Rafale is not a Game Changer - Senior Analyst Shahzad Chaudhry

[Khan vilatey]

Well for starters, India is getting a BVRAAM with the longest no-escape zone of any commercially available AAM today. We don't know how much this NEZ actually is, but the fact that the Meteor is making its way as a standard AAM in UK, Germany, France, Sweden, and now South Korea, we should be weary.

Second, the Rafale is a superb strike asset. The Indians can carry out stand-off range strikes using ALCMs and guided, rocket-assisted PGBs (for low-value targets). Yes, we have the capability too, but the fact that India will have it means that our ground-based assets along the LoC are under threat.

Third, the Rafale brings an excellent ECM capability. Yes, the F-16s and JF-17s have ECM too, fair, but we have yet to deploy a fleet-wide AESA radar. So, our radars are at risk of getting jammed, while India's Rafales won't have as much trouble (thanks to the RBE2 AESA radar).

Fourth, India is going to get its 36 Rafales a bit sooner than the PAF will get its 50-odd JF-17 Block-IIIs. We are still waiting for the first 2 units. Never mind the fact that we have yet to integrate weapons to the Block-III.

Now, I get we hear a lot of self-assuring FB posts about PL-15 or other mystery Chinese AAMs with long ranges, but these aren't facts. These are guesses at best, and hopes at worst.

I agree. We don't have to get Rafale/Typhoon to match India's Rafale purchase. For the $$ India is spending on the Rafale, we can do much, much more. However, I fear we lack even that spending power.

In an earlier age, we might have been able to foot an F-16V upgrade, buy 1-2 F-16 Block-72 squadrons, expand the Block-III, and slot in AESA radars for Block-II and JF-17B.

We can probably get all this done for $9 b tops (i.e., a totally new fighter fleet), which isn't a lot if we split it across 5-10 years. It should be doable for a country our size, but we are soooooo criminally mismanaged, that even the minimum isn't possible.

True story, I heard a PAF person say, 'I don't think we need to upgrade Block-II or JF-17B with AESA radars..." Guy knows in his heart that a non-upgrade is BS, he's only talking it up because, sadly, it might be our only option.

this makes little sense dude meteor is an excellent weapon but the stats you are quilting are stats at best. The sad-10 and r-77 are used by all countries with Russian equipment. A ssd-10 is newer it can be assumed that it is comparable to aim-120c. The PL-15 is expected to run somewhere around 180-200 kms with data linkage with our awacs. Meaning in all reality jamming it would be extremely hard before it gets into its NEZ. So far the Indians have failed to jam the sd-10 or aim-120.

now jf-17 are not a strike platform but could be used in this role as demonstrated on feb-27 . H-4 , h-2 and raad provide this capability today.

this means that at 1/3 the cost we not only have the similar capabilities we will expand it more with block 3

Re: PL-15. I'll happily stand corrected with official specifications from the OEM, but otherwise, I'm going to take what our watchers say about it with a grain of salt.

Re: Block-I / Block-II, there's no ETA on when -- or if -- we'll upgrade them with AESA radars. It would make sense to upgrade them (e.g., the LKF601 is apparently easy to integrate to older JF-17 blocks), but no word on it by the PAF. The fact that we opted to take the JF-17B with KLJ-7V2 instead of LKF601E is a little concerning IMHO.

I think Klj-7a was similar in dimension to lfk601e which are both air cooled. I read this on the forum suggest you search. These can be fitted on our blk 2 and to this affect a radar factory was setup in Kamra and an integration facility. This was in the news.

In my opinion the real reason for delay in block 3 is the engine not Avionics or weapons. The Russians are offering their newest rd-93 m3 ( not sure about version) and the Chinese want us to use their ws-10a. The air force would have loved a western engine but settled on the next best thing the Russian engine. Chinese engines require overhaul too soon. Remember when the f-7pg engine overhaul facility was setup and they were able to double the overhaul interval. So this will be sorted soon.

Re: PL-15 ... I'd want a guarantee that the PAF can get an AAM with a comparable NEZ and ECCM as Meteor.

Re: AESA radars ... I'd rather we institute a fleet-wide AESA capability across all 188 JF-17s by 2030. This will give the PAF the flexibility to use each of its fighters in ECM-dense environments (and force India to commit very heavily to exert enough of an advantage over the PAF).

I read on this forum that the pl-15 was being integrated on the block 2 platform As this can be fired with assistance from our awacs. So think we will get this. As far as upgrades to block 3 and 2 is concerned I agree with you but think this as you suggested will be done in a phased approach.

kv

 

[baqai]

it worries me the kind of over confidence we have, it's classic case of "mine is bigger than yours" we desi's have, it's a formidable platform and one should not ignore the fact just because the other guy has it.

What J-10 might bring to the table is extra hardpoints, more payload capacity, longer loiter time and AESA after all it's a medium weight fighter.

 

[Pandora]

Frankly speaking, it is a good aircraft overall. The best aircraft to counter it is Gripen-E.

Thales and other french consortiums do have good products but albeit expensive. 36 is not a game changer in my opinion; it will be another 2-3 years before the maturity and experience of operations shows through. Given the threat from the north, they are more enticing for an engagement with the Chinese vs Pak right now.

Mate i never said it is not a good aircraft but does it provide an edge over any other 4th gen aircraft is highly doubtful. It does give India a capability boost considering they have no AESA radars and effective EW/ECM capability. Meteor missile provides it an edge over its adversaries but as event of 27th Feb dictate it is just a matter of who find who first in BVR combat. I still believe SU30 MKI is much more well rounded fighter and merely needs few tweaks to bring it upto par with su35. Unless a 5th Gen aircraft comes into play there is very little capability boost for either India or Pakistan no matter which aircraft they will induct in 4th Gen slab.

 

[Pandora]

Russians are decades bwhind in ECM and radar technology ..they cant even field an AESA even if they do i doubt the software (which is the essence of all modern radars) is no where near upto Par

The hupe of PESA that was artificial created (mini AWEC) was crushed in feburary

Mig 35 does have an AESA radar but SU 35 PESA radars provide much better range at cost of reduced EW protection. If needed PESA can easily be replaced by several off the shelf options. PESA has its own advantages when it comes to BVR combat. Only flaw in PESA is that it works at one frequency at any given time so is more susceptible to EW. So if someone has developed a library of its set frequencies PESA is as good as dead. PESA has advantage in countering stealth and has better chances in detecting compared to AESA.

Also i need to mention that a lot went wrong for India on 27th Feb not just Radars. As a matter of fact SU30 radar did lock onto our jets but got counter locked by F16s so had to disengage. They basically were not prepared and probably thought that Pakistan will never respond back. The confusion was caused bcz their comms were jammed not the radars. Without proper instructions there was CAOS in IAF ranks which led Abhi None Done to fly blindly in pursuit of our Jets and get blown out of sky.

 

[POPEYE-Sailor]

Does Jf-17 block 3 is capable to counter rafale 4++ and mig29 upgraded version ? in term of speed and radar detection ?

 

[My-Analogous]

Very comprehensive ? This was a milquetoast analysis.

He didn't mention the SPECTRA EW suite which makes the Rafale so dangerous, no mention of the stand off weapons and other munitions either.

Also, there will be a LOT more than 36 by the end of it.

He also dismissed the J-10 as some sort of transitory temporary system for the PLAAF..

and the J-20s will not be for export, PAF will get the J-31.

Don't teach father how to make sons. We broke your Godness MKI into pieces and InShaAllah, we will break your this idol as well. Your AESA don't have any advantages when it will be against JF17 block 3 (300 km VLBVR along with same range AESA Radar) to handle this missile

 

[Blacklight]

Does Jf-17 block 3 is capable to counter rafale 4++ and mig29 upgraded version ? in term of speed and radar detection ?

Without getting into specifics, keeping security in mind, Yes.

Btw Indian Rafale is F3R, F4 is not expected before 2023, for FAF.

 

[Blacklight]

To be frank, if the PAF had gotten the Rafale instead of India, there'd be a dozen threads saying, "how the Rafale gives the PAF the edge..." etc.

We should change our mindset. By downplaying India's moves, we are giving our government and military decision-makers a pass. No more passes.

If we're too broke to afford new weapons, we need to then take those not doing their job (of growing the economy) accountable.

Hosla rakho Jawan, 14 Aug door nahi!

 

[denel]

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/10/rafale-jets-wont-save-indias-air-force/

 

[Ultima Thule]

So far the Indians have failed to jam the sd-10 or aim-120.

We never fired SD-10 on 27 FEB as per PAF/ISPR, only we fired 2 AIM-120C5 which both hit their intended targets

I think Klj-7a was similar in dimension to lfk601e which are both air cooled

KLJ-7A AESA is bigger than LFK-601E (more transceiver modules) and its liquid cooled AESA than Air cooled LFK-601E

 

[Mamajama]

KLJ-7A AESA is bigger than LFK-601E (more transceiver modules) and its liquid cooled AESA than Air cooled LFK-601E

Bro I agree liquid cooled is way better AESA but more complicated.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Bro I agree liquid cooled is way better AESA but more complicated.

Yeah and we will need KLJ-7A because of RAFALE threats from India

 

[Mamajama]

Yeah and we will need KLJ-7A because of RAFALE threats from India

But easier to refit Block 1 with LFK I think right?

 

[Ultima Thule]

But easier to refit Block 1 with LFK I think right?

Yes, but in upper atmosphere air is thinner, i think it wont work properly???

 

[Mamajama]

Yes, but in upper atmosphere air is thinner, i think it wont work properly???

I'm not sure of that maybe others know more about this. I don't think USAF would order APG-83 AESA air cooled if it doesnt work at higher altitdues.