Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[ShaikhKamal]

Please elaborate in detail. I am sure you are holding back a lot of information on this or you don't know anything in regard to PAC participation into manufacturing of JF-17.

Manufacturing involves production of nearly all the parts in the territory of the country. Even the R&D, design, development, initial test units of JF-17 was not done in the territory of Pakistan. Pakistan manufactures limited number of the parts and our manufacture percentage is rising slowly.

 

[The Eagle]

Manufacturing involves production of nearly all the parts in the territory of the country. Even the R&D, design, development, initial test units of JF-17 was not done in the territory of Pakistan. Pakistan manufactures limited number of the parts and our manufacture percentage is rising slowly.

Mention the current state of participation by PAC into JF-17 program. Indeed, we didn't have such infrastructure at the time when JF-17 was into making.

 

[iFFe]

Exactly ! Even the JF-17 is assembled and not manufactured. You need research and development to design, then develop and build factories to build parts for which you need subsystem suppliers. The whole supply chain will take at least a decade to develop. Best option for Pakistan is to modify J-31 as JF-31. I would like the PAC Pakistan Aeronautical Complex to became PAC Pakistan Aircraft Corporation as an government owned company.

Manufacturing involves production of nearly all the parts in the territory of the country. Even the R&D, design, development, initial test units of JF-17 was not done in the territory of Pakistan. Pakistan manufactures limited number of the parts and our manufacture percentage is rising slowly.

If I take what you said as requirement to the word... then now a days even Boeing and Airbus do not build all parts within a specific territory or country or even continent... hell... they also source a bunch of parts from China and India... That doesn't mean they don't have the know how... PAC has come a long way and yes there is still a long long long and even longer way to go...

So if you are tired brother than no issue please take a break, have some rest... But the ones who want to move on, and do something, let them do so...

This is a great initiative from PAC even if it take 20 years to achieve they should stay on top of it and get it done. There should be something like that done 50 years back... However, our academia need to find a way to participate into these projects... I'm not sure what role they play, if any...

I remember in one of the talks Michio Kaku had and he said something like if a country want to advance, as in, improve its education, economy, industry, etc. They should start a space program. Because it will bring forth all the challenges they need to overcome in order to improve education, economy, etc... If you look at the world you will find countries who are rising up at the moment are the one who started space program.

 

[BATMAN]

Project need billions of dollars our economy is suffering by our genius economist we sud have somthing advance than jf 17 and this complex sud have been working on engines or more complex technologies, we are talking 20 years from now atleast.
education cities we need who will help our nation defence.

If we had Musharraf all those years, Pakistan would already be one of Asia top performing country. Project AZM would have been running with all cylinders.

 

[ShaikhKamal]

So if you are tired brother than no issue please take a break, have some rest... But the ones who want to move on, and do something, let them do so...

Boeing was designing and manufacturing nearly all of their parts in the USA. When you sell your planes to economic region like European Union, China and Russian they want some of the parts to be built in their countries/region before they will place huge orders. Boeing created their world wide supply chain due to this pressure and also to lower costs. Both Boeing and Airbus has assembly plants and part suppliers in China since it is a huge market for their aircraft. Pakistan bought three Agosta-class submarines from France and insisted that two must be assembled in Karachi.

 

[iFFe]

Boeing was designing and manufacturing nearly all of their parts in the USA. When you sell your planes to economic region like European Union, China and Russian they want some of the parts to be built in their countries/region before they will place huge orders. Boeing created their world wide supply chain due to this pressure and also to lower costs. Both Boeing and Airbus has assembly plants and part suppliers in China since it is a huge market for their aircraft. Pakistan bought three Agosta-class submarines from France and insisted that two must be assembled in Karachi.

My friend, You are correct!... But you did not get my point which I was trying to relay.

 

[Khanivore]

In my opinion, PAC should instead work on PAF-specific avionics, subsystems and weapon systems but leave the airframe and engine side of work to the Chinese. Also do some collab. with the Turks and the South Africans. This would be the best way to go forward, much like what Israel's IAI always did and does.

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

If we had Musharraf all those years, Pakistan would already be one of Asia top performing country. Project AZM would have been running with all cylinders.

bhai he brought Pm shaukat Aziz best world Banker where is he now? he even took states gifts he even said in his CV another designate added as PM of Pakistan.
he made blunders too but yes reserves were much better.

 

[tkmd]

bhai he brought Pm shaukat Aziz best world Banker where is he now? he even took states gifts he even said in his CV another designate added as PM of Pakistan.
he made blunders too but yes reserves were much better.

reserves were better bc we were doing what America wanted and getting $$$ for it. musharraf was an unmitigated disaster for pakistan. and the fact that so many in this forum still think he was good is evidence of why we are in the state we are in. people won't save pakistan. strong state institutions with experienced, competent servants will. not one random guy with a gun.

Musharraf comitted treason against the constitution of Pakistan, started a undercover war without any authorization, enriched himself and his cronies for 10 years then ran away to dubai when the people started marching against him.

Had he been stopped by the other corps commanders we would be ten years ahead of where we are now in terms of democratic governance and institutional maturity.

 

[JamD]

Disclaimer: What follows is speculation based upon my personal opinions only.

I think there is a strong possibility that PAF will go for a delta-wing design for Azm. My reasons are

1. Pakistan does not seem to have a long-term plan for a separate strike platform. This is evident from the recent purchase of Mirages from Egypt. I don't believe that the PAF plans to get any J-10s or whatever. The Mirages will eventually run out of all life and the JF-17 is not suitable for this job. It is likely that PAF would want Azm to have significant strike capability.
2. It is conceivable that it would be cheaper in the long run to give Azm two roles: strike and air-superiority, as opposed to having Azm for air-superiority and another platform for strike. For strike role Azm can carry munitions on external hardpoints.
3. Azm could be perform strategic strike roles as well, something that the JF-17 is unable to do. PAF would want this because it is a great asset to be able to integrate munitions of your choice. This is something we do for the JF-17 but JF-17 has size constraints.
4. This could also be used for naval-strike missions.

I could be entirely wrong as well but if I had to guess, Azm will be like a smaller J-20.

 

[Quwa]

Disclaimer: What follows is speculation based upon my personal opinions only.

I think there is a strong possibility that PAF will go for a delta-wing design for Azm. My reasons are

1. Pakistan does not seem to have a long-term plan for a separate strike platform. This is evident from the recent purchase of Mirages from Egypt. I don't believe that the PAF plans to get any J-10s or whatever. The Mirages will eventually run out of all life and the JF-17 is not suitable for this job. It is likely that PAF would want Azm to have significant strike capability.
2. It is conceivable that it would be cheaper in the long run to give Azm two roles: strike and air-superiority, as opposed to having Azm for air-superiority and another platform for strike. For strike role Azm can carry munitions on external hardpoints.
3. Azm could be perform strategic strike roles as well, something that the JF-17 is unable to do. PAF would want this because it is a great asset to be able to integrate munitions of your choice. This is something we do for the JF-17 but JF-17 has size constraints.
4. This could also be used for naval-strike missions.

I could be entirely wrong as well but if I had to guess, Azm will be like a smaller J-20.

I suspect the same. If anything, I think the PAF is also taking a page out of Saab's playbook by concentrating the multi-role -- and fleet-builder -- element to the JF-17 (analogous to the Gripen E/F).

So while the JF-17 Block-I/II/III are comparatively modest in scope, I'm inclined to believe that we will see continued development through a Block-IV, V, and VI that might incorporate a new engine, composites, and get a minor weight/spec increase.

Basically, rely on some JF-17 variant to handle most roles and, in turn, confer specialist and marquee roles -- i.e., strike, OCA, maritime ops, SEAD/DEAD, etc -- to Azm.

Ultimately, the idea would be to have Azm supplant the F-16 through the 2030s and 2040s, and in parallel, have a late stage JF-17 fill in on the probable scenario we can't afford to field enough Azm fighters...

The 'smaller J-20' thing might also feed into a potential joint-PAC-CAC/601 project, and that case, it wouldn't surprise me if we see them use the lessons gleaned from both J-20 and J-10 where relevant (i.e., medium-weight single-engine, low-RCS, composites, digital FBW, etc) with obvious NGF elements via sensor fusion et. al.

 

[Fledgingwings]

Looks beautiful though,its gonna take time.right now all eyes on block III.

 

[Army research]

I suspect the same. If anything, I think the PAF is also taking a page out of Saab's playbook by concentrating the multi-role -- and fleet-builder -- element to the JF-17 (analogous to the Gripen E/F).

So while the JF-17 Block-I/II/III are comparatively modest in scope, I'm inclined to believe that we will see continued development through a Block-IV, V, and VI that might incorporate a new engine, composites, and get a minor weight/spec increase.

Basically, rely on some JF-17 variant to handle most roles and, in turn, confer specialist and marquee roles -- i.e., strike, OCA, maritime ops, SEAD/DEAD, etc -- to Azm.

Ultimately, the idea would be to have Azm supplant the F-16 through the 2030s and 2040s, and in parallel, have a late stage JF-17 fill in on the probable scenario we can't afford to field enough Azm fighters...

The 'smaller J-20' thing might also feed into a potential joint-PAC-CAC/601 project, and that case, it wouldn't surprise me if we see them use the lessons gleaned from both J-20 and J-10 where relevant (i.e., medium-weight single-engine, low-RCS, composites, digital FBW, etc) with obvious NGF elements via sensor fusion et. al.

It's very very likely to be dual engine

 

[Kabotar]

I suspect the same. If anything, I think the PAF is also taking a page out of Saab's playbook by concentrating the multi-role -- and fleet-builder -- element to the JF-17 (analogous to the Gripen E/F).

So while the JF-17 Block-I/II/III are comparatively modest in scope, I'm inclined to believe that we will see continued development through a Block-IV, V, and VI that might incorporate a new engine, composites, and get a minor weight/spec increase.

Basically, rely on some JF-17 variant to handle most roles and, in turn, confer specialist and marquee roles -- i.e., strike, OCA, maritime ops, SEAD/DEAD, etc -- to Azm.

Ultimately, the idea would be to have Azm supplant the F-16 through the 2030s and 2040s, and in parallel, have a late stage JF-17 fill in on the probable scenario we can't afford to field enough Azm fighters...

The 'smaller J-20' thing might also feed into a potential joint-PAC-CAC/601 project, and that case, it wouldn't surprise me if we see them use the lessons gleaned from both J-20 and J-10 where relevant (i.e., medium-weight single-engine, low-RCS, composites, digital FBW, etc) with obvious NGF elements via sensor fusion et. al.

Wouldn't that make AZM cost ineffective program if the production run is for only 100 copies. There was an interview in which ACM Sohail Aman said that PAF was in talks with two countries to buy 5th gens plans.

 

[JamD]

It's very very likely to be dual engine

In my opinion it will be a really hard decision to make. On one hand two engines give you the ability to carry more payload, give you redundancy. Also, you could keep the engines common with the Jf-17. On the other hand you are making each jet almost a third more expensive (at least) and are increasing the maintenance costs/time.

If Azm was planned to be less than ~60 units then I would think a twin-engine design would be more logical (twin RD-93 I would conjecture). If PAF plans to induct excess of ~110 units then a single-engine design makes more sense.

@Quwa what is your opinion on the matter?