Questions about Butt/Khawaja clan and Kashmiri descendants in Pakistan

[Prawnsroo]

This is such an informative thread and I still see myself as a newbie but I am very impressed by the knowledge people have projected on this thread about historical links of different clans.

what do you want to prove with this silly post...
are you not satisfied as being a Muslim and a Pakistan..?
does being butt or Khawaja makes you special above others...?
let's take a test :
1. Are you and your family extremely fat to the busting point ....then you can be butt......? But then all other people who are fat , what about them....are they butt too......
2.are you fairer then usual people .... ?They say that Khawaja and butt have lighter skin tone .... But I have seen butts and Khawaja's who have very brown and black complexion too , now what would you say.....?

3. Do you eat everything in front of you , including bones of your chicken ? Then you definitely are a butt .... Not sure about Khawaja ....

nothing would make you superior ,
neither your cast , neither your house ,neither your colour ....
only best among you is who has best Taqwa....
we don't need this shit in Pakistan....this cast system we have adopted from hindu's making us believing some casts are higher and better then the other...

I would repeat the first line to reply to your post.

What do you wish to prove by this silly post?

We are muslim but we have another identity too - stop dictating us what we should or shouldn't be discussing.

 

[Orakzai]

Well some of the "older" Punjabi tribes would be the likes of Sial (tahir ul qadri), Arain (zia ul haq), Kamboh (Ejaz Chaudhary - PTI president Punjab), Janjua Rajputs (Boxer Amir Khan) et cetera. Ultimately the question who are the "real Punjabi" has no real answer since all Punjabis migrated to the land of the five rivers at some point. Residing in this geographic location and speaking the language automatically makes one a Punjabi, especially the second and third generations.



I agree. Far too often I have noticed some Pakistanis get really touchy on topics relating to history, culture, tribes so forth. If the discussion is civil and no implications of superiority are made then all we are doing is learning about each others backgrounds and better understanding our fellow countrymen. I have learnt a lot about Pashtuns, Balochis and other Pakistani groups on this forum and see no reason why such discussion should be discouraged.

True true, people need to open their mind to healthy and informative discussions but again there are some people who take a piss out of everything.

 

[Manidabest]

To my understanding are Arain (Mian, Chaudhary) similar to Khawaja's? I thought both casts were land owners (meaning farmers). Btw I'm Arain.

pls dont do that butts khawajas are different tribe and Arrain is totall different pls dont mix us with Kashmiris thats what nawaz sharif is trying to confuse people of punjab by adding mian with his name ...Mian is a title mostly found in Arains and its origin is with Arrain family of Baghbanpurra Lahore where the Arrain family built shalamar garden and presented to emperor Shah Jahan and he gave the title to the head of the family.

True true, people need to open their mind to healthy and informative discussions but again there are some people who take a piss out of everything.

true

 

[The Diplomat]

pls dont do that butts khawajas are different tribe and Arrain is totall different pls dont mix us with Kashmiris thats what nawaz sharif is trying to confuse people of punjab by adding mian with his name ...Mian is a title mostly found in Arains and its origin is with Arrain family of Baghbanpurra Lahore where the Arrain family built shalamar garden and presented to emperor Shah Jahan and he gave the title to the head of the family.

Right, that makes more sence now. By the way; I didn't say Butts and Khawajas were similar.
Can you also tell me if Arain cast originates from the Walled City (Androon Shehr). I thought that the originating neighborhoods for Arain and Khawajas were very close to each other.
And don't Arain and Khawajas have farming backgrounds?

 

[Kashmiri Pandit]

Hey everybody, I got some questions about my heritage.

I'm of Pakistani descent and my family have Kashmiri ancestry, our forefathers migrated from Kashmir (around Sringar) to rural North Punjab near Sialkot & Gujranwala and later my grandparents branched out to other cities across Pakistan. We belong to the Butt clan but also use Khawaja as a our last name or title, now the thing is I'm confused about whether Khawajas and Butts are the same clan or we're 2 different clans.

From what I've read, most Kashmiris settled in Punjab adopted 'Butt' as their lastname as a collective identifier of their Kashmiri heritage even if they didn't actually belong to the Butt clan. Pretty much all people with the last name Butt also use Khawaja as a last name. All the men in my family get refered to as 'Butt saabs" in Pakistan however my father says we're actually Khawajas and Butt was just a collective name.

Is there a difference between the two clans? Did they descend from two different groups or castes in Kashmir? All I know is that my Great Great-Grandfathers and their fathers were rice sellers in Kashmir before settling across the near the Punjab-Jammu border and getting involved in business, so what clan or caste might we be? It is quite amazing how my family and ancestors manage to branch out across Pakistan and the world and get an education, now we have nothing to do with farming or agriculture though I do have some extended relatives left in Upper Punjab who haven't changed at all.

If there are any Butts/Khawajas on here, what do you know about the clan?

Are Muslim Butts and Pandit Bhats , From same descendants or are they different ?

 

[Pakistani E]

So my ancestors adopted the khawaja title after converting to Islam by Sufi saints? That makes sense, so are Kashmiri Khawajas and Butts from the trading community? cause my ancestors were businessmen and merchants in Kashmir and latter Punjab.

Do you know anything about the other Kashmiri clans like Dar, Mir, Lone etc They seem very similar to Butts.

The Butt's I know do indeed mostly seem to concern themselves in the way of commerce, although the ones in my family are mostly down as Scholars, Soldiers or Land Owners. Can't find any who seem to have been that good at being merchants. There are some documents that I am trying to get hold of which should hopefully through some more light on the occupation of others.

I'll be honest and it is quite unfortunate that I don't much about about other Kashmiri Clans. It's something that I will be looking in to when time permits.

Are Muslim Butts and Pandit Bhats , From same descendants or are they different ?

Same, if they are true in their claim.

 

[_Khawaja]

The Butt's I know do indeed mostly seem to concern themselves in the way of commerce, although the ones in my family are mostly down as Scholars, Soldiers or Land Owners. Can't find any who seem to have been that good at being merchants. There are some documents that I am trying to get hold of which should hopefully through some more light on the occupation of others.

I'll be honest and it is quite unfortunate that I don't much about about other Kashmiri Clans. It's something that I will be looking in to when time permits.



Same, if they are true in their claim.

Yeah it's the same in my fam, we're mostly educated people though I'd say we're inclined to do better in business. What do you think of the theory that other Kashmiri clans in Punjab adopted the "Butt" last name as a collective identifier much like how "Khan" is for Pashtuns. I mean it is quite odd how many Kashmiri clan names don't exist in Pakistan like Yatoo, Waar, Razdan, Zargar and many others ending with "oo" . It is likely they migrated to Punjab too but adopted a different last name.

 

[Apprentice]

I am a Butt. My paternal grandfather migrated from the Valley to East Punjab in 1932 (and from there to Lahore in 1947).

All sides of my family are Kashmiri so I am pure.

But a lot of my Lahori cousins are marrying outsiders though my Gujranwala cousins have all married fellow Kashmiris. Back in Kashmir they refuse to acknowledge your children as Kashmiri if you marry a non-Kashmiri. So its really important we preserve whatever purity of blood we have left so that our kin in the Valley recognise and own us.

My mother's side is Wyne. Actually Wyne is the same as Wani (e.g. Burhan Wani). In Kashmiri language the actual pronounciation is Wa'en, however the Urdu version of the name is Wani. Thats where this Wyne/ Wani confusion comes from. In Pakistan Wa'ens spell their surname as Wyne, back in Kashmir they now pronounce it in Urdu as Wani.

Mir is actually a Mughal caste who assimilated among Kashmiris during Mughal and Shahmiri rule.

Dar, Lone, Tantray, Magray, Rather etc are all Kashmiri Kashatriyas while Butt, Ganai, Sapru and Mantu etc were all Kashmiri Brahmins.

Many of the smaller Kashmiri castes in Punjab now use the Sheikh title or the Khawaja title and have forgotten their original surname.

For example Allama Iqbal was Sapru but used the Sheikh title whilst Saadat Hasan Manto's father used the Khawaja title in spite of being a Mantu.

 

[Apprentice]

Yeah it's the same in my fam, we're mostly educated people though I'd say we're inclined to do better in business. What do you think of the theory that other Kashmiri clans in Punjab adopted the "Butt" last name as a collective identifier much like how "Khan" is for Pashtuns. I mean it is quite odd how many Kashmiri clan names don't exist in Pakistan like Yatoo, Waar, Razdan, Zargar and many others ending with "oo" . It is likely they migrated to Punjab too but adopted a different last name.

I have heard of Wangano in Rawalpindi and also of Palls who now call themselves Sheikh.

 

[Apprentice]

So if khawajas, Butts and Shaikhs are all kashmiris, who are the actual punjabis in Punjab?

Jat, Rajput and Arain. Gujjars etc. There are also Rajputs and Jats etc in Kashmir but in Kashmir they are called Paharis and they are not seen as 'Kashmiris' in Kashmir. Kashmiris who live in Punjab are not even more than 1 percent of Punjab's population.

Punjabis are a very loose group identified more by language than ancestry or blood. This is one of the reasons why groups from outside Punjab have generally settled down and merged within local structures very quickly. The most recent arrivals are Urdu speakers from UP/Delhi, but historically we have had Kashmiri migraiton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmiris_of_Punjab), and also Baloch and Pashtun migrations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloch_of_Punjab), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathans_of_Punjab. I am from old Lahore and my paternal grandmothers family is from a Kashmiri background. One of my cousins is married to a Multani "pathan" (dont know which tribe, he told me but cant remember, ends with zai though of course haha). Further one of my aunts is married to an Urdu speaker. However growing up we never thought of these people as outsiders or different than us, primarily because language is the main identity marker, rather than tribe or blood.

Thats true.

@Orakzai

Unlike Pashtuns, Sindhis, Balochis, Kashmiris, Biharis, Tamils, Telugu, Marwari and Bengalis etc the Punjabis are not an actual ethnicity. 'Punjabi' is just a geographical term for the various races and castes that live in Punjab (Punjab means 'the land of five rivers'). Its very similar to how it is in Uttar Pradesh in India where people have no ethnicity and are just divided into 'castes'.

So one can be a Punjabi Pashtun Orakzai all at the same time. Pashtun would be your ethnicity, Orakzai your tribe and Punjabi your geographical identity. I am a Kashmiri by ethnicity, Butt by tribe but if I choose to I can also call myself a Punjabi geographically but I never call myself a Punjabi. I always identify with my actual ethnicity which is Kashmiri.

I once commented on a Facebook post and a Pashtun nationalist disliked muy comment and tagged all his Pashtun mates and said ''look at what this Punjabi is saying''. lol

What do Pashtuns think of Butts?

 

[Apprentice]

The Butt's I know do indeed mostly seem to concern themselves in the way of commerce, although the ones in my family are mostly down as Scholars, Soldiers or Land Owners. Can't find any who seem to have been that good at being merchants. There are some documents that I am trying to get hold of which should hopefully through some more light on the occupation of others.

I'll be honest and it is quite unfortunate that I don't much about about other Kashmiri Clans. It's something that I will be looking in to when time permits.



Same, if they are true in their claim.

True Kashmiris are never soldiers. We are a cowardly non-martial race known by the nickname of 'hato'.

We are enemies of brave races such as Pathans etc. Pashtuns who live in Kashmir hate Kashmiris and vice-versa. See this:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/593507284022958/permalink/593546217352398/


When Kashmiris first arrived in Punjab we were known for thee things.

1) Beauty, fair skin etc
2) Heavy eating, meat-eating, rice-eating etc
3) Cowardliness, lack of courage etc

If you are brave or a soldier you are simply not a Kashmiri. We have nothing to do with bravehearts (read murderous, rapist) and we are proud of that.

 

[Pakistani E]

True Kashmiris are never soldiers. We are a cowardly non-martial race known by the nickname of 'hato'.

We are enemies of brave races such as Pathans etc. Pashtuns who live in Kashmir hate Kashmiris and vice-versa. See this:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/593507284022958/permalink/593546217352398/


When Kashmiris first arrived in Punjab we were known for thee things.

1) Beauty, fair skin etc
2) Heavy eating, meat-eating, rice-eating etc
3) Cowardliness, lack of courage etc

If you are brave or a soldier you are simply not a Kashmiri. We have nothing to do with bravehearts (read murderous, rapist) and we are proud of that.

Maybe your ancestors were cowards, mine weren't. One of my ancestor was a high ranking British Indian Army officer who's Kashmiri ancestry is not in doubt as my family has a paper trail of records to prove so. And frankly, I don't need a Kashmiri authentication from you. We know our family history well going back around at least ~200 years.

Also, since you are an expert on all things Kashmiri, my Grandfather was in the AJK Regiment since its formation. I guess those Kashmiris who crossed over to join Pakistan side were not real Kashmiris because they weren't cowards?

 

[Zibago]

Are Muslim Butts and Pandit Bhats , From same descendants or are they different ?

Yes same same only difference is Pandit Bhats are shakahari Butts are mansaharis
Actually the are khanahari jo bhi ho chaley ga bus quantity ziyada ho kiyon butt sahab
@Pakistani Exile

True Kashmiris are never soldiers. We are a cowardly non-martial race known by the nickname of 'hato'.

We are enemies of brave races such as Pathans etc. Pashtuns who live in Kashmir hate Kashmiris and vice-versa. See this:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/593507284022958/permalink/593546217352398/


When Kashmiris first arrived in Punjab we were known for thee things.

1) Beauty, fair skin etc
2) Heavy eating, meat-eating, rice-eating etc
3) Cowardliness, lack of courage etc

If you are brave or a soldier you are simply not a Kashmiri. We have nothing to do with bravehearts (read murderous, rapist) and we are proud of that.

Good thing i am a hybrid

I am a Butt. My paternal grandfather migrated from the Valley to East Punjab in 1932 (and from there to Lahore in 1947).

All sides of my family are Kashmiri so I am pure.

But a lot of my Lahori cousins are marrying outsiders though my Gujranwala cousins have all married fellow Kashmiris. Back in Kashmir they refuse to acknowledge your children as Kashmiri if you marry a non-Kashmiri. So its really important we preserve whatever purity of blood we have left so that our kin in the Valley recognise and own us.

My mother's side is Wyne. Actually Wyne is the same as Wani (e.g. Burhan Wani). In Kashmiri language the actual pronounciation is Wa'en, however the Urdu version of the name is Wani. Thats where this Wyne/ Wani confusion comes from. In Pakistan Wa'ens spell their surname as Wyne, back in Kashmir they now pronounce it in Urdu as Wani.

Mir is actually a Mughal caste who assimilated among Kashmiris during Mughal and Shahmiri rule.

Dar, Lone, Tantray, Magray, Rather etc are all Kashmiri Kashatriyas while Butt, Ganai, Sapru and Mantu etc were all Kashmiri Brahmins.

Many of the smaller Kashmiri castes in Punjab now use the Sheikh title or the Khawaja title and have forgotten their original surname.

For example Allama Iqbal was Sapru but used the Sheikh title whilst Saadat Hasan Manto's father used the Khawaja title in spite of being a Mantu.

What you are no longer Kashmiri if you marry non Kashmiri :-(
@krash
Ye dhandli hay
Matbal mein Sheikh ho kar bhi Kashmiri nahi :-(

I am for marrying outside biradri to kill biradrism but ye Kashmiripan sey bedakhal na karo :-(

The Butts, sounds like a great band name.

Dude this concert is awesome the butts are on fire

Maybe your ancestors were cowards, mine weren't. One of my ancestor was a high ranking British Indian Army officer who's Kashmiri ancestry is not in doubt as my family has a paper trail of records to prove so. And frankly, I don't need a Kashmiri authentication from you. We know our family history well going back around at least ~200 years.

Also, since you are an expert on all things Kashmiri, my Grandfather was in the AJK Regiment since its formation. I guess those Kashmiris who crossed over to join Pakistan side were not real Kashmiris because they weren't cowards?

My grandfather and his brother were part of the namaloom afraad that rose against dogras
Both Sheikhs so i dont think all stereotypes are true except butts being paitus

 

[Kambojaric]

Maybe your ancestors were cowards, mine weren't. One of my ancestor was a high ranking British Indian Army officer who's Kashmiri ancestry is not in doubt as my family has a paper trail of records to prove so. And frankly, I don't need a Kashmiri authentication from you. We know our family history well going back around at least ~200 years.

Also, since you are an expert on all things Kashmiri, my Grandfather was in the AJK Regiment since its formation. I guess those Kashmiris who crossed over to join Pakistan side were not real Kashmiris because they weren't cowards?

I find that description odd as well. For sure this guy is no corward, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Shameem_Wynne. The great Gama Pehlwan was a Butt, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gama. And of course who can forget Gullu Butt . In all seriousness though these descriptions of martial viz a viz non martial are a remnant of the colonial era, as the British were obsessed with classifying tribes into these binaries. Whilst they were based on some evidence in some instances, generalising tribes and wider groups in such a fashion is not accepted behaviour in the modern world.

 

[Kashmiri Pandit]

Yes same same only difference is Pandit Bhats are shakahari Butts are mansaharis
Actually the are khanahari jo bhi ho chaley ga bus quantity ziyada ho kiyon butt sahab
@Pakistani Exile

Pandit Bhats also eat meat ( Mutton , Chicken and Fish )
Though the intake is less