Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[StormBreaker]

It would be really interesting if PAF decides to take Thunder back on tables, involve Turks and start working on it to become a 5th Gen medium weight. We can get attention from several other interested parties as well. Only Russia once planned for a light weight 5th Gen platform for UAEAF. Don’t know what happened then

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

We have zero industrialization in the country. We will buy a smokey engine from China, avionics from France, software will be written by the Chinese. We cannot make our air to air missiles or radars.

Even if we are able to make a flying machine, the stealth technology, the jamming technology, special weapons, special targeting pods, night time tracking and communication systems are all beyond Pakistan's grasp and for that we need backing of an economic and technological superpower like China, Russia or USA.

Its better to buy 5th gen fighters from the Chinese on deferred payment in the coming years.

In reality it may take 2 decades to make it operational, by that time 6th gen jets would be introduced.
I always wanted Pakistan to improve incrementally. Its difficult togo from JF17 to 5th gen. Instead we should have focused on a 4.5++ gen, with stealth properties. Something that could replace F16s. Call it a JF19, a medium weight fighter with higher payload and endurance. We could have an integrated network with JF17 and other ground and air assets. We could have instead bought 5th gen from china. Combining all the knowledge of our own 4.5++ and a chinese 5th gen, we could then proceed to a 6th gen indigenous fighter.

Other than Pakistan's own JF-17 Thunders, PAF has not acquired another foreign platform since 1988. That's 31 years.

And, PAF has ruled out adding another foreign platform to it's air force.

How is it that Pakistan has managed to produce 121 JF-17 Thunders for its own air force when the economic situation of the nation tells us, it shouldn't even be possible for a third world country like Pakistan?

The Block-3 will be more advanced than any of the F-16s in Pakistan's inventory. How is that even possible for a third world country like Pakistan which shouldn't have the industrial base for it? Why is it that no one has even seen a single photo of the Block-3 yet but it'll be with PAF from March 2020 onwards?

Pakistan is committed, determined and ambitious enough to build its own fifth generation fighter and it will do it Insha'Allah.

 

[StormBreaker]

Hi,

They stole it as much as they could---. Don't you hear the US congress getting mad at the chinese and Trump as well---. 5-10 years ago that used to be 'the news'.

Now stealing US technology and building on it are two different things---. You steal a gold coin from the Dragon's Tresure---that is one thing---but to spend it is another thing---.

The US Threated the chinese---" we know you stole our F35 technology and made an aircraft out of it---but if you proceeded any further than that we will destroy all your aircraft manufacturing factories "---.

That is why you don't see much of progress made on the J31 after the first flights---.

The americans have a unique habbit---if they want to---they would let you invest heavily into it till the last moment and then come down hard on you----.

China had to swallow the bitter pill---keep on playing with the J20---.

Now OTOH---if pakistan wants to do something with the J31---it will---pakistan is head strong enough if need be---.

A more realistic supposition could be that the Chinese boycott of multiple imports could have involved FC-31 as well. How can USA make the freaking mistake of even THINKING to hit China

 

[Ultima Thule]

The real deal isn’t WS-15 rather WS-19, which will be ultimate engine for J-20

Na brother WS-15 is intended for J-20 from day one, WS-19 for medium weight fighter like J-31

 

[StormBreaker]

Other than Pakistan's own JF-17 Thunders, PAF has not acquired another foreign platform since 1988. That's 31 years.

And, PAF has ruled out adding another foreign platform to it's platform.

How is it that Pakistan has managed to produce 121 JF-17 Thunders for its own air force when the economic situation of the nation tells us, it shouldn't even be possible for a third world country like Pakistan?

The Block-3 will be more advanced than any of the F-16s in Pakistan's inventory. How is that even possible for a third world country like Pakistan which shouldn't have the industrial base for it? Why is it that no one has even seen a single photo of the Block-3 yet but it'll be with PAF from March 2020 onwards?

Pakistan is committed, determined and ambitious enough to build its own fifth generation fighter and it will do it Insha'Allah.

Yes, ye secracy moo bolta saboot hai ke our armed forces are professional and good at sandboxing it’s development from public domain which is NECESSARY.

LET THE GANGUS GUESS AND GUESS AND CRY

 

[Ultima Thule]

AZM will be a twin heavy, but wouldn’ta twin heavy cost heavily per unit and maintenance? PAF will maintain a raptor sized fleet of AZM at most while we would still need a single engine 5+gen like F-35 is to USA. For that, we must work with turkey as a joint project and involve more countries

No AZM will not be heavy but most probably Medium weight jet

 

[StormBreaker]

Na brother WS-15 is intended for J-20 from day one, WS-19 for medium weight fighter like J-31

@Deino , wasn’t WS-20 which was for J-20(?) renamed to WS-19? And what is this WS-15 fuss ?
WS-13E was intended for Medium weight FC-31 @seven0seven

No AZM will not be heavy but most probably Medium weight jet

It would be a setback to have a medium weight twin. Twin ka poora paisa husool karna hai to heavy banao. Look at the internal bay capacity of J-20 and F-22. They are heavies. Having a medium would restrict your 5th gen capabilities with less payload in the bays and this forcing you to mount outside compromising RCS. Our environment demands a Heavy, Low RCS such as J-20, so AZM must go that route.

 

[araz]

The fall is prevailing from decades buddy

Sorry. Read my full post and reply and then we can discuss. I would disagree with your notion. Believe me buying off the shelf no longer remains the SOLE option. We are in a much better positio than where we were in the 90s or 00s.
A

 

[Darth Vader]

Man of you are saying Pakistan Should go for 6th Gen.
Problem is with 5TH gen Stealth was the game but for 6th Gen no body really knows as we dont have benchmark for that.
Pakistan will need help and alot from Turkey, China South Africa and Italy are we placed where Pakistan can get some.
Pakistan needs to setup the base industry 1st which can support the continues production and upgrade for these birds.
Pakistan needs Strong AI presence for 5th Gen and 6th Gen aircrafts

 

[Wa Muhammada]

Pakistan is Working On Its Own 5th-Gen Stealth Fighter Jet
Posted 2 days ago by Sajawal Rehman

• According to the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production’s (MoDP) yearbook for 2017-2018, the first of four cycles of conceptual design phase has been completed by the Aviation Research, Innovation, and Development (AvRID) Secretariat.
  
  The first configuration that was designed based on the challenging performance requirements of PAF will go through three more cycles within the conceptual design using higher fidelity analysis tools and codes.
  
  In an interview with a defense publication, Jane’s Defense Weekly, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan told that he doesn’t expect the stealth jet to be operational for another decade. The possible concept/design of the fifth-generation fighter first appeared in the form of a tail art on PAF’s C-130B, participating in RIAT 2019.
  
  
  
  
  Via Twitter@DefencedotPak
  According to defense analysts, the platform will be a successor to F-16A/B Block-15s, Mirage III and Mirage 5 with better range and payload carrying capacity compared to JF-17 Thunder jets and ‘optimized for offensive counter-air (OCA), maritime, and deep-strike platforms’.
  
  The Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for the platform depict it as a “twin-engine single-seater, boasting the likes of super-cruise and laser weapons (directed energy weapons).”
  
  Some reports have it that China is also likely to share its Chengdu J-20 technology with Pakistan, however, these are all based on speculations considering the two countries haven’t shared any details on the possibility.
  
  Note: The image is only for illustration purposes.
  
  What are your thoughts on the Fifth Gen Stealth Fighter Jet program? Let us know in the comments section.

ما شاء الله

&

ان شاء الله

May Allah ta’ala protect our country

 

[Ultima Thule]

@Deino , wasn’t WS-20 which was for J-20(?) renamed to WS-19? And what is this WS-15 fuss ?
WS-13E was intended for Medium weight FC-31 @seven0seven

Oh bhai you read the history of J-20 first then talk, WS-20 high bypass version of WS-10 which specifically built/intended for Y-20, WS-15 solely intended for J-20, Its in the same class or better than F-119 or F-135 engines for F-22/F-35
WS-19 is a development (upgrades of WS-13) and WS-19 will be a Medium thrust engine in the league of F-414/EF-200 for F/A 18 E/F, EF-2000 respectively, WS-19 is not intended for heavy jet like J-20

 

[StormBreaker]

Sorry. Read my full post a d reply and then we can discuss. I would disagree with your notion. Believe me buying off the shelf no longer remains the SOLE option.
A

You misunderstood my context. I didn’t recommend buying off the shelf. I did read your post. And you are to the point...
The fall you are suggesting is a Iran type, where you are all alone, striving to go further & further. Now, that is what makes you learn deeper into things.

Looking at the cycle of achievements history of PAF, in terms of research, proves the dedication and future plans. For now, we got assistance from China at 4-4.5Gen level. But future definitely is ours in terms of avionics, missiles and other components. PAF is not short sighted. And i am proud of that.

 

[Ultima Thule]

It would be a setback to have a medium weight twin. Twin ka poora paisa husool karna hai to heavy banao. Look at the internal bay capacity of J-20 and F-22. They are heavies. Having a medium would restrict your 5th gen capabilities with less payload in the bays and this forcing you to mount outside compromising RCS. Our environment demands a Heavy, Low RCS such as J-20, so AZM must go that route.

oh bhai medium is enough for our needs, building fighter jets like F-22/J-20 will take lots of time and mature aerospace industries which we haven't, AZM will have only one Mission (air superiority), with 4 BVR , 2 SRAAM it will be enough for defense of Pakistan (air defense) as for attacking deep inside the enemy will be Babar from ground and may be RA'Ad from AZM from outside HP which will be well inside Pakistani airspace like over SARGHODA aur from Baluchistan, and look USA develop there F-22 ATF program started in 1980 and completed/induction of F-22 in 2005, F-22 development period spans 25 year and 60 billion $$ of investment, can Pakistan afford this kind of investment of time and money

 

[StormBreaker]

oh bhai medium is enough for our needs, building fighter jets like F-22/J-20 will take lots of time and mature aerospace industries which we haven't, AZM will have only one Mission (air superiority), with 4 BVR , 2 SRAAM it will be enough for defense of Pakistan (air defense) as for attacking deep inside the enemy will be Babar from ground and may be RA'Ad from AZM from outside HP which will be well inside Pakistani airspace like over SARGHODA aur from Baluchistan, and look USA develop there F-22 ATF program started in 1980 and completed/induction of F-22 in 2005, F-22 development period spans 25 year and 60 billion $$ of investment, can Pakistan afford this kind of investment of time and money

Change in doctrines in future will result in change of plans for AZM. A deep strike doctrine would mean a Heavy 5+Gen which is a NEED. Strategic forces unless go Hypersonic/Supersonic throughout the journey (not terminal phase) , will remain useful. Otherwise, advancements in Air defenses will eventually make all these sub sonics obsolete. However, in our case, BABUR/RAAD are really quite useful thanks to low rcs design and LOW skimming since enemy is next door.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Change in doctrines in future will result in change of plans for AZM. A deep strike doctrine would mean a Heavy 5+Gen which is a NEED. Strategic forces unless go Hypersonic/Supersonic throughout the journey (not terminal phase) , will remain useful. Otherwise, advancements in Air defenses will eventually make all these sub sonics obsolete. However, in our case, BABUR/RAAD are really quite useful thanks to low rcs design and LOW skimming since enemy is next door.

We have different doctrine then China/Russia which relying on speed to overwhelm western defenses, we more focusing more on RCS reduction tech and subsonic and precision than speed, supersonic missiles especially Anti ship has less reaction time then subsonic one but disadvantages of Supersonic/Hpersonic Missiles that they will detected by Hundreds of Miles away from the targets by Radars and IR sensors there are many SAMs that could intercept supersonic missiles like like LY-80 we have, USN has RAM and Evolved Sea sparrow/ UK developing CAMM and Chinese have FL-3000N for Intercepting supersonic anti ship missiles, and supersonic anti ship Cruise missiles are not a true sea skimmer