Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Talon]

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The thing that annoys me is Why did you put PAFA insignia in the picture.What's it got to do with FGFA,you should have put PAC insignia.No?

 

[Ali_Baba]

Pakistan has yet to design and manufacture a single homegrown plane for its military, no prop based trainer, no trainer jet, no fast jet. For each of these, Pakistan has done a small part of collaboration, but focused on manufacturing. From this lack of experience, Pakistans wants to then do a home grown 5th stealth plane ?

Wouldnt Pakistan be better off designing a replacement for the Mushtaq and certifying it ? Learning from that process and then working on a K8 replacement, then moving onto a fast jet ?? Odd flow if you ask me, and one for failure ...

 

[ARMalik]

Pakistan has yet to design and manufacture a single homegrown plane for its military, no prop based trainer, no trainer jet, no fast jet. For each of these, Pakistan has done a small part of collaboration, but focused on manufacturing. From this lack of experience, Pakistans wants to then do a home grown 5th stealth plane ?

Wouldnt Pakistan be better off designing a replacement for the Mushtaq and certifying it ? Learning from that process and then working on a K8 replacement, then moving onto a fast jet ?? Odd flow if you ask me, and one for failure ...

To be honest, this is one arrogant and Ignorant post Mr Baba. What do think JF-17 project is?

 

[Ali_Baba]

To be honest, this is one arrogant and Ignorant post Mr Baba. What do think JF-17 project is?

Nothing arrogant about it, it is one thing to be a junior partner(lets not kid ourselves here) on the JF17 programme, and another to be responsible to develop an entire ecosystem of technology to support the build of an aircraft, let along the technology required to pull off a 5th gen aircraft. Pakistan engineers would have participated in every aspect of the JF17 programme, but it is one thing to be lead by someone, and another to lead from the front.

Does Pakistan, right now have the industrial, technological and scientific ability to design, manufacture and deliver something like a Pilatus PC-7 ? I dont think so, there is nothing to suggest that Pakistan has the design skills? Do you think Pakistan can?

What homegrown aviation products does Pakistan have? Some UAVs, and strategic products like Nasr, Ra'ad and Babur.

Do not confuse local manufacturing, with local design abilities, they are different things....

I would love to be proved otherwise.

 

[ziaulislam]

Nothing arrogant about it, it is one thing to be a junior partner(lets not kid ourselves here) on the JF17 programme, and another to be responsible to develop an entire ecosystem of technology to support the build of an aircraft, let along the technology required to pull off a 5th gen aircraft.

Does Pakistan, right now have the industrial, technological and scientific ability to design, manufacture and deliver something like a Pilatus PC-7 ? I dont think so, there is nothing to suggest that Pakistan has the design skills? Do you think Pakistan can?

What homegrown aviation products does Pakistan have? Some UAVs, and strategic products like Nasr, Ra'ad and Babur.

I would love to be proved otherwise.

PC 7 yes..done and dusted...its not Afghanistan, even Bangladesh or sri lanka can build that if they want to ...
fifth gen NO...
can they build a fifth gen with co operation, JVs and importing subsystems..of course..whats JF17?..everyone will sell you subsystems, italy, china, south africa, Korea & turkey all have enough subsystems to buy from and do a licence production

the issue is money PAF will need atleast 10b dollars concomitant to reach to production stage

 

[帅的一匹]

a mini J20 design cooperation with Chengdu, as I had expected.

if the design comes with canards, then it's from Chengdu.

PC 7 yes..done and dusted...its not Afghanistan, even Bangladesh or sri lanka can build that if they want to ...
fifth gen NO...
can they build a fifth gen with co operation, JVs and importing subsystems..of course..whats JF17?..everyone will sell you subsystems, italy, china, south africa, Korea & turkey all have enough subsystems to buy from and do a licence production

the issue is money PAF will need atleast 10b dollars concomitant to reach to production stage

10 billions are too much for Pakistan

 

[AsifIjaz]

Jf17 was always a meter or so less taller than it should have been from the get go. But a decade ago we were barely able to get rd93 hence the current design was amongst the best we (pac and cac) could come up with. Now if rd93ma gives us fadec and thus a desirable mtbo with a 15kN plus dry thirst then un freezing the design and increasing the wingspan to accommodate a bigger / taller landing gear and corresponding fuselage changes shud be enough to make jf17 easily compete if not beat a gripen NG or a f16 viper. (This jf17 shud but still be as common to the current thunders as possible as otherwise why not go for j10.)
This a tall claim with an aesa in block 3, plus more composites, fbw and now a hypothetical better engine and an increase in wing area will ultimately mean increase loiter time, increase payload and more hard points and lastly more space / energy available for ecm/elint will make the new thunders sit comfortably between the current ones and the expected aircraft via azm project after the year 2030.

The other way around is plausible too...

The FGFA will be a high-cost, high-complexity platform. It's unlikely the PAF will ever crank up the production of that jet past 8-12 per year. So, the need for a lower cost supplement will always be there, and the most natural successor to current JF-17s would be future JF-17 variants.

I think the next chapter for the JF-17 will be similar to what Saab did with the Gripen E/F and what India is now doing with the Tejas Mk2. You basically re-open/unfreeze the designs, and then enlarge them, add a new type of engine, increase payload and range, and look at other ideas (e.g., low-observable characteristics, etc).

Anyways, if Azm achieves the PAF's ASR, then we're talking about a engine with supercruising capability. Once it clears on Azm, the PAF can re-apply that same engine to a JF-17 NG (that would replace the Block-IIIs, so we're talking about a late model variant).

 

[KapitaanAli]

PC 7 yes..done and dusted...its not Afghanistan, even Bangladesh or sri lanka can build that if they want to ...

None of these countries can do it. Turkey is trying for 15 years and is yet to have an inductable one. Turkey has enough experience and expertise in production. Development is something else.

It's sad that those who speak the truth are simply buried in feel good posts.

 

[araz]

Nothing arrogant about it, it is one thing to be a junior partner(lets not kid ourselves here) on the JF17 programme, and another to be responsible to develop an entire ecosystem of technology to support the build of an aircraft, let along the technology required to pull off a 5th gen aircraft. Pakistan engineers would have participated in every aspect of the JF17 programme, but it is one thing to be lead by someone, and another to lead from the front.

Does Pakistan, right now have the industrial, technological and scientific ability to design, manufacture and deliver something like a Pilatus PC-7 ? I dont think so, there is nothing to suggest that Pakistan has the design skills? Do you think Pakistan can?

What homegrown aviation products does Pakistan have? Some UAVs, and strategic products like Nasr, Ra'ad and Babur.

Do not confuse local manufacturing, with local design abilities, they are different things....

I would love to be proved otherwise.

All that we have to go by is that the PAF Bigwigs seem pretty certain they can do it. Intense collaboration is currently ongoing with the Turks( I gather the Chinese are more interested in selling rather than collaborating). The first phase of design have been completed and it will take 3 more phases before we go onto prototype building. No one knows what is going to happen in the future. We may or may not succeed and fall back into the laps of the Chinese/Turks to buy one of their off the shelf products. However you will never know till they have tried their best and seen what they can achieve. All if not most doors to fighter acquisition are fast closing for us due to prohibitive prices and conditions. Our choice is between a self designed and produced platform which may not be the best but be in the ball park figure or be someone's lap poodle and never know what it is like to fly as a free bird.
Everything that you are saying is true based on publically available information. However till the true story of PAC's contribution to JFT comes out we will not know what has been the true contribution of PAC/PAF and we will continue to wonder.
If it is a choice between being a lap poodle or a fighting dog I would rather be the latter than the former. Seems PAF/PAC wants to become the latter too.
Regards
A

None of these countries can do it. Turkey is trying for 15 years and is yet to have an inductable one. Turkey has enough experience and expertise in production. Development is something else.

It's sad that those who speak the truth are simply buried in feel good posts.

No body is disagreeing with you. You have a right to have an opinion. The thing is we are fresh from developing a 4th generation fighter. The Fighter now has enough indegenous effort and experience of procurement of baseline building material to be able to move on. You can say we will fall others will say we will fly. The proof will be in the pudding. We have to wait 10 years for the result to come out. No one knows what is going on behind closed doors but where there is a will there is a way. It may intially come out as a 4++ Generation fighter which is lo obs and from then on we may develop into something more or finances may mean compromises and even cutting back of the project. The point I am making is we do have to wait to find out and this wholedebate is premature by about 5-10 years as we will not see jack as our proof of what has been achieved.
A

 

[ziaulislam]

None of these countries can do it. Turkey is trying for 15 years and is yet to have an inductable one. Turkey has enough experience and expertise in production. Development is something else.

It's sad that those who speak the truth are simply buried in feel good posts.

huh?
this is what probably is going to happen
china is going to build the air frame...
while avionics and weapons will be sourced from Europe and turkey if Chinese are not upto mark

so you are saying this cant happen?

turkey basically is selling re branded European weapons...

 

[airbus101]

@jupiter2007 people are even doing analysis on your work

i took this picture from twitter, and analysis my own sir.

Please, don't create multiple thread for the subject that already exists and English is official language of Forum having members from all around the world. However, it will be appreciated to share an overview and concluding analysis along with video if you have something new, for the interest of readers.

Regards,

ok

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Pakistan has yet to design and manufacture a single homegrown plane for its military, no prop based trainer, no trainer jet, no fast jet. For each of these, Pakistan has done a small part of collaboration, but focused on manufacturing. From this lack of experience, Pakistans wants to then do a home grown 5th stealth plane ?

Wouldnt Pakistan be better off designing a replacement for the Mushtaq and certifying it ? Learning from that process and then working on a K8 replacement, then moving onto a fast jet ?? Odd flow if you ask me, and one for failure ...

Yet, some Mushrikin folks, with the help from the entire known world, can't still operate a "pigeon"!!! What's about that????

Nothing arrogant about it, it is one thing to be a junior partner(lets not kid ourselves here) on the JF17 programme, and another to be responsible to develop an entire ecosystem of technology to support the build of an aircraft, let along the technology required to pull off a 5th gen aircraft. Pakistan engineers would have participated in every aspect of the JF17 programme, but it is one thing to be lead by someone, and another to lead from the front.

Does Pakistan, right now have the industrial, technological and scientific ability to design, manufacture and deliver something like a Pilatus PC-7 ? I dont think so, there is nothing to suggest that Pakistan has the design skills? Do you think Pakistan can?

What homegrown aviation products does Pakistan have? Some UAVs, and strategic products like Nasr, Ra'ad and Babur.

Do not confuse local manufacturing, with local design abilities, they are different things....

I would love to be proved otherwise.

Yet, enough to put the Hindutva bastards into their right places!!! Indian and BD Muslims have voluntarily become slaves under those bastards....

 

[Ultima Thule]

Yet, enough to put the Hindutva bastards into their right places!!! Indian and BD Muslims have voluntarily become slaves under those bastards....

Common people of BD still live/love with Muslim countries/Pakistan but their govt

 

[Trango Towers]

100% agree with you. China or Turkey can provide help with design.

Why do we need china or turkey when PAF says they don't need help.

Time to help yourself

 

[jupiter2007]

Why do we need china or turkey when PAF says they don't need help.

Time to help yourself

India has all the help they can get but still they are not able to build a decent plane. On Majority of their projects, they took help from several western countries.

We may have the skills and will power but building a aircraft is not like flying a kite.
We do need help and babysitting. If we knew everything, we would not be depending on China. Question we should be asking is what percentage of block3 is being build without the support of China.