Rafale deal: India, France clinch offset deal; France agrees to invest 50% worth in related sectors

[ganesh623]

36 jets for 9 billion $ ?

There is no clarity on numbers of jets, neither the price, nor dates.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

IF it is 9 Billion for 36 jets we should just cancel the deal.

Its not worth it.

Just directly provide 5 billion to DRDO and private players to develop all necessary technologies.

 

[BATTLE FIELD]

36 jets cost more than pak full defence budget LOL

 

[anant_s]

@Abingdonboy @DrSomnath999
USD 4.5 billion figure doesn't justify just 36 numbers.
What i can understand here is that India wanted France to comply with existing laws and procedures (Offset specifically) and now that these seem to have been sorted out, we have a roadmap in place where orders can start growing.
Eventually we will see LCA program being taken care by HAL and Rafale by a private party.
I think we are going to see Rafale fleet close to 150 (atleast) in about a decade or so.

 

[Donatello]

Contract By december,.......................Within 3 to 4 years locals should be ready. Govt will make sure this deal doesn't get delays like Scorpene Sub deal.

So you think it will take more than 3-4 years for the full 36 jets to be delivered?

 

[SR-91]

So you think it will take more than 3-4 years for the full 36 jets to be delivered?

Contract will be signed by last quarter of this year or first quarter of the next. In contract it clearly states, India to get 1st squadron by or before 36 months. Ill use January as a tentative date, India will start receiving rafale's by 2018/2019. Around the same time locals will begin producing.

IF it is 9 Billion for 36 jets we should just cancel the deal.

Its not worth it.

Just directly provide 5 billion to DRDO and private players to develop all necessary technologies.

10 years down the road, this number will look like a joke. when Rafale deal was initiated, the whole deal for 126 Rafale were to cost around 10-12 Billion.

Feels like, we missed out right???

 

[[Bregs]]

so all the talks of getting su 35 and f 18 turns out to be media fed pressure on govt, Rafale is true multi role aircraft with terrain mapping and deep strike roles too along with air superiority so in sum a very dedicated multi purpose aircraft

 

[Mamsalaphala]

10 years down the road, this number will look like a joke. when Rafale deal was initiated, the whole deal for 126 Rafale were to cost around 10-12 Billion.

Feels like, we missed out right???

What we really missed out on, was the opportunity to substantially develop our Aerospace industry.

Everything else is just second best or third best options.

The report just says that the details of the 50% offset is finally decided. The Price negotiation and cost will be calculated NOW. So currently ANY figure that is floating around is pure Speculation, Opinions masquerading as Facts.

What we do know is that the final price will be lower than the original price submitted as per MMRCA tender.

 

[Abingdonboy]

That means it is going to be a BIG DEAL ; much more than 36 planes

Good point- it wouldn't take this long to sort out a govt-govt off the shelf purchase for such a small number of jets which means the following:

1) a lot more than 36 Rafales are going to be included in the deal AND the majority of them will be built in India (ask anyone in this industry and they will tell you Dassualt has already been scrambling for Indian partners to do so but this will all too often misreported as "offset" obligations).

2) The IAF is going to get the exact Rafale they wanted with all their specified kit included.


The ACM himself said, about a week ago, they need an additional 6 SQNs of Rafales or a/c like it and no airforce of this calibre are going to induct 2 different fighters for the same exact role especially not when one type only has 36 units in service. Anyone who thinks this is going to be the final number of Rafales in IAF service are being intentionally asinine. 36 jets isn't even enough for 2 SQNs with war reserves (and the IAF always has fighter war reserves).

Contract will be signed by last quarter of this year or first quarter of the next. In contract it clearly states, India to get 1st squadron by or before 36 months. Ill use January as a tentative date, India will start receiving rafale's by 2018/2019. Around the same time locals will begin producing.

Dassualt have already said they will ramp-up production if they get an order from India so the IAF is likely to get their first jets much earlier than 36 months especially as the Egyptian Air Force is already taking delivery of theirs (meaning there isn't such a huge backlog).

so all the talks of getting su 35 and f 18 turns out to be media fed pressure on govt, Rafale is true multi role aircraft with terrain mapping and deep strike roles too along with air superiority so in sum a very dedicated multi purpose aircraft

The Su-35 drama was all 100% BS, the IAF has never shown even a modicum of interest in it. The F-18 talk was all fuelled by the ignorant (or paid off) media- they prompted the Boeing executive to make those remarks about F-18s built in India but what he really was serious about was Chinooks and Apaches being built in India. He simply couldn't rule his company out from any future deals with the IAF for F-18s because that would be beyond stupid on his part.


The media is making a massive fuss about the "MMRCA 2.0" and Gripen, EFT, F-18, F-16 and MiG-35 all being back in the running for 90+ jets? But isn't it funny how there has been no such RFI? No manufacturer will actually state " we are re-submitting our bid for the IAF"? The fact is that follow on 90 jets talk is about this number of Rafales being built in India. The DM, ACM and Dassualt CEO have all alluded to this. Why you would take the word of the Indian media over these guys is beyond me....

What we really missed out on, was the opportunity to substantially develop our Aerospace industry.

Everything else is just second best or third best options.

The report just says that the details of the 50% offset is finally decided. The Price negotiation and cost will be calculated NOW. So currently ANY figure that is floating around is pure Speculation, Opinions masquerading as Facts.

See, this is the media being intentionally dishonest. The DM instructed the CNC to initiate contract finalisation talks in the September DAC meeting based on Dassault and the MoD/CNC coming to agreeable terms on the price and offset issues. The media is not only behind the curve but they are intentionally (it seems) propagating misinformation.

Again, look at the irrefutable FACTS, do not base your beliefs on the Indian media's "analysis".

 

[Mamsalaphala]

See, this is the media being intentionally dishonest. The DM instructed the CNC to initiate contract finalisation talks in the September DAC meeting based on Dassault and the MoD/CNC coming to agreeable terms on the price and offset issues. The media is not only behind the curve but they are intentionally (it seems) propagating misinformation.

Again, look at the irrefutable FACTS, do not base your beliefs on the Indian media's "analysis".

Its probably misunderstanding and a bit of propaganda.

IAF is seeking latest tech Rafale with latest weapons which was not part of the original deal. Second the Life Cycle cost can only be calculated AFTER the offset is implemented and the cost of production in India is known.

So factually the media is correct only its ambiguously worded to promote confusion. This is what the report says,

".....From this will flow the main negotiations on final price, lifecycle costs and other details related to the aircraft itself.... "

 

[anant_s]

Good point- it wouldn't take this long to sort out a govt-govt off the shelf purchase for such a small number of jets which means the following:

1) a lot more than 36 Rafales are going to be included in the deal AND the majority of them will be built in India (ask anyone in this industry and they will tell you Dassualt has already been scrambling for Indian partners to do so but this will all too often misreported as "offset" obligations).

2) The IAF is going to get the exact Rafale they wanted with all their specified kit included.


The ACM himself said, about a week ago, they need an additional 6 SQNs of Rafales or a/c like it and no airforce of this calibre are going to induct 2 different fighters for the same exact role especially not when one type only has 36 units in service. Anyone who thinks this is going to be the final number of Rafales in IAF service are being intentionally asinine. 36 jets isn't even enough for 2 SQNs with war reserves (and the IAF always has fighter war reserves).


Dassualt have already said they will ramp-up production if they get an order from India so the IAF is likely to get their first jets much earlier than 36 months especially as the Egyptian Air Force is already taking delivery of theirs (meaning there isn't such a huge backlog).


The Su-35 drama was all 100% BS, the IAF has never shown even a modicum of interest in it. The F-18 talk was all fuelled by the ignorant (or paid off) media- they prompted the Boeing executive to make those remarks about F-18s built in India but what he really was serious about was Chinooks and Apaches being built in India. He simply couldn't rule his company out from any future deals with the IAF for F-18s because that would be beyond stupid on his part.


The media is making a massive fuss about the "MMRCA 2.0" and Gripen, EFT, F-18, F-16 and MiG-35 all being back in the running for 90+ jets? But isn't it funny how there has been no such RFI? No manufacturer will actually state " we are re-submitting our bid for the IAF"? The fact is that follow on 90 jets talk is about this number of Rafales being built in India. The DM, ACM and Dassualt CEO have all alluded to this. Why you would take the word of the Indian media over these guys is beyond me....


See, this is the media being intentionally dishonest. The DM instructed the CNC to initiate contract finalisation talks in the September DAC meeting based on Dassault and the MoD/CNC coming to agreeable terms on the price and offset issues. The media is not only behind the curve but they are intentionally (it seems) propagating misinformation.

Again, look at the irrefutable FACTS, do not base your beliefs on the Indian media's "analysis".

No competent airforce in world would want more than 1 type of Aircraft for a specific role. to think a different imported hardware would be purchased just to make up numbers is really ridiculous.
sections of media often forget that IAF took a lot of time and efforts to evaluate contenders and therefore even if budgetary constraints exist, Rafales would come in smaller tranches but eventually numbers that IAF projected would be made up.

 

[Abingdonboy]

No competent airforce in world would want more than 1 type of Aircraft for a specific role. to think a different imported hardware would be purchased just to make up numbers is really ridiculous.

Exactly right, no "defence journalist" worth their salt would even contemplate such a scenario, it is beyond absurd to even mention and yet multiple Indian sites (including NDTV for god's sake) have actually been projecting 36 Rafales + 90 F-18 Super Hornets as the future of the IAF!!!! What is this, Ace Combat 6?

This is just another level of stupid and it makes me think that professionals cannot be this asinine so there has got to be vested interests pulling the strings somewhere.

 

[Donatello]

Contract will be signed by last quarter of this year or first quarter of the next. In contract it clearly states, India to get 1st squadron by or before 36 months. Ill use January as a tentative date, India will start receiving rafale's by 2018/2019. Around the same time locals will begin producing.

So you are saying the local offset will happen in 2019? Isn't that gonna delay the 2nd batch of 18 jets?

 

[NHUDA]

Contract will be signed by last quarter of this year or first quarter of the next. In contract it clearly states, India to get 1st squadron by or before 36 months. Ill use January as a tentative date, India will start receiving rafale's by 2018/2019. Around the same time locals will begin producing.

First Thr is NO Local Production (Make In India) Involved anymore (Nor any TOT) !

Dassault already have now 24 Jets order EACH from Qatar & Egypt with Option to add 12 More (Each) ... Plus they are still Producing French (AF & Navcy) Order .. u think they will roll out 6 Each year for India only when the Production rate in TOTAL is 11-12 Planes a year ! ?

So you are saying the local offset will happen in 2019? Isn't that gonna delay the 2nd batch of 18 jets?

Local Offset does not mean a Production Line in India for Rafale .. All Jets will be built in Dassault Current Production Line ... Offset Means .. Dassault will Invest Half of the Revenue amount back in India in Multiple Related sectors (Aero-Space, Software Systems, Parts Manufacturing Plants for thr VARIOUS products etc.)

Given the Past Track Record .. signing of Agreement is still a little bit far to predict ... A lot depend on WHat Dassault Commercial Offer says .. If they Stay within 9 Billion $ Range ... things would speed up faster .. but if they increase the cost further a Billion or Two (Owing to agreeing for 50% Offset, More than One Air Base, Additional Armament Pairing & couple of other Customized Requirements) things will again receive a set-back & French Govt & Indian Govt (as it is a G2G agreement) will try to bridge the gap between Budgeted Price & asked Price !

Exactly right, no "defence journalist" worth their salt would even contemplate such a scenario, it is beyond absurd to even mention and yet multiple Indian sites (including NDTV for god's sake) have actually been projecting 36 Rafales + 90 F-18 Super Hornets as the future of the IAF!!!! What is this, Ace Combat 6?

This is just another level of stupid and it makes me think that professionals cannot be this asinine so there has got to be vested interests pulling the strings somewhere.

I agree it makes NO sense to go for ANYOTHER type of fighter Plane other thn Rafale .... The Reason of this speculation is here .. Frikking Newspaper & thr "Sources"

'Make in India' for 90 medium combat jets - The Times of India

Henceforth this means .. the deal with French is Not Finalized in all aspects yet & would keep alot of Options (ToT, Make in India, Additional Option to Buy 90) etc. open !

But the real Culprit is the People (negotiation team) who are involved in it .... Why are they Delaying something Bound to Happen .. for sure it is GOI (NaMO) who said we r going to Buy 36 Jets & thts it .. & thn comes the advice of Buying 100s of Tejas . the Ambiguity & hype & delays in closure of agreements is the core reason for this Misquoting & Speculation !

 

[Abingdonboy]

So you are saying the local offset will happen in 2019? Isn't that gonna delay the 2nd batch of 18 jets?

Local offsets will begin within the first 18 months of contract signature.

But the real Culprit is the People (negotiation team) who are involved in it .... Why are they Delaying something Bound to Happen

They are doing their job, with the PMO personally monitoring this purchase it is certain they are working flat out but it is clear they are working to extract the best possible deal for the IAF/India and thus things are taking their time. This isn't a Qatar to Egypt kind of deal, it is FAR more complex than that and these things take time.

. & thn comes the advice of Buying 100s of Tejas .

BS media spin. The LCAs were coming regardless, how they factor into the Rafale purchase is beyond me.

I agree it makes NO sense to go for ANYOTHER type of fighter Plane other thn Rafale .... The Reason of this speculation is here .. Frikking Newspaper & thr "Sources"

'Make in India' for 90 medium combat jets - The Times of India

Notice no such RFI has been issued. This news relates purely to the 90 jets (Rafales) to be built in India but certain media outlets are too ill-informed to read into this news OR have very specific vested interests they need to promote.