Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

This is not only abysmal for the country's development but also worrying for Project Azm. With the sheer scale and complexity, the number of subsystems will be well beyond PAC's ability to build, particularly if they are over ambitious, this could potentially cause Azm to fail.

If the ideal was to develop an original jet, then in all likelihood, that's long over. The PAF will likely roll into the FC-31. The actual groundwork for an effective original design simply isn't there. Sure the innate ability might be there, but the SOE set up, institutional arrangements, policies, etc are all out of sync or underwhelming.

Simply, a good sign of the bare minimum to pull such a feat off is in Turkey. Yet the gap between Turkey and Pakistan in terms of policy, genuine R&D investment, horizontal integration, etc is huge. Simple terms, one is on track to making its own turboshaft engine, the other is scurrying to China because Uncle Sam set up a fence.

That said, once you set the right policies and implementation frameworks, it need not take that much time to develop key inputs. For Pak, 15 years is a good bet, and while it seems like a lot, in the context of countries, it's not much time.

Ideally, we should course correct today, but roll into the FC-31 anyways. The FC-31 will manage the urgent manned next gen fighter need, but we can use the next 15 years from now to give R&D lots of breathing room to grow. In that 15 years, we can develop the inputs for advanced drones, new types of A2A and A2G weapons, etc.

 

[JamD]

This is not only abysmal for the country's development but also worrying for Project Azm. With the sheer scale and complexity, the number of subsystems will be well beyond PAC's ability to build, particularly if they are over ambitious, this could potentially cause Azm to fail.

Absolutely right. On one hand there is this level of vertical integration so SOEs can claim everything is indigenous, on the other hand our products are not competitive and the forces end up having to import foreign replacements (often Chinese). Ironic.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Absolutely right. On one hand there is this level of vertical integration so SOEs can claim everything is indigenous, on the other hand our products are not competitive and the forces end up having to import foreign replacements (often Chinese). Ironic.

I wonder ... did military control also hamper our ability to indigenously develop and build large nuclear reactors? I was reading Eating Grass; it seemed that things were humming along on the reactor development front quite nicely right until the late 1980s. Sure, the sanctions starting weighing in, but we then ordered a spate of Chinese nuclear reactors out of the blue (?) for our energy needs.

 

[Safriz]

I wonder ... did military control also hamper our ability to indigenously develop and build large nuclear reactors? I was reading Eating Grass; it seemed that things were humming along on the reactor development front quite nicely right until the late 1980s. Sure, the sanctions starting weighing in, but we then ordered a spate of Chinese nuclear reactors out of the blue (?) for our energy needs.

More to do with 1979 start of Soviet Afghan war.

 

[Syed1.]

Seems like we might have bitten off more than we can chew. Just buying a Chinese jet and painting it in PAF colors is no achievement.

 

[Armchair]

Seems like we might have bitten off more than we can chew. Just buying a Chinese jet and painting it in PAF colors is no achievement.

It doesn't have to be that way. With the JF-17 Block 3 subsystems, we are on par with basic 5th gen capability - data fusion, AESA, advanced data links, EW. All that is needed is a new airframe and a more powerful engine. The latter is readily available with the now mature WS-10/WS-15 developments.

If the ideal was to develop an original jet, then in all likelihood, that's long over. The PAF will likely roll into the FC-31. The actual groundwork for an effective original design simply isn't there. Sure the innate ability might be there, but the SOE set up, institutional arrangements, policies, etc are all out of sync or underwhelming.

Simply, a good sign of the bare minimum to pull such a feat off is in Turkey. Yet the gap between Turkey and Pakistan in terms of policy, genuine R&D investment, horizontal integration, etc is huge. Simple terms, one is on track to making its own turboshaft engine, the other is scurrying to China because Uncle Sam set up a fence.

That said, once you set the right policies and implementation frameworks, it need not take that much time to develop key inputs. For Pak, 15 years is a good bet, and while it seems like a lot, in the context of countries, it's not much time.

Ideally, we should course correct today, but roll into the FC-31 anyways. The FC-31 will manage the urgent manned next gen fighter need, but we can use the next 15 years from now to give R&D lots of breathing room to grow. In that 15 years, we can develop the inputs for advanced drones, new types of A2A and A2G weapons, etc.

I fear it will be a big step backwards for Pakistan to buy the J-35, in terms of local indigeneous development. If it happened, the cause would be 1) overambition 2) incompetence of project management 3) organizational inefficiency.

 

[I S I]

I knew this was an over ambitious project from the start. In the end, they gonna paint Pakistan flag on J31 or anything Chinese.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I for one am glad PAF is setting its goals very high, and beyond its current capacity. That means even if it ends up attaining only some of its set targets that will be better than aiming for what we can achieve now. PAF and Pakistan needs failures to learn from and grow instead of finding an easy way out in life and everything else.

 

[JamD]

Looking at the one jig piece at PAC, I don't think our public enterprises can stomach that capacity. This is where having the private sector looped in essential, but alas, I'm sure our decision makers will look outside, again, and again, and again. Help others, not our own, but call our own lazy, useless, etc..

Some good news to mix things up

http://pakaero.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/January-2020-Vol-01.pdf

 

[Armchair]

Some good news to mix things up
View attachment 648405
http://pakaero.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/January-2020-Vol-01.pdf

This is decent stuff. Good progress from the Agusta 90B days when the French needed to help Pakistan figure out how to build jigs.

 

[Deino]

It doesn't have to be that way. With the JF-17 Block 3 subsystems, we are on par with basic 5th gen capability - data fusion, AESA, advanced data links, EW. All that is needed is a new airframe and a more powerful engine. The latter is readily available with the now mature WS-10/WS-15 developments.

One again ... the WS-10 and even more the WS-15 are out of reach for Pakistan, so forget this in the same way there won't ever be a J-15 or J-16 in PAF-colours or even a twin-engined Super-JF-17.

I fear it will be a big step backwards for Pakistan to buy the J-35, in terms of local indigeneous development. If it happened, the cause would be 1) overambition 2) incompetence of project management 3) organizational inefficiency.

Indeed, for the first time I agree ... in the same way Germany will never ever again develop and build a true fifth or even sixth generation fighter regardless their vastly greater experience and availability to missing systems on the open Western market, such a type alone in terms of Pakistan "indigeneous development" is anyway on the edge of being overambitious.

 

[zhxy]

J-31 is a good fighter. It's not on the same level as the J-20 but it is definitely better than the J-10. China and Pakistan can support ShenYang. The future of J-31 will replace J-10 and JF-17 in the two countries

 

[IceCold]

J-31 is a good fighter. It's not on the same level as the J-20 but it is definitely better than the J-10. China and Pakistan can support ShenYang. The future of J-31 will replace J-10 and JF-17 in the two countries

We have our own project to work upon. J-31 can be a test bed but ultimately it will be the Azm that will become the tip of the spear for PAF. Not J-31

 

[Armchair]

J-31 is a good fighter. It's not on the same level as the J-20 but it is definitely better than the J-10. China and Pakistan can support ShenYang. The future of J-31 will replace J-10 and JF-17 in the two countries

I actually believe (from my limited knowledge of aerodynamics) that the J-10 is superior aerodynamically to the J-31. I say this because of some variables like:

1. Superior wing loading
2. Delta canard design

 

[Silicon0000]

One again ... the WS-10 and even more the WS-15 are out of reach for Pakistan, so forget this in the same way there won't ever be a J-15 or J-16 in PAF-colours or even a twin-engined Super-JF-17.




Indeed, for the first time I agree ... in the same way Germany will never ever again develop and build a true fifth or even sixth generation fighter regardless their vastly greater experience and availability to missing systems on the open Western market, such a type alone in terms of Pakistan "indigeneous development" is anyway on the edge of being overambitious.

AZM will be as indigenous as JF17 is ........ Except for some change in %age