Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[The Eagle]

Deino, I can imagine you saying NO to the Fifth Generation AZM design too.

Throwing stone at hornet nest? Wait for it.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I don't get it why does he have such a negative behavior towards every single person. He pretends to be godfather of PDF which is just his imagination. His opinion only does count as a common member of PDF nothing else. He should take a note on his own behavior.

You don't know him.

I have enjoyed reading his posts for many years. He is very particular about sources & that is why you feel the way you do. He insists on references and would challenge those he disagrees with. He is German & has no reason to act what your ascribe to him.

@Deino might see the design & right away question whether Pakistan has the technology to pull it off. You know what? He would be very right in saying so. Skepticism is a good quality for a researcher. Being a patriot does not mean that you have to be blind.

 

[Kabotar]

@LKJ86 You have 4 years, go.

Am upping it further.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

That’s the sane approach.

Pakistan should have taken the FC-31 body and partnered with Turkey to develop common avionics, missiles, radar and other critical subsystems. and cost effective manner .

Turks showed no interest and turned us away when some time ago pre AZM we approached them.

for them we had no technological base or the resources to bring on the table to be their partner.
red faced we returned and decided our own program. only recently we got favourable Turkish curiosity.

these are words from a PAF officer.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Throwing stone at hornet nest? Wait for it.

HA HA HA.... I respect his intellect & thoroughness of analysis.

 

[The Eagle]

HA HA HA.... I respect his intellect & thoroughness of analysis.

Always told to the members about Deino as such. You are totally on the mark in second last post. I was just poking him and I hope that @Deino wouldn't mind.

Also, you have already seen conceptional design after phase 1 completion; I am sure many will think more than once what you said Bhai ji.

 

[PakFactor]

You don't know him.

I have enjoyed reading his posts for many years. He is very particular about sources & that is why you feel the way you do. He insists on references and would challenge those he disagrees with. He is German & has no reason to act what your ascribe to him.

@Deino might see the design & right away question whether Pakistan has the technology to pull it off. You know what? He would be very right in saying so. Skepticism is a good quality for a researcher. Being a patriot does not mean that you have to be blind.

He's German, I thought Uncle was Pakistani?

 

[Chak Bamu]

He's German, I thought Uncle was Pakistani?

Read his signature. You would at least know his real name.

 

[PakFactor]

Read his signature. You would at least know his real name.

Oh your talking about Deino, I thought we was talking about MastanKhan, lol my bad.

 

[Deino]

Deino, I can imagine you saying NO to the Fifth Generation AZM design too.

No, but as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) noted, I "would love, absolutely love, to be proven wrong". IMO it simply does not make any sense - and even more si for Pakistan most likely impossible to found alone - to finalise development of a rejected design, that was to form an even larger heavy-weight fighter than the J-20 now is.

 

[Chak Bamu]

No, but as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) noted, I "would love, absolutely love, to be proven wrong". IMO it simply does not make any sense - and even more si for Pakistan most likely impossible to found alone - to finalise development of a rejected design, that was to form an even larger heavy-weight fighter than the J-20 now is.

I know it would be next to impossible to fund it. That is the Achilles' heel. I am skeptical to be honest. But Pakistan did make nuclear weapons despite everything (and at what cost?).

 

[Deino]

I don't get it why does he have such a negative behavior towards every single person. He pretends to be godfather of PDF which is just his imagination. His opinion only does count as a common member of PDF nothing else. He should take a note on his own behavior.

I think you misunderstood me completely even if you are correct, I find it annoying that now almost any rejected or even ridiculous project is put on the table as if Pakistan can develop it on its own.

First - in case of such proposals like enlarging the JF-17 to a J-10-sized fighter by replacing the RD-93 with the WS-10 or even just making it a twin-engined fighter - these members IMO forget that then buying a customised J-10 makes much more sense, or developing (with China's help) a dedicated type suited for PAF's needs ... and not re-inventing the wheeel with a then dated 4th generation type 30 years too late or with a much too large and once rejected PLAAF proposal ... regardless the question, if SAC would sell it anyway.

As such - and I beg to differ - it is not a "negative behavior towards every single person" but a "negative behavior towards every stupid idea". I remember a few weeks ago a funny statement claiming "never invite a German to a party" (unless he pays the beer!) and maybe I'm indeed too much fixed in my own logic. I'm not a dreamer, be that "we will get J-15s, J-16s and even J-20s" contradict to everything I know ans how I see esp. the Chinese side. I stick to realistic things only (like J-10s) and similar I out-rightly turn down any such ideas as unrealistic; not impossible as certain critics immediately might add, but not unlikely.

 

[Deino]

You don't know him.

I have enjoyed reading his posts for many years. He is very particular about sources & that is why you feel the way you do. He insists on references and would challenge those he disagrees with. He is German & has no reason to act what your ascribe to him.

@Deino might see the design & right away question whether Pakistan has the technology to pull it off. You know what? He would be very right in saying so. Skepticism is a good quality for a researcher. Being a patriot does not mean that you have to be blind.

Thanks my friend for these more than kind words and I must admit I feel sorrow that some feel so much offended by my posts. It is in no way that I want to wish any harm to Pakistan - no way, never - but I feel indeed annoyed by stupid fan-boyish posts, by ideas which are against (at least my understanding) of feasibility. And again, I would never wish anything more than to be proven wrong!

 

[Tamiyah]

I think you misunderstood me completely even if you are correct, I find it annoying that now almost any rejected or even ridiculous project is put on the table as if Pakistan can develop it on its own.

First - in case of such proposals like enlarging the JF-17 to a J-10-sized fighter by replacing the RD-93 with the WS-10 or even just making it a twin-engined fighter - these members IMO forget that then buying a customised J-10 makes much more sense, or developing (with China's help) a dedicated type suited for PAF's needs ... and not re-inventing the wheeel with a then dated 4th generation type 30 years too late or with a much too large and once rejected PLAAF proposal ... regardless the question, if SAC would sell it anyway.

As such - and I beg to differ - it is not a "negative behavior towards every single person" but a "negative behavior towards every stupid idea". I remember a few weeks ago a funny statement claiming "never invite a German to a party" (unless he pays the beer!) and maybe I'm indeed too much fixed in my own logic. I'm not a dreamer, be that "we will get J-15s, J-16s and even J-20s". I stick to realistic things only (like J-10s) and similar I out-rightly turn down any such ideas as unrealistic; not impossible as certain critics immediately might add, but not unlikely.

Thank you so much for your explanation. I have much more respect for you than ever before.

 

[Armchair]

Hi Oscar, sorry for the late reply. Yes, I was just talking theoretically. I am sure you know far more than me about Pakistan's true requirements.

I liked your other post that Pak basically has two requirements for a stealth aircraft - as a striker (to penetrate IADS with S-400) and an air superiority aircraft. Another country had a similar requirement - France and chose to put both requirements in one plane (the Rafale) but PAF may or may not choose a similar path. PAF could easily choose two separate platforms for each of those requirements.

Now, the analysis I wrote is about what I perceive as the "Occam's Razor" given the available open source information. However, if PAF asked me to design a plane (not that I am qualified for that) I would not choose the Occam's razor I had outlined.

I would rather go for a pure delta similar to the Mirage 2000, and a V tail like an YF-23.

@Chak Bamu sorry buddy for the late reply - yea sure not taking everything too seriously just wrote the analysis based on the available common info. I'm sure you won't give anything away but if you clearly understood that its a clean sheet design, its not possible for it to have the base configuration of the J-35... just my speculation.

Then the designs offers very little advantages versus the requirements.
One can say that the KFX may be aiming for frontal stealth only but when you consider its threat matrix(long rang over China, NK with antiquated systems or Japan over long sea ranges) it is different to ours where we have tens of sensors looking our way and over a very short distance.