predecessors or in simple words astounding plus points over 4G/4.5G birds. So is it a possibility that DM MP being a logical mind is aiming to get a high quality new fighters induction planned which fits this line of thinking.. The workhorse will be the local LCA as and when it gets FOC and as and when its upgrades are mass produced.. But rest apart from already MKIS, the mix of birds irrespective of Med-HI configuration.. He is contemplating a role specific need and perhaps a bird which can say replace one new bird for 2 existing birds needs...

Perhaps that is why DM MP is not worrying for squadron falling numbers.. as he is revolutionizing the concept of IAF planners to move away from minimum squadron numbers to effective squadron numbers.. In simple words its quality over quantity for real missions.. the basic workhorse LCA is more than enough for point def role with lower cost and local production..

A point of argument could be numbers is very important and bleeding strikes/skirmishes/battles could be negative for such a thought plan of limited high quality fleet.. Agreed, if u believe you are in a neighborhood when every country surrounding yours would like to invade your lands for their country's expansion.. Such is not the case here. Perhaps, PM Modi and DM MP is very clear that CHina and India wont go over War ever (the realist approach) but rather more of political/economical posturing and limited issues (liker border/South China Sea/Indian Ocean and rattling India over encirclement via investments ).

Perhaps we may end up seeing just LCA, rafale, Su 30 MKI and PAKFA/ FGFA.. Thats all..4 birds max.. 35 - 45 squadrons composition depending upon numbers break up.. This would perhaps be the greatest contribution of DM MP as he will set the stage for massive change in IAF planing and operational doctrine for future forever.