Rafale is not a Game Changer - Senior Analyst Shahzad Chaudhry

[Ajay Ghatak]

i would be cautious of tejas.... gnat was under-estimated as well.

It can be a great point defence intercepter. Besides, its American engine ensures that India can follow their western intense training regime without accidents that plague Russian jets. Its availability is a totally different issue: India does not have an experience in modular design making maintenance of the plane harder. It is a one trick pony but it does that trick good and more importantly, India will need that trick.

 

[jk007]

The last rumors (nothing official if I remember well) here in France, was that Dassault was ready to give assembly in India with a next order of 36.
The bigger is the order, the most easy it is to create a deep private aeronautical cluster in India.

For exemple (just my exemple)
36 more = just assembly.
72 = assembly + a part of the components made in India.
108 = assembly + 80% of the componentns in India.
etc.....

India WILL buy many more Rafale......I want between 200 - 300 Rafale in IAF......Also, China's latest actions changed everything......India can not afford Russian aircraft with 70% availability + maintenance nightmares anymore.....seems like French are also interested in strategic relationship with India........

 

[Nomad40]

It can be a great point defence intercepter. Besides, its American engine ensures that India can follow their western intense training regime without accidents that plague Russian jets. Its availability is a totally different issue: India does not have an experience in modular design making maintenance of the plane harder. It is a one trick pony but it does that trick good and more importantly, India will need that trick.

Tejas was never made to be a point defence fighter---It is there to replace the Mig-21, Mig-23 and eventually the Mig-29's so it is concept-ed as a Multi role fighter "Light fighter" what the tejas has to achieve greatness is in the multi role category which is Air-Air Bvr, Air-ground and ability to provide coverage for the primary fighter of the IAF.

Any plane can be a great point defence fighter.


Tejas also needs to be potent in its range and the multitude of weapons it can carry.

Tejas has an excellent power plant and possibly sophisticated Israeli and western avionics.

where the tejas fails greatly is an area that the Indian air force needs to exploit itself.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

Tejas was never made to be a point defence fighter---It is there to replace the Mig-21, Mig-23 and eventually the Mig-29's so it is concept-ed as a Multi role fighter "Light fighter" what the tejas has to achieve greatness is in the multi role category which is Air-Air Bvr, Air-ground and ability to provide coverage for the primary fighter of the IAF.

Any plane can be a great point defence fighter.

Trouble for Tejas right now is this : Not enough legs to do any deep penetration strike. Not enough selection of SoWs for ground attack role. Not enough legs to do a close air support. Limited support of BVRs to do a air superiority role. Lastly, an Israeli radar which does not integrate with good western missile likes Meteor. It limits Tejas a lot, basically to the point defence role, which it actually fulfills quite right. Better radar than Mig-21, modern airframe, very reliable engine so you can practice western style intense training, nimble aerodynamics.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Imagine IAF now with 100+ more Mirage 2000-5

Biases aside I love the roar of the SNECMA engines, Mirages have always fascinated me for five decades.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1306113994986590209

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

The drama for India was to leave the Mirage 2000 line closed. I'm quite sure a big purchase would have seen a complete transfer of the line in India. They let Dassault scrapped the line....

Imagine IAF now with 100+ more Mirage 2000-5 !!!

Indeed, India dropped the ball there. In early 2000s, if they had decided to replace all of the unreliable Mig-21s, 27s with Mirages they would have been EXTREMELY powerful right now. Flying 100-200 Mirage 2000s, fully upgraded with a smaller fleet of Rafale would have made them an extremely potent airforce right now. India had no shortage of experience in Mirage both flying and maintaining. For some reason they dropped the ball.

 

[Nomad40]

Trouble for Tejas right now is this : Not enough legs to do any deep penetration strike. Not enough selection of SoWs for ground attack role. Not enough legs to do a close air support. Limited support of BVRs to do a air superiority role. Lastly, an Israeli radar which does not integrate with good western missile likes Meteor. It limits Tejas a lot, basically to the point defence role, which it actually fulfills quite right. Better radar than Mig-21, modern airframe, very reliable engine so you can practice western style intense training, nimble aerodynamics.

tejas was never made for deep strikes or Air superiority.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

tejas was never made for deep strikes or Air superiority.

Proves my point, its not a multirole platform.

 

[Nomad40]

Proves my point, its not a multirole platform.

you can prove points all day but facts stay fact. Tejas is concepted and will be implemented and employed by the IAF as a multirole light fighter.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

AMCA is minimum 25 years away, if not more. India is still reinventing lots of wheels. Plus, Indian state owned companies need a proper project management for their development projects. As such their projects are late even before they are conceived. So, we will know what and how good it is, when it will arrive.

Given India's actual technology and expertise base, you should have a demonstrator in 3 years, and a prototype in 7 years, tops. In fact, didn't you move faster on the LCA with less than what you have now?

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

Given India's actual technology and expertise base, you should have a demonstrator in 3 years, and a prototype in 7 years, tops. In fact, didn't you move faster on the LCA with less than what you have now?

India has no background in designing any low observable fighter. None what so ever. India's AESA radar is very priliminary. India does not have any experience in integrating a TVC engine. India has not made its choice wrt engine in the AMCA design. India does not have a working opto-electrical sensor of its own or one finalized from say Israel. With no stealth engine, there is no low observable fighter. With no LPI radar, there is no low obserable fighter. With no opto-electrical sensor, there is no sensor fusion. With no TVC there is no supermanuverability. So, there is no fifth gen fighter.

All these things will take minimum 10-15 years to just develop. Then 5 years to setup manufacturing capabilities minimum because of government manufacturing. Then 10-15 years for limping from TD to IOC to FOC. Then another 30 years of manufacturing and finding new and messed up faults which you think were not even possible. Finally by the end of century, AMCA will be a usable plane, to fight wars, if any.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

India has no background in designing any low observable fighter. None what so ever. India's AESA radar is very priliminary. India does not have any experience in integrating a TVC engine. India has not made its choice wrt engine in the AMCA design. India does not have a working opto-electrical sensor of its own or one finalized from say Israel. With no stealth engine, there is no low observable fighter. With no LPI radar, there is no low obserable fighter. With no opto-electrical sensor, there is no sensor fusion. With no TVC there is no supermanuverability. So, there is no fifth gen fighter.

All these things will take minimum 10-15 years to just develop. Then 5 years to setup manufacturing capabilities minimum because of government manufacturing. Then 10-15 years for limping from TD to IOC to FOC. Then another 30 years of manufacturing and finding new and messed up faults which you think were not even possible. Finally by the end of century, AMCA will be a usable plane, to fight wars, if any.

If those are the standards, then only the US -- and maybe, big maybe, Europe -- can develop a true stealth fighter. But what about lowering the bar and working a 'next-gen' fighter using available off-the-shelf inputs (e.g., engine, radar, etc) with an indigenous airframe design, materials, and flight control system?

 

[maverick1977]

you can prove points all day but facts stay fact. Tejas is concepted and will be implemented and employed by the IAF as a multirole light fighter.

i agree with your statement..

any idea PAF will go for a long range heavy weight fighter like J16 till they get Azm?
one question will be is J16 better than J10C ?

 

[Signalian]

Indeed, India dropped the ball there. In early 2000s, if they had decided to replace all of the unreliable Mig-21s, 27s with Mirages they would have been EXTREMELY powerful right now. Flying 100-200 Mirage 2000s, fully upgraded with a smaller fleet of Rafale would have made them an extremely potent airforce right now. India had no shortage of experience in Mirage both flying and maintaining. For some reason they dropped the ball.

Interesting how you completely ignored 270 SU-30 MKI and consider IAF being extremely powerful/potent through induction of French aircrafts.

 

[Signalian]

i agree with your statement..

any idea PAF will go for a long range heavy weight fighter like J16 till they get Azm?
one question will be is J16 better than J10C ?

Longer range weapons if not the platform.