PTI's desperate campaign for "DAWN" poll

[Gazi]

Allegedly. That's the keyword. MQM is presenting it as actually, when they are purely allegations. Therefore, unless MQM can prove their allegations, they are lying.

MQM is doing Politics here and they would use whatever it takes to protect their Workers because its Workers due to which MQM is still Alive they cant Abandon them just like that because Rangers took them in Custody without any charges or Accusations.

He is not asking for any explanation. He is trying to raise an army and threatening to start a terrorist Civil War campaign to break Pakistan. That is not just 'ungli'.

He is just trying to explain that if you cant Listen to us Peacefully then dont blame us for disturbances well in context of aftermath of 1992 Jinnah Pur Operation when MQM was Exposed to tortures for the first time and develop motivation for revenge and turned Violent due to which whole Karachi had to suffer for decade. I think these tactics of Rangers are giving their Next Generation same Blood-lust that was given to them in 1990s by Army.

I said Saulat Mirza's OLD video.
The one below was uploaded in 2013. I'm not sure when it surfaced, but it was long before 21-3-15.

That Video doesnt even count since it doesnt receive any Response to begin with and it was BEFORE Karachi Operation even started on the first place the real deal was 21-3-15 Video which kept media Jumping up and down for weeks until realize they are making hopeless efforts against MQM.

I didn't know you can break the law and just 'get permits' by 'citing Taliban etc threats'.
Nothing has been done? The weapons have been ceased.

Pehle kehte ho ziyada karwai ho rahi hai phir kehte ho ''nothing has been done'', ajeeb admi ho meray bhai.

I simply Said they provided Permits and Licenses they had and Rangers doesnt even gave any RESPONSE for that rather accuse MQM for Stealing NATO Weapon. This Irresponsive Attitude is the problem because MQM isnt Taliban they are ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE of Majority of Karachi so they are operating within Constitution and same constitution apply on LEA as well on taking any action against them unlike Taliban which doesnt even accept Pakistan Constitution on the first place.

And the same is true for Rao Anwar, or Zulfiqar Mirza's statements against MQM.

You can't just say ''all the confessions against MQM are wrong but all the confession against other people are right''.
That's called double standards.

Confession Under Custody is Different scenario from Revelation as a free and Powerful man. Saulat Mirza Recorded those Videos under CUSTODY which means he would have been Influenced or Threatened by LEA to do that while Zulfiqar Mirza Reveal his dirty Business while being FREE and POWERFUL man of the Province without any Influence or threats involved.

Rao Anwaar ACCUSE MQM by bringing two unknown People in front of media in a Questionable way and try to make a Political Statement by ALLEGEDLY Fabricated Documents. There is a whole Background of that as well but I would discus that later.

Then I will say the exact same thing about MQM : MQM can go to court and prove the Army, Rangers, ISI, BBC, Scotland Yard and so on guilty in court.

They are ACCUSED of those things so it is ACCUSERS job to PROVE their Accusation in court against Suspects not suspects job to prove accusations are wrong till they are DRAGGED to Court.

No weapons found. Read the article:
''There was no report about the recovery of weapons or other illegal items during the raid.''
''the raid was conducted after receiving information on the possible presence of suspects.''

No need for MQM propagandist conspiracy theories.

Here is Target Killer of Sunni Tehrik and BTW they also mentioned 9 People were taken under Custody for three months from Sunni Tehrik Office now tell me why Sarwat Ijaz Qadri wasnt taken in Custody like Aamir Khan while being Suspect and why havent rangers Spit out Details of Sunni Tehrik Raids like the way they did in case of 9-0 while claiming so called NATO Container Stolen weapons???

Double Standards or Conspiracy????You decide.

 

[Patriots]

Feel like banging my head on the wall, you genius this is what a criminal is saying in Rangers custody. It has nothing to do with what Rangers are saying.

Do you have some comprehension problem

I have posted 2 snapshots ... In first pic rangers accusing to MQM worker for an offence ... But in other culprits were admitting their crime for same offence What a co-incidence

 

[Patriots]

You were talking about retaliation and I was talking about resistance and non-cooperation. No, there would be no retaliation if MQM was non-cooperative. Simply protesting and making such statements is non-cooperation.

Look up the definition of 'non-cooperation'. Yes, the protest is non-cooperation.

You had admitted in your previous post that both protest and retsliation are forms of resistance .......

MQM is resisting Law Enforcement. It is not co-operative.

So people of Karachi have no right to protest. ... Good going dude .......

 

[TankMan]

MQM is doing Politics here and they would use whatever it takes to protect their Workers because its Workers due to which MQM is still Alive they cant Abandon them just like that because Rangers took them in Custody without any charges or Accusations.

So you mean ''MQM is doing politics by protecting criminals because MQM is run by criminals''.

He is just trying to explain that if you cant Listen to us Peacefully then dont blame us for disturbances

No, he is threatening to start a war if his criminal friends aren't allowed to conduct criminal activities. That is what he said and what he means, no matter how you sugarcoat it.

That Video doesnt even count since it doesnt receive any Response to begin with

How does it not count? It is allegations against MQM, from before the NA-246 elections were announced.. It doesn't matter what 'response' it 'received'. It's there. You said all the confessions were only there because of NA-246, I proved you wrong. End of story.

The 'response' it 'received' doesn't matter because I am trying to have a debate here, not make up propaganda.

have posted 2 snapshots ... In first pic rangers accusing to MQM worker for an offence ... But in other culprits were admitting their crime for same offence What a co-incidence

One incident doesn't mean anything.

You MQMers had blamed the Rangers for Waqas' murder when later another culprit was found. What a bloody coincidence.

There are dozens of cases where the Rangers were right and MQM was wrong, as opposed to a few minor incidents where MQM was right.

I simply Said they provided Permits and Licenses they had and Rangers doesnt even gave any RESPONSE for that

You simply said wrong. The Rangers gave a response to that by saying that many of the weapons were illegal, military grade weapons that could not be licensed.

rather accuse MQM for Stealing NATO Weapon.

Nobody accused MQM of stealing NATO weapons. That was an opinion a Rangers officer gave when he was asked by the media. He said that the weapons could have been from NATO. They certainly were NATO-grade.

It wasn't an accusation. There is no need for accusations. It is proven that MQM had illegal NATO-grade weapons.

Now it doesn't matter if those weapons came out of a container, a weapons dealer or some magical tree. They were there, and they were illegal.

so they are operating within Constitution and same

No, not when they commit crimes. Nowhere does it say in the constitution that it is ok for Altaf Bhai to have someone murdered in a bori. When people affiliated with MQM commit crimes, they are no longer operating within the Constitution.

Confession Under Custody is Different scenario from Revelation as a free and Powerful man. Saulat Mirza Recorded those Videos under CUSTODY which means he would have been Influenced or Threatened by LEA to do that while Zulfiqar Mirza Reveal his dirty Business while being FREE and POWERFUL man of the Province without any Influence or threats involved.

The LEAs have provided confessions. It is now the accused's job to prove that the confessions were made under duress.

They are ACCUSED of those things so it is ACCUSERS job to PROVE their Accusation in court against Suspects not suspects job to prove accusations are wrong till they are DRAGGED to Court.

The accusers have provided their evidence. If the accused still say they are innocent, the onus is now onto the accused to prove the accusers' evidence invalid in court.

tell me why Sarwat Ijaz Qadri wasnt taken in Custody like Aamir Khan while being Suspect

Because he cooperated with the investigation and the Sunni Tehreek surrendered the criminals to the Law Enforcement.

and why havent rangers Spit out Details of Sunni Tehrik Raids like the way they did in case of 9-0

They have revealed all the details.
Rangers reveal shocking details about Sunni Tehreek raid | The News Tribe
Rangers reveal arrest of 11 Pakistan Sunni Tehreek workers - The Express Tribune

while claiming so called NATO Container Stolen weapons

Because there were no NATO-grade weapons found there.

Double Standards or Conspiracy????You decide.

BS MQM propaganda. That's what I've decided.

 

[Gazi]

So you mean ''MQM is doing politics by protecting criminals because MQM is run by criminals''.

That is Court's job to decide Criminals or terrorists until then they are INNOCENT until Proven Guilty.

No, he is threatening to start a war if his criminal friends aren't allowed to conduct criminal activities. That is what he said and what he means, no matter how you sugarcoat it.

DO you think things remain Peaceful once this Escalate????In 1992 average Karachiite had to Suffer whole decade because of new found Purpose of Violence among MQMers due to being Exposed to Tortures and Extrajudicial Murders for the first time and this time even Altaf wont be able to control things if he wants to.

You simply said wrong. The Rangers gave a response to that by saying that many of the weapons were illegal, military grade weapons that could not be licensed.

Did they Provide any list of weapons for which they didnt received any Licenses or Permits undersigned by Judicial Magistrate who is responsible for looking after Raids????

Nobody accused MQM of stealing NATO weapons. That was an opinion a Rangers officer gave when he was asked by the media. He said that the weapons could have been from NATO. They certainly were NATO-grade.

It wasn't an accusation. There is no need for accusations. It is proven that MQM had illegal NATO-grade weapons.

Now it doesn't matter if those weapons came out of a container, a weapons dealer or some magical tree. They were there, and they were illegal.

OK I accept your assumption that they had OPINIONS but they provides Permits and Licenses of whatever they had for which it was Rangers job to communicate how many Weapon's Licenses and Permits were Missing FORMALLY. Have they provide them with something regarding Missing Documents???If not then dont blame MQM for that. Without communication Rangers can put anything on them even if they were confiscated from 9-0 or not.

No, not when they commit crimes. Nowhere does it say in the constitution that it is ok for Altaf Bhai to have someone murdered in a bori. When people affiliated with MQM commit crimes, they are no longer operating within the Constitution.

These are ACCUSATION and Courts are there to PROOF them so first PROOF Altaf's Involvement otherwise he is innocent until Proven Guilty. Sadly that is how Judiciary works in Pakistan and in the World.

The LEAs have provided confessions. It is now the accused's job to prove that the confessions were made under duress.

Accused would defend that in Court and AFAIK no case was Launched against Accused in court on the basis of those confessions so those are USELESS to begin with.

The accusers have provided their evidence. If the accused still say they are innocent, the onus is now onto the accused to prove the accusers' evidence invalid in court.

To which Court???If Accusers didnt Drag Accused to court on the basis of those Confessions then Accused have no OBLIGATION to defend them either.

Because he cooperated with the investigation and the Sunni Tehreek surrendered the criminals to the Law Enforcement.

When did Aamir Khan resisted during Raid???Can you recall the moment Please.

They have revealed all the details.
Rangers reveal shocking details about Sunni Tehreek raid | The News Tribe
Rangers reveal arrest of 11 Pakistan Sunni Tehreek workers - The Express Tribune

They took 11 People in Custody but RELEASED the Head of Organization within Hours while they took around 30 people under custody in 9-0 Raid and DETAINED Aamir Khan for three months for interrogation. See the difference between both.

Because there were no NATO-grade weapons found there.

You might be expert on Weapons but so far they provided nothing regarding Which Weapons were found legal and which were found illegal after MQM provided their Permits and Licenses.

BS MQM propaganda. That's what I've decided.

From your Glass which is nonlocal it may be that but I have Local Prospective to that and I call it Double Standards because I am aware of Sunni Tehreek as well as MQM first Hand.

How does it not count? It is allegations against MQM, from before the NA-246 elections were announced.. It doesn't matter what 'response' it 'received'. It's there. You said all the confessions were only there because of NA-246, I proved you wrong. End of story.

The 'response' it 'received' doesn't matter because I am trying to have a debate here, not make up propaganda.

Its only there on Internet for Maligning and Humiliating but no Court Case registered against them on the basis of that Video and not even a single Media showed that video deeming them USELESS to begin with.

Sudden rise of Confession Videos started getting LEAKED and started Getting discussed in media over and over were during NA 246 By Election announcement 10-3-15 till Election held on 23-4-15 and after that those Videos got MYSTERIOUSLY stopped Leaking for some reason.

 

[taimur12]

@TankMan you are failing to understand the sentiments of public at large. pakistan army does not have a good history. the mqm voter base in karachi which is in the millions, perceive the army to be dishonest. the army will have to build their credibility. ruling through force will never resolve this conflict. they need the consent of the people of karachi. the idea of having a referendum was the fairest option.

 

[TankMan]

@TankMan you are failing to understand the sentiments of public at large. pakistan army does not have a good history. the mqm voter base in karachi which is in the millions, perceive the army to be dishonest. the army will have to build their credibility. ruling through force will never resolve this conflict. they need the consent of the people of karachi. the idea of having a referendum was the fairest option.

First of all, MQM's voter base is not ''public sentiment at large''.

Yes, MQM does have legitimate public support in Karachi - but that does not give them the right to commit crimes and harbour a militant wing.

What you are calling 'public perception' at this point is full of twisted justifications, propaganda, conspiracy theories - anything and everything that absolves MQM of its crimes.

For them, It's not just the Army - it's the judiciary, every single media group in Pakistan, the intelligence agencies, the Pathans, the BBC, the London Police - everyone is conspiring against MQM. Except India of course.

Trying to 'build credibility' in the eyes of the people who believe all that nonsense is impractical because they will only be happy when MQM is given absolute impunity and absolute power. Altaf has managed to gather a group of followers so brainwashed and indoctrinated with ethnic rhetoric that they will never accept the reality of criminal elements within MQM,

The Army has tried more than enough to establish its credibility, but MQM will never accept it. It doesn't matter how fair the operation is, how many PAC criminals are killed and arrested, how many Sunni Tehreek workers are arrested, how many Lyari gangsters are killed, how many land-grabbers are prosecuted - at the end of the day, when criminals from MQM are targeted, they will parrot some ethnic bull and enough people will buy it.

The idea of having the referendum was nothing more than a delaying tactic.

As long as MQM's educated members do not re-take their party from criminals and terrorists, they will continue to conflict with the security of Pakistan. If I had to pick from the two, I know which one i'd choose.

 

[Gazi]

First of all, MQM's voter base is not ''public sentiment at large''.

Yes, MQM does have legitimate public support in Karachi - but that does not give them the right to commit crimes and harbour a militant wing.

What you are calling 'public perception' at this point is full of twisted justifications, propaganda, conspiracy theories - anything and everything that absolves MQM of its crimes.

MQM has enough Base that no one has been able to Politically Challenge them in Karachi for last 30 Years now.

Your problem is you find MQM as only sum of all Evil while discount other elements heavily on the other hand Karachiite find ALL Elements involve as Karachi is MAGNET for all kinds of Criminals due to Poor LEA and lot of Money.

You can consider the Twisted Justifications but those who have Experienced our Brave LEA in the past wont get Convince to their side of Story that easily.

For them, It's not just the Army - it's the judiciary, every single media group in Pakistan, the intelligence agencies, the Pathans, the BBC, the London Police - everyone is conspiring against MQM. Except India of course.

Trying to 'build credibility' in the eyes of the people who believe all that nonsense is impractical because they will only be happy when MQM is given absolute impunity and absolute power. Altaf has managed to gather a group of followers so brainwashed and indoctrinated with ethnic rhetoric that they will never accept the reality of criminal elements within MQM,

Intelligence Agencies have huge Credibility of not been able to Convict terrorists in front of court and got people released later by courts.

MQM has DELIVERED the result when they were given Powers like LB System during Musharraf so they are way better choice for development of Karachi is concerned and only thing they need is Administrative Authority. The way Karachi is running now a days are making people remember Musharraf and MQM's period and at the time when Karachiite are suffering due to Administrative Negligence and lack of development due Sindh Govt. Attitude MQM is also Suffering further Adding sympathies for them.

The Army has tried more than enough to establish its credibility, but MQM will never accept it. It doesn't matter how fair the operation is, how many PAC criminals are killed and arrested, how many Sunni Tehreek workers are arrested, how many Lyari gangsters are killed, how many land-grabbers are prosecuted - at the end of the day, when criminals from MQM are targeted, they will parrot some ethnic bull and enough people will buy it.

Army has TRIED too hard to make an Administrative Problem a Political One and also by allowing the real Culprit that CAUSE the new wave of Crimes in Karachi ESCAPE to USA without even Questioned Once. Everyone knows who was behind Amn Committee Terrorists but no one bothers to arrest them despite they have got the real person in their Custody. Those Religious and Sectarian Butchers are getting freed within Hours while a guy from MQM has to suffer 3 Months in Custody without any Charge or even any case against them. So much for Across the board thing. If LEA was GENUINELY Interested then they would have Treated them Equally.

We have seen Peaceful times in Karachi when there was Same MQM around and were Actually In Charge in many areas of Govt. and they were Doing a good Job of what was expected from them. We just wants that good Time Back which is possible if same formula could be used but our Agencies are not interested in it rather they want Complicate things by Making an Administrative Problem a Political one getting rid of Any Chance that we can get those good Days back.

 

[TankMan]

Your problem is you find MQM as only sum of all Evil

No, no I don't. There are many other evils in Karachi. But MQM is one of them. Or at least elements within MQM, elements which are defended by Altaf Hussain.

You can not just absolve them of their crimes by saying that ''others are doing it too''.

MQM has DELIVERED the result when they were given Powers like LB System during Musharraf so they are way better choice for development of Karachi is concerned and only thing they need is Administrative Authority.

Whether MQM has delivered or not is another argument, but even if they did, it still does not absolve them of their involvement in criminal activities.

A party involved in criminal activities can never be a 'choice for development.' Not until they hand over the criminals, co-operate with Law Enforcement and stop opposing the security of Pakistan.

Those Religious and Sectarian Butchers are getting freed within Hours while a guy from MQM has to suffer 3 Months in Custody

You see, here comes the propaganda I was talking about. From only one raid, eleven ''religious and sectarian butchers'' have had cases filed against them.

They are not getting freed within hours. That is a lie.

Some of the accused were freed because there was no evidence against them. Just like many MQM workers were freed within less than two days of their arrests.
Rangers release 19 more MQM activists
(March 13th, they were arrested on March 11th)

Others , against whom evidence was available (11 of them), were arrested and then charged.

 

[Jango]

You can not just absolve them of their crimes by saying that ''others are doing it too''.

Whether MQM has delivered or not is another argument, but even if they did, it still does not absolve them of their involvement in criminal activities.

That's the key argument...not that hard to understand.

 

[Gazi]

No, no I don't. There are many other evils in Karachi. But MQM is one of them. Or at least elements within MQM, elements which are defended by Altaf Hussain.

You can not just absolve them of their crimes by saying that ''others are doing it too''.

But the only Target of yours is MQM while you normally have nothing against Others. Altaf is trying to Defend whole MQM not just few elements of it as we are observing Political Elements within MQM is also THREATENED many times in this Operation so its not just Militant being targeted here Political Elements have also been Targeted in the process as well.

Whether MQM has delivered or not is another argument, but even if they did, it still does not absolve them of their involvement in criminal activities.

A party involved in criminal activities can never be a 'choice for development.' Not until they hand over the criminals, co-operate with Law Enforcement and stop opposing the security of Pakistan.

Talking about Criminal Activity then ARREST the CRIMINAL ONLY rather then each and every Unit and Sector People for nothing at all. Their Units and Sectors are CLOSED since April 2015 just because of RANDOM ARRESTS what is this all about???If there are Criminals then Arrest those Criminals why those who have nothing to do with their crimes.

They should Handover Criminals but Before that LEA should have provided the DETAILS of Criminals among them as well. How would they know who is criminal and who is not if LEA doesnt COOPERATE????If LEA doesnt even wants to cooperate and then ALLEGEDLY Sponsoring Maligning, Humiliating Campaigns against them then they are justified in Answering them in the same way.

You see, here comes the propaganda I was talking about. From only one raid, eleven ''religious and sectarian butchers'' have had cases filed against them.

They are not getting freed within hours. That is a lie.

Some of the accused were freed because there was no evidence against them. Just like many MQM workers were freed within less than two days of their arrests.
Rangers release 19 more MQM activists
(March 13th, they were arrested on March 11th)

Others , against whom evidence was available (11 of them), were arrested and then charged.

And How much so called EVIDENCE do they have against Aamir Khan????They kept him for 3 months and couldnt able to DEFEND their position against him even in trial but that Sectarian Butcher doesnt even saw the trial on the first place and got released.

Like I said if they wants to PROVE their ACROSS THE BOARD thing then they have to TREAT their SUSPECTS Across the Board as well. One guy Facing Trial before getting Released and other got released for nothing wont going to work in their case. If they Genuinely interested then Treat them Equally or shouldnt even Claim anything as their CREDIBILITY is not genuine anymore.

 

[haviZsultan]

No matter how much reality the MQM supporters are faced with they will continue denying their parties role in violence. In fact they will shout the mantra of us Karachites being oppressed. Its sickening to see how ethnic politics rules the country.

As a member of the ethnic group that votes for MQM I say clearly, we need to help the other ethnicities move to a better standard of living, not get bogged down in ethnic mindsets and the false narrative that we are oppressed. As an ethnic group we have the highest gdp per capita, more than any group in the rest of Pakistan. We have control of cities and the major economy of Sindh as we dominate karachi, the provincial capital.

Only insanity would make us demand more. Someone has to take the lead in eliminating ethnic tensions and work to improve conditions for the rest of Pakistan. This negative mindset and the false belief that we are oppressed has led to us not giving our full potential to improve Pakistan.

We are locked in hatred for other ethnic groups and continue to be problematic to the country because we vote for a mafia-and the whole country calls it a mafia. It is time to walk with the rest of our countrymen.

 

[taimur12]

That's the key argument...not that hard to understand.

that is not they key argument. @TankMan and @Jango considering i actually know families here is US that are from karachi and support mqm. i have a realistic perspective on this issue. the problem is that pakistan army/rangers have been criminals themselves in the past. they are not seen as an impartial institution. this conflict will not be resolved through maligning mqm. unless pakistan army accepts the atrocities it has committed in the past and makes a fresh start and commitment to upheld justice and impartiality, any operation it does will never have the support of people of karachi, and ultimately it is the people of the karachi who have do decide how they want to be governed, not anyone else.

 

[Jango]

that is not they key argument. @TankMan and @Jango considering i actually know families here is US that are from karachi and support mqm. i have a realistic perspective on this issue. the problem is that pakistan army/rangers have been criminals themselves in the past. they are not seen as an impartial institution. this conflict will not be resolved through maligning mqm. unless pakistan army accepts the atrocities it has committed in the past and makes a fresh start and commitment to upheld justice and impartiality, any operation it does will never have the support of people of karachi, and ultimately it is the people of the karachi who have do decide how they want to be governed, not anyone else.

People even support the Taliban, LeJ, and BLA! Doesn't make them right.

What do you suggest the Army does then to as you said "accept the atrocities it has committed in the past and makes a fresh start and commitment to upheld justice and impartiality"?

What's the alternate?

Secondly, regarding the bold part (and this goes for all of Pakistan), I personally don't believe that the people in Pakistan (me included) have enough of a mental capacity to choose good rulers. Ham aik nihayet jahil qaum hain...just my personal opinion. We just cannot rule over ourselves. Har kisi ki danda chahiay. Don't take it as a support of martial law and go down that line please.

 

[Gazi]

People even support the Taliban, LeJ, and BLA! Doesn't make them right.

Why do they support BLA, LeJ and other trouble Makers on the first Place????Ever Bother to understand that????