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Qaher F313 l News & Discussion

Loss of IMF was heart breaking because we had gathered so much info on stuff there and all is gone now.

On topic, Qaher is fake and IRIAF is becoming a regional joke like many predicted back in late 2000s.
Well, me remember the comments when Bavar 373 was anounced. Till the vid where Bavar 373 was displayed and do firetests, a lot of people saw Bavar 373 as a fake. So me wait for the take off vid of Qaher 313.

There is absolutely nothing special about the Q-313 for there to be any reason for it to be fake!

From what Iran has shown of it so far the Aircraft is a Subsonic fighter that uses 3rd generation J-85 engines whos consumption ratio per pound of thrust is greater than that of F-4 J-79 engines
The aircraft has limited sensor capabilities, it's survivability is clearly quite limited and the aircrafts sub systems and backups seem to be less than most 2nd generation fighters as is it's speed, agility and maneuverability

Also the payload capacity seem to be so limited that it's doubtful that the Aircraft would be worth producing at all!


Long story short the cost/benefit analysis of such an aircraft doesn't make much sense for production.
 
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There is absolutely nothing special about the Q-313 for there to be any reason for it to be fake!

From what Iran has shown of it so far the Aircraft is a Subsonic fighter that uses 3rd generation J-85 engines whos consumption ratio per pound of thrust is greater than that of F-4 J-79 engines
The aircraft has limited sensor capabilities, it's survivability is clearly quite limited and the aircrafts sub systems and backups seem to be less than most 2nd generation fighters as is it's speed, agility and maneuverability

Also the payload capacity seem to be so limited that it's doubtful that the Aircraft would be worth producing at all!


Long story short the cost/benefit analysis of such an aircraft doesn't make much sense for production.

Maybe it makes sense if the combat radius is more than 500km to support an milizia army somewhere at the persian gulf which is outside chopper range/without chopper support. Qaher 313 has FLIR ect, so it can also do this support at night.
 
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Principle behind the design of the Qaher F-313

Bavar-2 seaplane's doctrine

Submarines use thermoclines to evade detection, the way an aircraft flying low over the horizon uses atmospheric refraction to its advantage.

Similarly, any aero-naval platform that make use of the two submerge/surface and surface/air interfaces can significantly decrease the probability of being detected.

Bavar-2 seaplane is the first Iranian aero-naval platform specifically designed to reduce the probability of detection, by lurking between the surface/air interface.

Fying Manta Rays, Video uploaded Aug 25, 2013


Bavar-2 seaplane

The future ground effect Qaher 313 will be deployed as a stealth CAG naval bomber, similar in its mission to the Chinese stealth J-20 CAG naval bomber.
The Chengdu J-20 is not an air superiority fighter, the role of the dedicated CAG Shengyang J-31. Thus Iran's future CAG air superiority fighter will not be the Qaher-313.
It will replace the Bavar-2 (Belief 2 باور دو) ground effect, radar-evading fixed-wing seaplane, currently deployed in the Iranian navy IRGC fleet.
The Bavar-2 can be equipped with different kinds of weapons including rockets and ASM missiles, and with a cruising speed of 185 km/h.

The Bavar-2's very low speed is its actual tactic as most radars cannot detect extremely slow moving plane. Even if some can do it, the plane will have landed on water and now it's a stealth boat. It confuses the enemies and their radars. Once the carrier group realises this, its too late.
These swarm of flying boats should overwhelm all CIWS and RIMs.

X00886966741.jpg

▲ Bavar-2

X00886966750.jpg

▲ Bavar-2


September 15, 2010 Video Uploaded Oct 30, 2014


Comparing the Qaher-313 with an existing Anti-Ship Stealth Drone
"

New Stealthy Rainbow series of unmanned aerial vehicles

May 4, 2017

1494053531628026

▲ 中国彩虹系列无人机. Rainbow series Cai Hong-XX Anti-Aircraft-Carrier drone



China is developing a new drone that uses ground effect technology to skim the surface of the ocean, allowing it to fly just eighteen inches off the water.
The unmanned vehicle could be a challenging opponent for potential adversaries, some of whom would find it difficult to detect.

The drone appears to have a set of forward canards and a pair of upward swept wings. It has an air intake on top instead of the bottom, perhaps to avoid sea spray from being sucked into the engine at very low altitude.
Most modern cruise missiles are what are called "sea-skimmers," flying thirty feet or less above the surface of the water in order to avoid detection. The curvature of the Earth means sea skimming shortens the distance that enemy ship radars can detect it, giving the defender less time to shoot it down.

Against typical sea skimmers, a ship radar thirty feet above sea level would detect the incoming missile at 15.4 miles. The same radar would only detect the Chinese drone at 9.48 miles. A drone flying that close to the ground won't be flying supersonic, and by appearances the UAV has a turbofan engine. Assuming a speed of 600 miles an hour, typical for subsonic anti-ship missiles, an enemy ship would have 59 seconds to react.

The drone can fly this low thanks to the ground effect principle, which takes place when very low flying aircraft experience more lift and less drag due to the presence of the ground underneath. The ground blocks the trailing vortices of the wing and decreases downwash. Further evidence that the drone takes advantage of ground effect is its low-wing design, where the wing root is at the bottom of the fuselage, a common feature among ground effect vehicles.

The drone has an estimated flying time of 1.5 hours, which at 600 miles an hour would give it a 900 mile range. It has a maximum takeoff weight of 6,000 pounds and a maximum payload—likely a blast fragmentation warhead—of 2,000 pounds. That's the average size of warheads the Soviet Union fielded during the Cold War to take out American aircraft carriers—that is, if when weren't fielding nuclear warheads.

Once launched, the aircraft or drone can continue to provide updated targeting data, allowing the anti-ship drones to operate with radars off. This gives them a better chance of sneaking up on the enemy, as radar is another means by which incoming missiles can be detected.

Source:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a26382/china-sea-skimming-anti-ship-drone/
,,

Qaher-313 to be deployed as CAG Naval bomber

Qaher 313 has a set of forward canards, like the navalized version of the Soviet Sukhoi Su-27SK, known as the CAG Sukhoi Su-33 or the CAG Shenyang J-15.

"

Iranian Navy Reveals Plans to Build Aircraft Carrier

Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:15

Deputy Navy Commander for Coordination Admiral Peiman Jafari Tehrani said on Monday.

"Building an aircraft carrier is also among the goals pursued by the Navy and we hope to attain this objective," he added.

"As we have managed to produce warships and submarines, we also have the capability to build aircraft carriers and heavy submarines," Sayyari said in 2014.

He underlined that building aircraft carriers and heavy submarines can be started upon a relevant decision by high-ranking Iranian officials.

Source:
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13951006001117
,,


cool_thumb.gif
 
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aaahahahaaaaa........I like this comparison with the flying manta ray, galactic penguin........lol.......maybe the qaher can have a quick snack of yumcha too when it pops up, and then belly flops back underwater. lol
 
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aaahahahaaaaa........I like this comparison with the flying manta ray, galactic penguin........lol.......maybe the qaher can have a quick snack of yumcha too when it pops up, and then belly flops back underwater. lol
Qaher is an outstanding platform which with providing a good investment, can be turned into an stealth fighter jet. But galactic had point, I don't deny
 
.
Principle behind the design of the Qaher F-313

Bavar-2 seaplane's doctrine

Submarines use thermoclines to evade detection, the way an aircraft flying low over the horizon uses atmospheric refraction to its advantage.

Similarly, any aero-naval platform that make use of the two submerge/surface and surface/air interfaces can significantly decrease the probability of being detected.

Bavar-2 seaplane is the first Iranian aero-naval platform specifically designed to reduce the probability of detection, by lurking between the surface/air interface.

Fying Manta Rays, Video uploaded Aug 25, 2013


Bavar-2 seaplane

The future ground effect Qaher 313 will be deployed as a stealth CAG naval bomber, similar in its mission to the Chinese stealth J-20 CAG naval bomber.
The Chengdu J-20 is not an air superiority fighter, the role of the dedicated CAG Shengyang J-31. Thus Iran's future CAG air superiority fighter will not be the Qaher-313.
It will replace the Bavar-2 (Belief 2 باور دو) ground effect, radar-evading fixed-wing seaplane, currently deployed in the Iranian navy IRGC fleet.
The Bavar-2 can be equipped with different kinds of weapons including rockets and ASM missiles, and with a cruising speed of 185 km/h.

The Bavar-2's very low speed is its actual tactic as most radars cannot detect extremely slow moving plane. Even if some can do it, the plane will have landed on water and now it's a stealth boat. It confuses the enemies and their radars. Once the carrier group realises this, its too late.
These swarm of flying boats should overwhelm all CIWS and RIMs.

X00886966741.jpg

▲ Bavar-2

X00886966750.jpg

▲ Bavar-2


September 15, 2010 Video Uploaded Oct 30, 2014


Comparing the Qaher-313 with an existing Anti-Ship Stealth Drone
"
New Stealthy Rainbow series of unmanned aerial vehicles

May 4, 2017

1494053531628026

▲ 中国彩虹系列无人机. Rainbow series Cai Hong-XX Anti-Aircraft-Carrier drone



China is developing a new drone that uses ground effect technology to skim the surface of the ocean, allowing it to fly just eighteen inches off the water.
The unmanned vehicle could be a challenging opponent for potential adversaries, some of whom would find it difficult to detect.

The drone appears to have a set of forward canards and a pair of upward swept wings. It has an air intake on top instead of the bottom, perhaps to avoid sea spray from being sucked into the engine at very low altitude.
Most modern cruise missiles are what are called "sea-skimmers," flying thirty feet or less above the surface of the water in order to avoid detection. The curvature of the Earth means sea skimming shortens the distance that enemy ship radars can detect it, giving the defender less time to shoot it down.

Against typical sea skimmers, a ship radar thirty feet above sea level would detect the incoming missile at 15.4 miles. The same radar would only detect the Chinese drone at 9.48 miles. A drone flying that close to the ground won't be flying supersonic, and by appearances the UAV has a turbofan engine. Assuming a speed of 600 miles an hour, typical for subsonic anti-ship missiles, an enemy ship would have 59 seconds to react.

The drone can fly this low thanks to the ground effect principle, which takes place when very low flying aircraft experience more lift and less drag due to the presence of the ground underneath. The ground blocks the trailing vortices of the wing and decreases downwash. Further evidence that the drone takes advantage of ground effect is its low-wing design, where the wing root is at the bottom of the fuselage, a common feature among ground effect vehicles.

The drone has an estimated flying time of 1.5 hours, which at 600 miles an hour would give it a 900 mile range. It has a maximum takeoff weight of 6,000 pounds and a maximum payload—likely a blast fragmentation warhead—of 2,000 pounds. That's the average size of warheads the Soviet Union fielded during the Cold War to take out American aircraft carriers—that is, if when weren't fielding nuclear warheads.

Once launched, the aircraft or drone can continue to provide updated targeting data, allowing the anti-ship drones to operate with radars off. This gives them a better chance of sneaking up on the enemy, as radar is another means by which incoming missiles can be detected.

Source:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a26382/china-sea-skimming-anti-ship-drone/

,,

Qaher-313 to be deployed as CAG Naval bomber

Qaher 313 has a set of forward canards, like the navalized version of the Soviet Sukhoi Su-27SK, known as the CAG Sukhoi Su-33 or the CAG Shenyang J-15.

"
Iranian Navy Reveals Plans to Build Aircraft Carrier

Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:15

Deputy Navy Commander for Coordination Admiral Peiman Jafari Tehrani said on Monday.

"Building an aircraft carrier is also among the goals pursued by the Navy and we hope to attain this objective," he added.

"As we have managed to produce warships and submarines, we also have the capability to build aircraft carriers and heavy submarines," Sayyari said in 2014.

He underlined that building aircraft carriers and heavy submarines can be started upon a relevant decision by high-ranking Iranian officials.

Source:
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13951006001117

,,


cool_thumb.gif
This is probably one of the most interesting posts I've seen here.
 
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I don't doubt it bro.......Iran is not joking with the Qaher, however that jumpy galactic manta ray got me snickering.......lol......

Qaher is an outstanding platform which with providing a good investment, can be turned into an stealth fighter jet. But galactic had point, I don't deny
 
.
Maybe it makes sense if the combat radius is more than 500km to support an milizia army somewhere at the persian gulf which is outside chopper range/without chopper support. Qaher 313 has FLIR ect, so it can also do this support at night.

Even in a low thrust aircraft like the F-313 your fuel cost alone will be almost $1Million USD per year per aircraft!

So you see due to the high cost of operations, the fighters low payload capacity & other cheaper more effective weapon systems available to Iran it just doesn't make sense to produce that aircraft in any meaningful number because the cost benefit analysis wouldn't make much sense

The ONLY way such a platform would ever make sense is if Iran turns it into a semi autonomies UCAV or builds a very limited number for specific missions
 
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Even in a low thrust aircraft like the F-313 your fuel cost alone will be almost $1Million USD per year per aircraft!

So you see due to the high cost of operations, the fighters low payload capacity & other cheaper more effective weapon systems available to Iran it just doesn't make sense to produce that aircraft in any meaningful number because the cost benefit analysis wouldn't make much sense

The ONLY way such a platform would ever make sense is if Iran turns it into a semi autonomies UCAV or builds a very limited number for specific missions

Yes, these aircrafts would be for specific missions as i wrote. Maybe 10-20 are needed for this kind of operations on the other side of the persian gulf. Also this build brings a lot knowledge for fighter builds which will come.
 
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Even in a low thrust aircraft like the F-313 your fuel cost alone will be almost $1Million USD per year per aircraft!

So you see due to the high cost of operations, the fighters low payload capacity & other cheaper more effective weapon systems available to Iran it just doesn't make sense to produce that aircraft in any meaningful number because the cost benefit analysis wouldn't make much sense

The ONLY way such a platform would ever make sense is if Iran turns it into a semi autonomies UCAV or builds a very limited number for specific missions

why you still talk about Qaher !?

we are able to built something like Taiwanese AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo , if we organize our effort and have moderate management but as you know , IR is full of mismanagement and corruption ...

Qaher will end just like Shafagh fighter jet , Saegheh , Azarakhsh , Zulfigqar , Karrar and ....
 
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There will be a fighter jet not sure it’s the Qaher, but IRGC has ordered a CAS fighter jet. They learned from their mistakes in Syria how crucial air support is in tight battles and how unrealiable it was waiting for Russian airsupport to arrive.

Now wether IRGC accepts F-313 or a heavily modified version of it remains to be seen. IRGC is very picky they won’t pick a project just for the sake of saying they have an Iranian made fighter jet.
 
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There is absolutely nothing special about the Q-313 for there to be any reason for it to be fake!

From what Iran has shown of it so far the Aircraft is a Subsonic fighter that uses 3rd generation J-85 engines whos consumption ratio per pound of thrust is greater than that of F-4 J-79 engines
The aircraft has limited sensor capabilities, it's survivability is clearly quite limited and the aircrafts sub systems and backups seem to be less than most 2nd generation fighters as is it's speed, agility and maneuverability

Also the payload capacity seem to be so limited that it's doubtful that the Aircraft would be worth producing at all!


Long story short the cost/benefit analysis of such an aircraft doesn't make much sense for production.

You are assuming that aircraft is real and everything that is required to create a potent air fighter is available to Iran. That is not true at all ... where would the radar come from? avionics? combat suite, armaments? list goes on and on. These people couldn't even replicate a F-5E/F from scratch and we are supposed to believe that they would fly an indigenous design with all stuff made inside Iran? If such newer domestic combat suite was available to IRIAF that easily then they might have first gone through with up-gradation of Mig and phantom fleets. They did not. Handful Phantoms are still flying with the same APQ-120 relics ...

What you said is right but that is all concept. This aircraft's existence as a real project is challenged by the mere fact that Iran as a nation is just not yet capable of creating a potent fighter aircraft without heavy foreign support.
 
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You are assuming that aircraft is real and everything that is required to create a potent air fighter is available to Iran. That is not true at all ... where would the radar come from? avionics? combat suite, armaments? list goes on and on. These people couldn't even replicate a F-5E/F from scratch and we are supposed to believe that they would fly an indigenous design with all stuff made inside Iran? If such newer domestic combat suite was available to IRIAF that easily then they might have first gone through with up-gradation of Mig and phantom fleets. They did not. Handful Phantoms are still flying with the same APQ-120 relics ...

What you said is right but that is all concept. This aircraft's existence as a real project is challenged by the mere fact that Iran as a nation is just not yet capable of creating a potent fighter aircraft without heavy foreign support.
Upgraded AN AWG9 is armed with Iranian made and modified versions of AIM 54 missiles. Sejjil and Fakour 90 replaced American made phoenix missiles.
494367_140.jpg

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...it’s-modifying-f_14-fighters-for-new-missions . hamlet
https://theaviationist.com/2015/03/01/iriaf-f-14s-overhauled/

AN AWG9 is now a new radar thanks to Iranian scientists. With more capabilities and more survivability in EW warfare.
F 4 phantoms with new radar can attack naval fleets
1469633_983.jpg

Phantoms are flying with our radars not the old American ones.

We as a nation could localize technology of F 14 , F 4 , F 5 , Mirage , mig 29 , Su 24 25, modernization and completely overhauling them all. We are overhauling Il 76 the heavy transporting aircraft.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/irans-air-force-overhauls-ilyushin-aircraft.517728/
Talking about us as a nation is costly, think about your words before throwing them out.

Have fun
 
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You are assuming that aircraft is real and everything that is required to create a potent air fighter is available to Iran. That is not true at all ... where would the radar come from? avionics? combat suite, armaments? list goes on and on. These people couldn't even replicate a F-5E/F from scratch and we are supposed to believe that they would fly an indigenous design with all stuff made inside Iran? If such newer domestic combat suite was available to IRIAF that easily then they might have first gone through with up-gradation of Mig and phantom fleets. They did not. Handful Phantoms are still flying with the same APQ-120 relics ...

What you said is right but that is all concept. This aircraft's existence as a real project is challenged by the mere fact that Iran as a nation is just not yet capable of creating a potent fighter aircraft without heavy foreign support.

You don't have the slightest clue what it is your talking about!

If you had any clue as to what it was you were talking about you would know that producing a Fighters like the F-5 and Saegheh is far more complicated than the Q-313 in terms of production!

And Iran did produce the F-5 and whether you wanna believe it or not that's up to you.....
And the only reason Iran was able to produce the F-5's in a shorter time frame has to do with the fact that it's reverse engineering from proven technology that doesn't requires years of testing and trail and error! Where as the Q-313 requires years of testing and trial and error before a production model is ready to be produced.

And at the end of the day the Q-313 is a far simpler platform to produce than the F-5 if and when a production model is ready!

As for Iran not being able to produce Radars and Avionics those are just nonsense delusions in your head and far from reality!

Can Iran build Radars, weapon systems and avionics that can compete with even a decade old American or Russian Technology? CLEARLY NOT! But that's a far cry from not being able to produce something or choosing not to spend millions towards producing an outdated technology when you have better options at your disposal!

And don't confuse choosing not to produce something with not being able too!

An F-5 has no real Air to Air capabilities and very limited situational awareness it's combat radius is about 300km and in the Iran Iraq war Iranian F-5's could barely manage to go 200km into Iraqi territory so a Fatteh-110 could do a better job delivering ordnance than an F-5

So just because Iran chooses not to produce the F-5 in large quantities doesn't mean they can't!
 
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Vevak,

The F-5E does have SOME air to air capabilities but they are limited to WVR and if mated with a modern AAM and HMS (helmet-mounted-sight), it would still be quite a nasty threat today. Modernized F-5s can even compete to some degree in BVR engagements (see Brazil's F-5s, equipped with Israeli Derby medium range missiles). There's a reason the USN/USMC still use them in aggressor squadrons. There are obviously limits to what the old girl can do, but equipped properly, she can still be quite lethal in many combat scenarios.

Those range figures you cite also don't match any literature on F-5E performance.

Per Janes's All the World's Aircraft 1975-1976 (when the bird was still fairly new):
- Combat radius carrying 2x AIM-9s + maximum fuel load (internal & external) + 5 minutes of afterburner use at 15,000 feet = 1405km
- Combat radius carrying 6300lbs of ordnance (including 2x AIM-9s) + internal fuel (obviously no room for drop tanks) +5 minutes of afterburner use at sea level = 305km
- Combat radius carrying 2x AIM-9s + 2x 530lb bombs + max fuel + 5 minutes of afterburner use at seal level = 1130km

I found figures similar to these in several books I have dedicated to the Northrop F-5 family.

So while the IRIAF didn't often drive F-5s deep into Iraqi airspace, it wasn't necessary because they couldn't fly that far with useful payloads.

IMHO, that decision had more to do with the fact that F-4D/Es were capable of carrying PGMs (GBU-10/AGM-65 respectively) and were and could be equipped with fairly modern ECM kit for the time. The F-5E/F models Iran received were not inherently capable of carrying AGM-65s (Saudi models imported a few years later were the first, thanks to the newer APQ-159 radar) and they had virtually no ECM kit beyond RWRs (and many weren't even fitted with those!).
 
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