Rafale deal in its final stages: IAF chief Raha

[Ind4Ever]

100% certain, the IAF will be operating more than 100 Rafales, of this I have no doubt. Anything below 80-90 is not viable and the MoD will know this.

Am telling you the same line again !!! How do we even afford this jet in 80 or 200 numbers ? We should / go for cheaper sukois like PAKFA ! We lack BVR against 5th gen fighter but we dont have to buy 4th gen fighter for 150 mil each !!!

 

[GURU DUTT]

Am telling you the same line again !!! How do we even afford this jet in 80 or 200 numbers ? We should / go for cheaper sukois like PAKFA ! We lack BVR against 5th gen fighter but we dont have to buy 4th gen fighter for 150 mil each !!!

no explanantion is going to work saeen ji 36 now are coming but still there is a ? let them come first real game will unflod after the 36th Rafale will land on indian air strip till then every thing is just a specualtion

 

[Ind4Ever]

100% certain, the IAF will be operating more than 100 Rafales, of this I have no doubt. Anything below 80-90 is not viable and the MoD will know this.

Anything more than 50 rafale rafale is not affordable for us .We already have 3 fighter programs which needs lots of funds just to make it fly . If we do what you thinking then we are fukd !!!

no explanantion is going to work saeen ji 36 now are coming but still there is a ? let them come first real game will unflod after the 36th Rafale will land on indian air strip till then every thing is just a specualtion

True ... We should come down to earth and smell the coffee . We can't just throw away some 25 billion dollars for just 120 fighter jets. Am sure sense have prevailed with our new gov. We already spent millions just to upgrade 50 mirrage to extend its life for another 20 years - so 36+18 rafale should be our need to operate both for same missions. Let french start new production line in India and let them start exports from India if they want new deals

 

[Abingdonboy]

Am telling you the same line again !!! How do we even afford this jet in 80 or 200 numbers ?

We can't just throw away some 25 billion dollars for just 120 fighter jets

we dont have to buy 4th gen fighter for 150 mil each !!!

See this is based on on false perceptions mate, you have bought into the BS the media (on behalf of God knows who) has spun. The deal was NEVER worth $25BN and certainly won't be today.

Look at the latest rumours- $5BN for 36= <$150 (around $140) million each.

And please read below (i had given this answer to @GURU DUTT a few days back) to understand why even that (aprox) $140 million figure is misleading and not at all representative of the Rafale's actual unit cost:

Dividing $5bn by 36 to get your unit price of 139 USD (not Euros bro) is a far too simplistic and flawed method of calculating the actual unit cost of the Rafales being sold to India. As I've explained before, such a deal will include the cost of a large amount of spares, training, simulators, integrating Indian (customer) specific equipment (like LITENING LDPs and HMDS)weapons, support packages, warrantees, stetting up requisite ground infrastructure in India etc etc. These are mammoth costs but will only be incurred the once, it will be far more sensible to calculate the unit cost of Rafales being sold to India when India orders follow-on units (even then only if they are coming from France, if they are being built in India which is more likely then it will be difficult to compare like for like).


And the MiG-35 is a dead horse, they aren't even selling it to their own forces or anyone else- the IAF aren't going for it end of story.


+it's funny how the price keeps dropping, before it was reported India will get 36 for $10BN, then $8BN now only $5BN.



Let's wait and see the true figure and what comes with the package.

And if you think Super Su-30MKIs (who are not as capable as the Rafale in strike missions) will be that much more affordable you are dreaming my friend. This is something I have been trying to get to the bottom of for some time and from what I can piece together the Russians are now quoting the IAF >$110 million per Su-30MKI with Super upgrades and Bhramos-A capability. This for a fighter that will spend more time on the ground AND cost more per flight hour to maintain than the Rafale.

The Rafale is not this super expensive and unaffordable product some would have you believe.

Similarly the FGFA (the IAF will never get the PAK-FA), by virtue of being a 5th gen platform (and a Russian one at that) will cost VASTLY more to operate than the Rafale and will require eye-watering amounts of maintenance.

so 36+18 rafale should be our need to operate both for same missions

This is FAR too few. My friend, do you understand the concept of Economies of Scale? The IAF is the 4th largest (and growing) airforce in the world, it would be cost-prohibitive to operate such few jets and the IAF are not entertaining any such nonsense, they want (and will get) 100+ Rafales, this much is certain. 54 jets is FAR too few.

Let french start new production line in India

This is exactly what is being discussed as we speak.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Ind4Ever :Welcome back brother.. good to see you..
36 rafales + 90 MMRCA make in India makes 126 anyways.. the thing is follow on 18 flyaway + 45 more under MII will come much later or perhaps the major portion follow on may be directly from france also in case of urgency or cost benefit or both..
A sweetener deal is the scorpene follow on 3 in numbers..
All this is based on what Prasun K Sengupta is quoting in his blog..
BTW 126/189 this number is one thing which @Abingdonboy had quoted from the very beginning..

And bro any more news on Su35Stealth version.. Hope you got some inside stuff about that..

 

[Abingdonboy]

And bro any more news on Su35Stealth version.. Hope you got some inside stuff about that..

I have not had any knowledge of this program bro, if it is in the same shape as the rest of the proposed Russian mil projects (especially the aviation ones) then god help it.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Pakistanis should stop trying to come inside India and concentrate on going to Mars then.

People follows Holy Prophet and his life style. They didn't allow idols in kaaba (makkah). They broke all idols and they didn't allow this religion there. This is what happened .... And many Muslims now believe in ghazwa e hind and holy war there. That's why you see new maps and desire of war. .. Due to extreme religion followers like Zarvan & others

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I have not had any knowledge of this program bro, if it is in the same shape as the rest of the proposed Russian mil projects (especially the aviation ones) then god help it.

What do you make out of Rostec requesting India to help? You think anything interesting could work out there? You looking forward to NaMo visit to Russia with some scope of cashing in some good deals?

BTW is there a scope that say India can get some more customisation in MKIs too to carry French Rafale weapons.. Say like meteor missile in future.. You know say commonality of armaments across all platforms.. Is that possible..

 

[Abingdonboy]

What do you make out of Rostec requesting India to help?

It is to be excepted really, they are in quite a bind and need sugar daddy's with deep pockets to help them out, I don't particularly think it is India's job to be doing so but I am sure strategic compulsions (vis a vis China)will mean India does its bit to help Russia.

You think anything interesting could work out there?You looking forward to NaMo visit to Russia with some scope of cashing in some good deals?

Perhaps but I would be more pleased to see the Russians fulfil their current obligations to India (FGFA, Super Su upgrades, MRTA etc) rather than anything new and headline-grabbing coming of the visit. I am not expecting much of the visit of the PM to Russia to be honest, but then I wasn't expecting the Rafale deal when he visited Paris so, who knows? Modi certainly has his dynamic moments.

BTW is there a scope that say India can get some more customisation in MKIs too to carry French Rafale weapons.. Say like meteor missile in future.. You know say commonality of armaments across all platforms.. Is that possible..

It is possible bro and the IAF may look into this but French weapons are very costly, in the long term it will be more important to integrate Indian made weaponry on India's aviation assets.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

It is to be excepted really, they are in quite a bind and need sugar daddy's with deep pockets to help them out, I don't particularly think it is India's job to be doing so but I am sure strategic compulsions (vis a vis China)will mean India does its bit to help Russia.



Perhaps but I would be more pleased to see the Russians fulfil their current obligations to India (FGFA, Super Su upgrades, MRTA etc) rather than anything new and headline-grabbing coming of the visit. I am not expecting much of the visit of the PM to Russia to be honest, but then I wasn't expecting the Rafale deal when he visited Paris so, who knows? Modi certainly has his dynamic moments.



It is possible bro and the IAF may look into this but French weapons are very costly, in the long term it will be more important to integrate Indian made weaponry on India's aviation assets.

You know @halloweene quoted in another blog that 36 rafale deal is not the important thing but FCAS tech
His exact quote
"i cannot say anything about the deal. But the important part isn't, afaik Rafale, but FCAS technology"

You heard anything on this... if what he says is true then it seems FCAS tech is directly linked to our Aura project
@halloweene - Care to say few words on this..

 

[Ind4Ever]

See this is based on on false perceptions mate, you have bought into the BS the media (on behalf of God knows who) has spun. The deal was NEVER worth $25BN and certainly won't be today.

Look at the latest rumours- $5BN for 36= <$150 (around $140) million each.

And please read below (i had given this answer to @GURU DUTT a few days back) to understand why even that (aprox) $140 million figure is misleading and not at all representative of the Rafale's actual unit cost:

The old(now scrapped), MMRCA Rafale deal — came to about $300 million, taking into account the estimates of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Rafale this includes ToT. NOTE this include TOT . But since we have ordered 36 directly from france the rate just gone down by 25%(on jet alone) So with weapons and training Rafale cost remained the same but overall the price would be around 200$ in mill . The recently announced Qatari order saw a comparable cost of $290 million per aircraft for 36-40 3 squadrons. (Note : No ToT but Aircraft weapons training and maintenance) Our objective was to bring down the cost from 300$ to 220$ which we failed so deal collapsed as we can't afford it(inside story of failed negotiation) .

Now if we are planning to buy 80-150 rafale as you said it should come with ToT? and production line tranfered to India? . Now again can we afford to spent 250-300 mill on Rafale while french wont give up a single paisa let alone a $ ? or better order 5th gen fighters from Russia ? The same fighter will be modified for our future air superiority role called FGFA ... Isnt it a good and a better sane option ? Your price 150 or 140 is for the jet alone with 25% discount(so called discount) but another 60-70 million as weapons spares life cycle cost etc ? Even for PakFa the overall cost is estimated to 150 mill -160 . A generation leap from rafale ! Let's wait for the 36 deal be signed and lets see what is the pricing we got !

And if you think Super Su-30MKIs (who are not as capable as the Rafale in strike missions) will be that much more affordable you are dreaming my friend. This is something I have been trying to get to the bottom of for some time and from what I can piece together the Russians are now quoting the IAF >$110 million per Su-30MKI with Super upgrades and Brahmos-A capability. This for a fighter that will spend more time on the ground AND cost more per flight hour to maintain than the Rafale.

Brother Super Sukois are miles away from 2015 so its not our MMRCA replacement at all ! . if we had 1 squadron Super skois by 2018 then it will be a record break for HAL . And India cant afford to wait for Super upgrade . The main problem propped up is 5th gen fighters of the chinese .By 2017-18 PLAAF will get it first squadron . And our Su30 lacks BVR against stealth fighter thanks to its huge RCS . So I guess we will go for PakFa as some leaks says that too while we get Rafale coming in mid way another batch will be ordered as well once we make up the funds for it .But it's gonna be smaller than your quote !

The Rafale is not this super expensive and unaffordable product some would have you believe.

Similarly the FGFA (the IAF will never get the PAK-FA), by virtue of being a 5th gen platform (and a Russian one at that) will cost VASTLY more to operate than the Rafale and will require eye-watering amounts of maintenance.

FGFA is our last hope for 5th gen future front line line fighter , Even if it cost a ton India will go for it because its Next gen unlike rafale is 4th gen fighter.And IAF clearly said we should have RAFALE at any cost.. But said if not rafale than any other multi role fighter . facts being told IAF's first preference was EF later it was shot down by political leadership. Funny part is that Rafale got selected as L1 ? SERIOUSLY ?

This is FAR too few. My friend, do you understand the concept of Economies of Scale? The IAF is the 4th largest (and growing) air force in the world, it would be cost-prohibitive to operate such few jets and the IAF are not entertaining any such nonsense, they want (and will get) 100+ Rafales, this much is certain. 54 jets is FAR too few.

This is exactly what is being discussed as we speak.

Bro my counter question to My friend, do you understand the concept of Economies of Scale?

You are taking about maintanence night economically to operate 50 Rafale or 36 . Am asking you from where will you get money to BUY 150 or 180 jets at insane price tag ? Buying 180 white elephant and operating it is more costly than doing the same with 36-50 rafale !!!

@Ind4Ever :Welcome back brother.. good to see you..
36 rafales + 90 MMRCA make in India makes 126 anyways.. the thing is follow on 18 flyaway + 45 more under MII will come much later or perhaps the major portion follow on may be directly from france also in case of urgency or cost benefit or both..
A sweetener deal is the scorpene follow on 3 in numbers..
All this is based on what Prasun K Sengupta is quoting in his blog..
BTW 126/189 this number is one thing which @Abingdonboy had quoted from the very beginning..

And bro any more news on Su35Stealth version.. Hope you got some inside stuff about that..

Hello bhai .. Am fine man how are u We again end up with MMRCA lol

Su35S is supposed to be extension of Super Sukoi project if MMRCA collapsed . Now since we have PakFa and its capabilities are very promising . Modi trip to russia might see Rafale like fast track deal for PakFa ! I dont think we will just give in to insane price tag of french

 

[PARIKRAMA]

T The recently announced Qatari order saw a comparable cost of $290 million per aircraft for 36-40 3 squadrons. (Note : No ToT but Aircraft weapons training and maintenance) Our objective was to bring down the cost from 300$ to 220$ which we failed so deal collapsed as we can't afford it(inside story of failed negotiation) .

Yes we end up again in MMRCA.. lol
BTW i may give you another angle in price..
India, France Inter-Governmental Agreement on Rafale Purchase Likely Next Week

India, France Inter-Governmental Agreement on Rafale Purchase Likely Next Week
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Saturday, August 29, 2015 @ 10:28 AM

France and India are expected to sign an inter-governmental agreement on the purchase of the Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft next week.

French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is expected to arrive in Delhi August 31 and will hold talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar before signing the inter-governmental agreement on Tuesday, various media reported.


The inter-governmental agreement does not mean that the deal is through. The two sides still have to conclude a commercial contract for the deal to get underway.

Defenseworld.net reported last week that that the French Defence Minister was expected in Delhi in the week starting August 31 to sign an agreement on the Rafale deal.

In April, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande agreed to fast-track the Rafale procurement by buying 36 French-built Rafale fighters with no manufacturing in India.

Unnamed sources quoted in the Indian media said that talks were still on with the negotiating committee considering the 50 per cent offset requirements, as well as the arms and equipment the fighters will be fitted with.

The unit price of the 36 Rafale aircraft was 25 percent higher than the $200-million price tag offered to the Indian prime minister during his April visit to France, the Times of India reported yesterday.

Sources quoted in the French media reported that higher price was because the Indian Air Force (IAF) was asking for a different set of armaments than what was proposed under the earlier RFP route and that Indian wanted offsets which would push up the final cost.


**********************************************

Thus its another IGA and not a contract. BUT IGA means a done deal off course..
The cost negotiations is still perhaps a point of discussion
The price of Rafale offered is $ 200 million (same as FAF as LCC/40 years) + 25% which is US$ 250 million a plane (for customization and perhaps 50% Indian offsets).

Interestingly this article gives cost as
36x250 = $9Bn with 50% offset meaning 4.5 Bn investment back into India

Now a fellow blogger (courtesy picdelamirand) explains this number as
$ 250 millions is with life cycle cost for 40 years.
You will have 160 Millions for life cycle cost, on which $125 Million will be done by Indian so the 50% offset is fulfiled.
The possible payment will be like that:
300 Millions in 2017
1 Billion in 2018
1 Billion in 2019
1 Billion in 2020
400 Millions in 2021
And 270 Millions by Years for Operational costs after 2021 until 2060.
I said 160 Millions for life cycle cost so it remain 90 Millions for the Rafale but fly away cost is 73 Millions so there is 17 Millions for weapons. It's not a lot but you already purchase a lot of MICA with the upgrade of Mirage so you don't need a lot because you want to adapt russian weapons.

Thus the 5Bn dollar thing went up suddenly in a new article as 9Bn but still the price explaination by pic seems legible

@Abingdonboy i am sure you may say better wait for final signing to know all this numbers !!!

 

[nForce]

People follows Holy Prophet and his life style. They didn't allow idols in kaaba (makkah). They broke all idols and they didn't allow this religion there. This is what happened .... And many Muslims now believe in ghazwa e hind and holy war there. That's why you see new maps and desire of war. .. Due to extreme religion followers like Zarvan & others

Don't just talk. Try to realize your desires too.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Yes we end up again in MMRCA.. lol
BTW i may give you another angle in price..
India, France Inter-Governmental Agreement on Rafale Purchase Likely Next Week

India, France Inter-Governmental Agreement on Rafale Purchase Likely Next Week
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Saturday, August 29, 2015 @ 10:28 AM

France and India are expected to sign an inter-governmental agreement on the purchase of the Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft next week.

French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is expected to arrive in Delhi August 31 and will hold talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar before signing the inter-governmental agreement on Tuesday, various media reported.


The inter-governmental agreement does not mean that the deal is through. The two sides still have to conclude a commercial contract for the deal to get underway.

Defenseworld.net reported last week that that the French Defence Minister was expected in Delhi in the week starting August 31 to sign an agreement on the Rafale deal.

In April, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande agreed to fast-track the Rafale procurement by buying 36 French-built Rafale fighters with no manufacturing in India.

Unnamed sources quoted in the Indian media said that talks were still on with the negotiating committee considering the 50 per cent offset requirements, as well as the arms and equipment the fighters will be fitted with.

The unit price of the 36 Rafale aircraft was 25 percent higher than the $200-million price tag offered to the Indian prime minister during his April visit to France, the Times of India reported yesterday.

Sources quoted in the French media reported that higher price was because the Indian Air Force (IAF) was asking for a different set of armaments than what was proposed under the earlier RFP route and that Indian wanted offsets which would push up the final cost.


**********************************************

Thus its another IGA and not a contract. BUT IGA means a done deal off course..
The cost negotiations is still perhaps a point of discussion
The price of Rafale offered is $ 200 million (same as FAF as LCC/40 years) + 25% which is US$ 250 million a plane (for customization and perhaps 50% Indian offsets).

Interestingly this article gives cost as
36x250 = $9Bn with 50% offset meaning 4.5 Bn investment back into India

Now a fellow blogger (courtesy picdelamirand) explains this number as
$ 250 millions is with life cycle cost for 40 years.
You will have 160 Millions for life cycle cost, on which $125 Million will be done by Indian so the 50% offset is fulfiled.
The possible payment will be like that:
300 Millions in 2017
1 Billion in 2018
1 Billion in 2019
1 Billion in 2020
400 Millions in 2021
And 270 Millions by Years for Operational costs after 2021 until 2060.
I said 160 Millions for life cycle cost so it remain 90 Millions for the Rafale but fly away cost is 73 Millions so there is 17 Millions for weapons. It's not a lot but you already purchase a lot of MICA with the upgrade of Mirage so you don't need a lot because you want to adapt russian weapons.

Thus the 5Bn dollar thing went up suddenly in a new article as 9Bn but still the price explaination by pic seems legible

@Abingdonboy i am sure you may say better wait for final signing to know all this numbers !!!

nice one bro .... Lets see what we decide on |PakFa during PM's russia visit

 

[PARIKRAMA]

nice one bro .... Lets see what we decide on |PakFa during PM's russia visit

I personally see limited progress unless India takes the MKI route for Pakfa program.. get 3 sqds now whatever Russia produces uptill HAL starts Pakfa/to FGFA program serial production.. But this requires a strategic decision making as gestation period for whole FGFA is pretty long close to 96 months and with added delays add another 12 months.. so 8-9 years.. Thus it makes sense to get some 3 squadrons directly..
BTW i am very interested in the new toy of PAKFA - The anti radiation mach 3.5 missile.. Kh-58UShK.. I am interested to see if we can integrate this missile to other platforms besides PAKFA.. The stats looks impressive ...

"weighs 650 kg with a warhead weight of 149 kg, is 4.19 m long, has a wingspan of 0.8 m, and a diameter of 0.38 m. The Kh-58UShK’s maximum speed is 4,200 km/h and it can be launched at aircraft speeds of Mach 0.47-1.5. It can also be launched at altitudes between 20-20,000 m, providing a maximum range varying between 76-245 km. The minimum range is 10-12 km, this at a launch height of 200 m. "

any idea what anti radiation missile we have in IAF currently? Anything like that in FAF (france)? rafales?