Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Syntage]

But 2040 is way too far bahi atleast 2030 should be the target... if we are looking at 2040 why not start 6th gen too ?

We are not leaders bro, we want to fall in in a formation to follow.We don't want to invent anything on our own, we don;t want to work on anything unless and until Indians start working.Copiers and followers don't get stuff on time.By the time the world will get 6th gen fighters in service we will be thinking about what India might be doing at that point and time.I don;t understand one thing about project AZM is, how are we going to make engines on our own?How are we going to make competitive AESA radar?Not atleast for another 10 years for just these 2 crucial components for an aircraft.5 more years for integration & testing.If all goes according to plan, we will get 5th gen aircraft in service around 2040.

Then there is another way.Work with Turkish & Chinese companies for engine, avionics, RAM, Weapons & AESA radar.Collaboration will help in reduced cost of R&D and development, otherwise we don't have such funds.
This will not only reduce the cost but will reduce the development timeframe which is what we need bcoz we don't have extra funds to waste on stop-gap solutions.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

We are not leaders bro, we want to fall in in a formation to follow.We don't want to invent anything on our own, we don;t want to work on anything unless and until Indians start working.Copiers and followers don't get stuff on time.By the time the world will get 6th gen fighters in service we will be thinking about what India might be doing at that point and time.I don;t understand one thing about project AZM is, how are we going to make engines on our own?How are we going to make competitive AESA radar?Not atleast for another 10 years for just these 2 crucial components for an aircraft.5 more years for integration & testing.If all goes according to plan, we will get 5th gen aircraft in service around 2040.

Then there is another way.Work with Turkish & Chinese companies for engine, avionics, RAM, Weapons & AESA radar.Collaboration will help in reduced cost of R&D and development, otherwise we don't have such funds.
This will not only reduce the cost but will reduce the development timeframe which is what we need bcoz we don't have extra funds to waste on stop-gap solutions.

Bro Engine and AESA can be out sourced but others things can be made in Pakistan... but 20 years is too much...

 

[The Raven]

IMHO... this project will go in 1 of 3 ways.

It'll either be the new nuclear program in as far as a long-term effort to genuinely develop and build an indigenous fighter. IMO we won't see the fruits of this vision until 2040, if not later.

Or...

It'll be a front to get a certain long-range, deep-strike capability into Pakistan via China without the US blaming China for destabilizing the region via proliferation. Yes, everyone would know it draws on Chinese technology to a significant degree, but the Chinese can say, 'Pakistan still did most of the heavy lifting, albeit with our bricks and mortar.'

Or...

Both of the above, which would be the best scenario all things considered, but unlikely. If the PAF is dead-set on getting a next-gen fighter before 2040, it's going to be No. 2.

It will most likely follow the same development model as the JF-17 - the PAF will lay down the ASR; however, instead of most of the development work being conducted by China (CAC), as it was for the JF-17, this will instead by conducted by the newly formed units as part of the Aviation City. Any gaps in technology and expertise in R&D will be filled in by Chinese units. In any case, I think it will be a clean sheet design, because we wouldn't need all the technological and R&D infrastructure being developed if it was simply a revamped J-31.

 

[CriticalThought]

Who gets to judge whether their claims to be that are actually so and not just plain loghorrea or self aggrandizing BS?

But then, when we have people who think Khadim Rizvi has greater merit than a true humanitarian such as Edhi.. I’d say let the delusions be. @Deino has much much better validation of his knowledge and research from verified people rather than self fellatio 1’s and 0’s.

When you have deep mathematical knowledge, you can quickly ascertain when someone is posting advanced material vs engaging in loghorrea. This has been my constant complaint on this forum. The moderators are not knowledgeable enough to properly judge the technical merit of posts. Me and others like me want to elevate the level of discussion, and there is no reason why the less informed should form a cartel of mediocracy and actively disparage us and discourage us from posting.

I have yet to see any useful post from Deino on this forum. He maybe well published elsewhere, but he is not contributing to this forum. Let me guess. The benefit you see in him is similar to what you see in Alan Warnes - he can potentially put a good word for Pakistan in the right places. Well, this is just more Pakistaniat (https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistaniat-and-its-remedy.559533/) and one of the reasons why we are laughed upon in the world. Go to any Western nation and try berating them repeatedly over something that is actually wrong. Since most Western societies have low population, people tend to know each other. You will quickly acquire a reputation that will start following you. You will find yourself out of employment on the pretext of being culturally incompatible, not a team player, having communication issues, etc. And this will be the case no matter how intelligent, creative, knowledgeable, and genius you are. All of that will be set aside. We in Pakistan need to learn the right balance between self-respect and self-deprecation. Mr Deino acts like a hoo-haa. I engaged him in a conversation in which he trivialized the JF-17 as a piece of junk or something similar. Conveniently, he has since deleted the post, but he has made his thoughts crystal clear. He does not hold a high opinion of Pakistan or Pakistanis, and he is not increasing our knowledge either. Open your eyes and learn to realize when someone is NOT YOUR FRIEND.

And as usual you must drag in your anti-religious sentiments along with your favorite act of auto-eroticism. Well done, now a highly knowledgeable user has gone. But you don't give a damn, because you want to be seen as the top dog? How would people admire you when someone else knows more than you. So be crass until you hit the right button to drive them away. Tsk tsk.

that technical response was pointless. as relevant as someone wrote an Arabic passage on the Islamic Jurisprudence by Ibn Tamiyah.

agreed with your assessment of (my lack of ) knowledge with the irrelevant rant .
but it was out of scope and unnecessary.

on a lighter note
ritualistic degrading is also hardwired into our national character because another trait of not doing anything and blaming others for our poor image always dictates our behavior. :S

this thread is not about a forum member. so lets not play the game of putting people in place specially those from the west because we will loose out. to be honest other than reverse engineering some salvaged American cruise missiles and splitting the atom (and an assembly plant of JF 17) we don't have much to show heck we cant even address our crippling energy crises.

thanks for engaging. we must continue the healthy disagreements on all subjects

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you lack knowledge, you have no right to label something as irrelevant. And if you insist on doing so, you are one more example of a Pakistani who has been elevated to a position that he is not eligible for. For the record, Rafeh was engaging in extremely accurate and to the point discussion which is exactly relevant for this thread. I am going to respond to his post with my own thoughts.

 

[CriticalThought]

Deino I never meant to offend anyone. I sincerely apologize if I made you feel bad.

My expertise are in theoretical and mathematical analysis. I don't know anything about italian engines or J-15, J-16 and J-20 nor even the Liaoning, Type 055 DDG. Meaning I have not memorized nor I can all those various specialist aerospace/navy systems that are available. I am sure you know them much better than I do. That's true. They are your areas of expertise. So I am never going to argue with you ever on that. I don't even know what kind of air to air missiles are out there. That's a being a product specialist. That's not what design or analysis engineers do. They don't memorize what other engineers have created. But they can create their own.

The person who can cook, does not memorizes what kind of take away food is available out there in the whole world. But he can cook one.

same way, What I can do is to analyze one such system.

That's different than knowing all the types or kinds of aircraft or which missiles goes with what aircraft. I don't know what missiles jf-17 carries. Or what kind of air dropped bombs are out there. You and others here do know them much better than I will ever do.

I am never going to get into those discussion since I never tried to memorize all those things or spend time in learning about a certain already available engine characteristics (but I can if I want to).

These are your and other people's expertise. I will never argue with you on that.

My problems was just that you always implied Pakistan can't even design an original stealth air-frame (see more below on that).

As far as Pakistani design capabilities are concerned, I will give you the reply later some day since i have a deadline for a publication.

But here is short version.

Question 1: Can Pakistan design a full scale 5th generation stealth air frame (notice the word air-frame its bear bone aircraft without any major subsystem yet).


The answer is absolutely yes. Pakistan has expertise to jointly optimize aerodynamics, stealth and structural aspect of an arbitrary chosen configuration as well as characterize its aerodynamics, structural and flight control characteristics (via wind tunnel and computational engineering e.g. CFD etc.).

Pakistan can engineer advanced flight control systems (we routinely do for our missiles for example, yes they are just as complex).

Pakistan does not need a template. Pakistan can already design arbitrary air-frame of its chosen configuration (note again airframe = aircraft without engine or certain other sub-systems etc.). You will live to see Pakistani designed stealth fighter in the not too distant future. Trust me.

Can Pakistan develop every single sub-system.

Answer: No body not even US develops every single subsystem or component nor they should (it will be too cost prohibitive). google contractor list for F-22 and see from Japan to Europe, you have contractors for it. Chips are probably made in Taiwan and so on. That's why every country needs allies (its not out of love).

What Pakistani can do is to design some in house sub-systems including major avionics components. The remaining ones will either be designed by Pakistan (but not manufactured) or be given required technical specifications which will be forwarded to contractors either in Pakistan or around the world. That's the standard procedure US follows, China follows and Pakistan will follow.

I will prove to you using open source information why Pakistan can design a stealth aircraft, later some day.

Don't worry I don't have any intention to abuse you or start arguing with you. You are welcome to continue your discussion as nothing has ever happened. Trust me Islam prohibits me to go around creating psychologically harsh environment for people. We are told to be very kind even though we often don't follow the advice.

Still I have the necessary sensitivity to know when to give people their psychological safe space (by not interfering in their posts for example).

So I won't interfere in your posts again.

Please don't worry about anything at least from my side.

Designing an aircraft and manufacturing said aircraft are two completely different things. Designing is software based, involves mathematical formulas, and can be done by a closed group of people specializing in computer science, maths, and physics.

Taking that design and manufacturing an aircraft from it requires engineering prowess. It needs the talent, capabilities, and resources of an industrialized nation. Unfortunately, Pakistan is not an industrialized nation. We lack the infrastructure needed to start an assembly line for a fifth-gen aircraft and start churning it out in numbers.

Let's take the example of designing meta-materials satisfying required electro-magnetic properties. Sure, you can design them. Probably ascertain their properties in a lab environment as well. But manufacturing them requires the same infrastructure that is required for semi-conductor fabrication. This means we will be forever dependent on someone else - be it China, or some other country. Does Azm seek to elevate Pakistan as a country and as a nation to that level? The hints given by PAC and PAF seem to suggest that is the vision. But in my opinion, it is not enough to merely start the Kamra city. Having Kamra city will not make us an industrialized nation. In order to become industrialized, we need to elevant 200 million people. We need to raise their education level, we need to raise their socio-economic status. Only then you get the strong base on which projects such as fifth-gen fighter can succeed.

So what are some of the capabilities of an industrialized nation? Take the example of SR-71. The aircraft extensively utilized the metal Titanium. When it was first designed, the tools did not exist to work with Titanium, to mold it, craft it into desired shapes. The Americans didn't just design the SR-71, they didn't just manufacture it, they invented the manufacturing process itself. That is industrialization.

Behind any modern system, such as an aircraft carrier, submarine, or fifth-gen fighter is a manufacturing process. Any truly modern, and ground breaking design will need an accompanying advancement in manufacturing. We do not have this capability in Pakistan. And this means we cannot be truly independent.

But there are positive sides to acquiring design capability. It gives our personnel the ability to understand other designs, and their shortcomings. It allows them to create counter-measures against them, understand their limitations and their strengths. This alone is worth the time and effort we are putting into acquiring the design capability. But our journey is long and arduous, and we will need to persevere as a nation. May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'aala Guide us towards the Right path, towards His Forgiveness and Rewards, and Make us a source of strength for Islam and Muslims around the world. Aameen.

 

[JamD]

When you have deep mathematical knowledge, you can quickly ascertain when someone is posting advanced material vs engaging in loghorrea. This has been my constant complaint on this forum. The moderators are not knowledgeable enough to properly judge the technical merit of posts. Me and others like me want to elevate the level of discussion, and there is no reason why the less informed should form a cartel of mediocracy and actively disparage us and discourage us from posting.

I don't feel like butting in to this debate/fight but I'd like to raise a few points.

First of all, being a defence forum, there are a lot of SMEs here. A lot of people know a lot of things. However, not every SME is seen writing technical things on the forum. The reason being this is NOT a technical conference in your particular area of expertise. I am pretty sure every SME can throw out 100s of terms that no other SME will comprehend right away. So to merely use "technical knowledge" as a test of integrity is unfair. This is because when one asks detailed and super specific technical questions to test someones integrity in a thread on Azm, this is really just in bad faith. We are not here to test if everyone here has a PhD in everything.

You may recall a certain Indian poster of the same technical logorrhea type that used to flood this forum with technical terms. This is my opinion but this used to look like more a display of superiority than any form of fruitful discussion. I could have engaged with this person as his field was closely linked to mine but I did not think PDF was the right place for this. Did this make me inferior to this poster? Maybe in some people's eyes, but I am fine with this. I think people with knowledge should be humble. True knowledge doesn't scream look at me look at me. I saw a little of my younger self in this person - excited about knowing all this new stuff and wanting to tell people about it. So maybe it's a matter of age and maturity.

To further your point (while paraphrasing it a little), I agree that true knowledge will recognize true knowledge. However, when knowledge is used as a tool to degrade others/establish moral superiority, it leaves a really bad taste (in my mouth at least).

A lot of the times (not always) I have seen this kind of braggart lose themselves completely into this habit of technical ego-stroking. You will find a lot of these people in our organizations too, and they progress a lot because advertising is one thing they are good it. Maybe I am just bitter because I am unable advertise my skill as well as these people. You be the judge of that I suppose.

To summarize what I am saying I think as a principle we should not use technical knowledge as a test of superiority. Not everything someone knows is pertinent, and throwing out inconsequential technical logorrhea should not be encouraged. Technical details are for papers and conferences. On the forum they are for people who are interested and definitely not tests. If we required a PhD to enter this forum then we wouldn't really have a forum.

Designing an aircraft and manufacturing said aircraft are two completely different things. Designing is software based, involves mathematical formulas, and can be done by a closed group of people specializing in computer science, maths, and physics.

Taking that design and manufacturing an aircraft from it requires engineering prowess. It needs the talent, capabilities, and resources of an industrialized nation. Unfortunately, Pakistan is not an industrialized nation. We lack the infrastructure needed to start an assembly line for a fifth-gen aircraft and start churning it out in numbers.

You hit the nail on the head. Couldn't have said it better. However, I believe we are aiming to build this capability. And to get back to the thread, I believe one of the reasons Sohail Aman gave for embarking on Azm was the gaining of structural repair capability for the Saab 2000s. I am not an expert on structures but I guess, other capabilities will be acquired on small scales as needed. I also guess that not everything will be as easy as repairing structures.

Like @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and @The Raven said, holes in technologies that are taking too long to fill can be subsituted in the short term using imports from willing partners. This would be the logical and obvious thing to do.

 

[MastanKhan]

Designing an aircraft and manufacturing said aircraft are two completely different things. Designing is software based, involves mathematical formulas, and can be done by a closed group of people specializing in computer science, maths, and physics.

Taking that design and manufacturing an aircraft from it requires engineering prowess. It needs the talent, capabilities, and resources of an industrialized nation. Unfortunately, Pakistan is not an industrialized nation. We lack the infrastructure needed to start an assembly line for a fifth-gen aircraft and start churning it out in numbers.

Let's take the example of designing meta-materials satisfying required electro-magnetic properties. Sure, you can design them. Probably ascertain their properties in a lab environment as well. But manufacturing them requires the same infrastructure that is required for semi-conductor fabrication. This means we will be forever dependent on someone else - be it China, or some other country. Does Azm seek to elevate Pakistan as a country and as a nation to that level? The hints given by PAC and PAF seem to suggest that is the vision. But in my opinion, it is not enough to merely start the Kamra city. Having Kamra city will not make us an industrialized nation. In order to become industrialized, we need to elevant 200 million people. We need to raise their education level, we need to raise their socio-economic status. Only then you get the strong base on which projects such as fifth-gen fighter can succeed.

So what are some of the capabilities of an industrialized nation? Take the example of SR-71. The aircraft extensively utilized the metal Titanium. When it was first designed, the tools did not exist to work with Titanium, to mold it, craft it into desired shapes. The Americans didn't just design the SR-71, they didn't just manufacture it, they invented the manufacturing process itself. That is industrialization.

Behind any modern system, such as an aircraft carrier, submarine, or fifth-gen fighter is a manufacturing process. Any truly modern, and ground breaking design will need an accompanying advancement in manufacturing. We do not have this capability in Pakistan. And this means we cannot be truly independent.

But there are positive sides to acquiring design capability. It gives our personnel the ability to understand other designs, and their shortcomings. It allows them to create counter-measures against them, understand their limitations and their strengths. This alone is worth the time and effort we are putting into acquiring the design capability. But our journey is long and arduous, and we will need to persevere as a nation. May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'aala Guide us towards the Right path, towards His Forgiveness and Rewards, and Make us a source of strength for Islam and Muslims around the world. Aameen.

Hi,

One of the top posts on the forum since its inception----. Thank you very much indeed---.

You hit it right on the head---anyone can design anything---but to make it functional and useful to the needed capability is a totally different task in itself---.

We don't even have the infrastructure to manufacture a 4th gen aircraft to the fullest---and we want to delve into a 5th gen project---.

Oh by the by--@Irfan Baloch and @SQ8 are very impressed with the capabilities of the person in question---. sq8 I can understand---but Irfan---that was a surprise---.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

One of the top posts on the forum since its inception----. Thank you very much indeed---.

You hit it right on the head---anyone can design anything---but to make it functional and useful to the needed capability is a totally different task in itself---.

We don't even have the infrastructure to manufacture a 4th gen aircraft to the fullest---and we want to delve into a 5th gen project---.

Oh by the by--@Irfan Baloch and @SQ8 are very impressed with the capabilities of the person in question---. sq8 I can understand---but Irfan---that was a surprise---.

I agree with you that post from @CriticalThought was a top tier one. this must be read and read again by our youngsters to understand that just willing something doesnt make things turn up. its a hard journey which might not complete in our lifetime even if we stay on course.

on the last part dear sir, why did you put me on spot?

the post from @CriticalThought was so nicely written that despite being easy to read and understand for the plebs like me it still offers depth for more learned ones in all the relevant sciences of materials and aerodynamics etc.

 

[CodeforFood]

I agree with you that post from @CriticalThought was a top tier one. this must be read and read again by our youngsters to understand that just willing something doesnt make things turn up. its a hard journey which might not complete in our lifetime even if we stay on course.

on the last part dear sir, why did you put me on spot?

the post from @CriticalThought was so nicely written that despite being easy to read and understand for the plebs like me it still offers depth for more learned ones in all the relevant sciences of materials and aerodynamics etc.

I am going to say this and by-God it is not directed at anyone in particular . My thoughts nonetheless (not perfect by any means either)
-Conceptualize
-Design (still requires engineering prowess and premise)
-Validate and bounce concept with existing design by plug and play or iteration (Engineering is involved here too)
-Iterate and validate further independently (still require engineering)
-Validate in realtime scenarios (engineering is still relevant)
-Scale, Scale-up, Scale-out, Scale-across (based on the need => industrialize)

When you start with the thought that we are going to design an F35 you have already bound your thought processes, designs and capabilities that are outside your control.

I would rather take a set of fresh engineers and scientist with least amount of industry biases and design a product that may become groundbreaking. Yes it takes time, but guess what if you are taking 20 years to design an existing design... well.

 

[SQ8]

When you have deep mathematical knowledge, you can quickly ascertain when someone is posting advanced material vs engaging in loghorrea. This has been my constant complaint on this forum. The moderators are not knowledgeable enough to properly judge the technical merit of posts. Me and others like me want to elevate the level of discussion, and there is no reason why the less informed should form a cartel of mediocracy and actively disparage us and discourage us from posting.

I have yet to see any useful post from Deino on this forum. He maybe well published elsewhere, but he is not contributing to this forum. Let me guess. The benefit you see in him is similar to what you see in Alan Warnes - he can potentially put a good word for Pakistan in the right places. Well, this is just more Pakistaniat (https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistaniat-and-its-remedy.559533/) and one of the reasons why we are laughed upon in the world. Go to any Western nation and try berating them repeatedly over something that is actually wrong. Since most Western societies have low population, people tend to know each other. You will quickly acquire a reputation that will start following you. You will find yourself out of employment on the pretext of being culturally incompatible, not a team player, having communication issues, etc. And this will be the case no matter how intelligent, creative, knowledgeable, and genius you are. All of that will be set aside. We in Pakistan need to learn the right balance between self-respect and self-deprecation. Mr Deino acts like a hoo-haa. I engaged him in a conversation in which he trivialized the JF-17 as a piece of junk or something similar. Conveniently, he has since deleted the post, but he has made his thoughts crystal clear. He does not hold a high opinion of Pakistan or Pakistanis, and he is not increasing our knowledge either. Open your eyes and learn to realize when someone is NOT YOUR FRIEND.

And as usual you must drag in your anti-religious sentiments along with your favorite act of auto-eroticism. Well done, now a highly knowledgeable user has gone. But you don't give a damn, because you want to be seen as the top dog? How would people admire you when someone else knows more than you. So be crass until you hit the right button to drive them away. Tsk tsk.


You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you lack knowledge, you have no right to label something as irrelevant. And if you insist on doing so, you are one more example of a Pakistani who has been elevated to a position that he is not eligible for. For the record, Rafeh was engaging in extremely accurate and to the point discussion which is exactly relevant for this thread. I am going to respond to his post with my own thoughts.

Which “western” countries do you claim to be so intimately familiar with to come up with such conclusions?

Projection - bastion of the narcissist.

I did not make anyone leave - he took the post directed at self aggrandizing people and then went on a self-righteous racist and religious tirade.

As for my lack of qualifications or intellectual capacity or the usual tripe you guys come up with - you have the admin here, they can “demote” me , ban me remove me. Im not the one clamoring apparently for anonymous online recognition.

Technical discussions are the goal from day 1, but having the right to agree to disagree takes precedence.

 

[Itachi]

We don't even have the infrastructure to manufacture a 4th gen aircraft to the fullest---and we want to delve into a 5th gen project---.

And no one, not even China, is going to gift their own 5th gen projects until they fully establish themselves and have started working on the 6th gen aircrafts.

Such jets will turn to dust within months of a war with India. Better invest money in something more worthwhile.

I like the idea of a long range, deep strike capability. Especially one that can reach anywhere within India in 5-25 minutes. Obviously hypersonic...with stealth capabilities.

A Pakistani PGS (Prompt Global Strike) that's tailored for regional strike and can reach the Andaman Islands.

 

[SQ8]

I don't feel like butting in to this debate/fight but I'd like to raise a few points.

First of all, being a defence forum, there are a lot of SMEs here. A lot of people know a lot of things. However, not every SME is seen writing technical things on the forum. The reason being this is NOT a technical conference in your particular area of expertise. I am pretty sure every SME can throw out 100s of terms that no other SME will comprehend right away. So to merely use "technical knowledge" as a test of integrity is unfair. This is because when one asks detailed and super specific technical questions to test someones integrity in a thread on Azm, this is really just in bad faith. We are not here to test if everyone here has a PhD in everything.

You may recall a certain Indian poster of the same technical logorrhea type that used to flood this forum with technical terms. This is my opinion but this used to look like more a display of superiority than any form of fruitful discussion. I could have engaged with this person as his field was closely linked to mine but I did not think PDF was the right place for this. Did this make me inferior to this poster? Maybe in some people's eyes, but I am fine with this. I think people with knowledge should be humble. True knowledge doesn't scream look at me look at me. I saw a little of my younger self in this person - excited about knowing all this new stuff and wanting to tell people about it. So maybe it's a matter of age and maturity.

To further your point (while paraphrasing it a little), I agree that true knowledge will recognize true knowledge. However, when knowledge is used as a tool to degrade others/establish moral superiority, it leaves a really bad taste (in my mouth at least).

A lot of the times (not always) I have seen this kind of braggart lose themselves completely into this habit of technical ego-stroking. You will find a lot of these people in our organizations too, and they progress a lot because advertising is one thing they are good it. Maybe I am just bitter because I am unable advertise my skill as well as these people. You be the judge of that I suppose.

To summarize what I am saying I think as a principle we should not use technical knowledge as a test of superiority. Not everything someone knows is pertinent, and throwing out inconsequential technical logorrhea should not be encouraged. Technical details are for papers and conferences. On the forum they are for people who are interested and definitely not tests. If we required a PhD to enter this forum then we wouldn't really have a forum.



You hit the nail on the head. Couldn't have said it better. However, I believe we are aiming to build this capability. And to get back to the thread, I believe one of the reasons Sohail Aman gave for embarking on Azm was the gaining of structural repair capability for the Saab 2000s. I am not an expert on structures but I guess, other capabilities will be acquired on small scales as needed. I also guess that not everything will be as easy as repairing structures.

Like @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and @The Raven said, holes in technologies that are taking too long to fill can be subsituted in the short term using imports from willing partners. This would be the logical and obvious thing to do.

You are definitely more astute in getting the message across.
The topic from which we really have deviated to my demerit as well, is the R&D culture that is required for an undertaking like . The roots of which are laid from the university level.
There are a lot of smart Pakistanis who are quietly achieving in research - a lot of which is valid but a lot of it is not or just wasted away.

Either way, this acerbic argument is going nowhere and AZM is still left to talk on.

I am going to say this and by-God it is not directed at anyone in particular . My thoughts nonetheless (not perfect by any means either)
-Conceptualize
-Design (still requires engineering prowess and premise)
-Validate and bounce concept with existing design by plug and play or iteration (Engineering is involved here too)
-Iterate and validate further independently (still require engineering)
-Validate in realtime scenarios (engineering is still relevant)
-Scale, Scale-up, Scale-out, Scale-across (based on the need => industrialize)

When you start with the thought that we are going to design an F35 you have already bound your thought processes, designs and capabilities that are outside your control.

I would rather take a set of fresh engineers and scientist with least amount of industry biases and design a product that may become groundbreaking. Yes it takes time, but guess what if you are taking 20 years to design an existing design... well.

From my current area of expertise - I would advise against scope creep otherwise you end up with the Tejas.

At the same time, we shouldn’t be and really are not designing the F-35. That jet was thought up in the 90’s and based upon a set of constraints around a unified system to work for tri services. It is a beast of a fighter, but AZM much like the JF-17 needs to be built with the PAF’s requirements in mind.

What are those requirements?
It is because we need a 5th gen fighter or 6th gen fighter?
Or is it because there is a problem that needs to be solved?

This is the line of thinking - many have all posted this here but it is still incoherent because- going back to scope creep.

That is the USAF with a trillion dollar Multi-year budget - how does the PAF stack up with 1/500th of that budget?

 

[CriticalThought]

Which “western” countries do you claim to be so intimately familiar with to come up with such conclusions?

I am extensively connected with people from across the globe, both because of the nature of my job, and because of the multi-cultural society we have in Australia. Let me give you examples of what I have seen first hand. A Brazilian manager telling a female employee with Israeli Army background that she should reject candidates if she feels she doesn't want to work with them. An Australian manager supporting the theory that the worst employees are the top performers who don't fit culturally and they should be fired immediately. An Eastern European blonde telling me to avoid travelling through France because 'you don't want to find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time'. Entire teams of mediocres from Austrian, Vietnamese, Australian ganging up on someone because he isn't a 'team player'. Going with the flow is the single most important trait in Western culture. Or for example a discussion with a CTO where a Chinese candidate was rejected because he had worked at a certain Chinese company and "if we find him suspicious, we wouldn't be the only people in the world".

Projection - bastion of the narcissist.

Denial - weapon of the criminal.

I did not make anyone leave - he took the post directed at self aggrandizing people and then went on a self-righteous racist and religious tirade.

Victim blaming, self exonerating, blame shifting, name calling, misanthropic, anti-religious, Islamophobic, fault finding, self justifying denial of your own culpability. You are insensitive towards people's religous sentiments and sensibilities.

As for my lack of qualifications or intellectual capacity or the usual tripe you guys come up with - you have the admin here, they can “demote” me , ban me remove me. Im not the one clamoring apparently for anonymous online recognition.

If you question somebody's expertise when the person in question has been talking a lot of sense, you only discredit yourself. I saw an issue of self-importance in him, I will give you that. But instead of letting him communicate so we could all see his true depths - or lack thereof - you used your usual colorful language which triggered him. You should realize not everyone has the stomach for your vivid and highly sexualized description of people's self importance. May be one day you will tell us how you came to learn about it.

Technical discussions are the goal from day 1, but having the right to agree to disagree takes precedence.

Let's get back to the technical stuff.

 

[CriticalThought]

From my current area of expertise - I would advise against scope creep otherwise you end up with the Tejas.

At the same time, we shouldn’t be and really are not designing the F-35. That jet was thought up in the 90’s and based upon a set of constraints around a unified system to work for tri services. It is a beast of a fighter, but AZM much like the JF-17 needs to be built with the PAF’s requirements in mind.

What are those requirements?
It is because we need a 5th gen fighter or 6th gen fighter?
Or is it because there is a problem that needs to be solved?

This is the line of thinking - many have all posted this here but it is still incoherent because- going back to scope creep.

View attachment 694419

That is the USAF with a trillion dollar Multi-year budget - how does the PAF stack up with 1/500th of that budget?

I second avoiding scope creep. Let us try to reset the Vision and Mission:

Vision - To provide PAF the tools and capabilities it needs to overcome all present and future challenges in all domains through indigenization.

Mission - Adopt an agile approach of quick turnaround by parallelizing work on low hanging fruit with acquisition of advanced capabilities. Provide friendly environment for fail early, fail often, quick convergence to useful solutions through experimentation. Ensure early adoption of piecemeal results from acquisition of advanced capabilities. Instead of focusing on fifth/sixth gen aircraft, focus of fifth/sixth gen systems including radars, SAMS, AEWACS, drones, munitions etc.

If this Vision/Mission is followed, we will not be restricted to merely a fifth gen aircraft. If we realize, through experimentation, that the combination of AEWACS and long endurance munitions can counter sixth gen threats and it is more cost effective, then go for it. I am personally not tied to the outcome of a fifth gen aircraft as a result of Azm. Increased indigenization across multiple platform should be the goal.

I don't feel like butting in to this debate/fight but I'd like to raise a few points.

First of all, being a defence forum, there are a lot of SMEs here. A lot of people know a lot of things. However, not every SME is seen writing technical things on the forum. The reason being this is NOT a technical conference in your particular area of expertise. I am pretty sure every SME can throw out 100s of terms that no other SME will comprehend right away. So to merely use "technical knowledge" as a test of integrity is unfair. This is because when one asks detailed and super specific technical questions to test someones integrity in a thread on Azm, this is really just in bad faith. We are not here to test if everyone here has a PhD in everything.

You may recall a certain Indian poster of the same technical logorrhea type that used to flood this forum with technical terms. This is my opinion but this used to look like more a display of superiority than any form of fruitful discussion. I could have engaged with this person as his field was closely linked to mine but I did not think PDF was the right place for this. Did this make me inferior to this poster? Maybe in some people's eyes, but I am fine with this. I think people with knowledge should be humble. True knowledge doesn't scream look at me look at me. I saw a little of my younger self in this person - excited about knowing all this new stuff and wanting to tell people about it. So maybe it's a matter of age and maturity.

To further your point (while paraphrasing it a little), I agree that true knowledge will recognize true knowledge. However, when knowledge is used as a tool to degrade others/establish moral superiority, it leaves a really bad taste (in my mouth at least).

A lot of the times (not always) I have seen this kind of braggart lose themselves completely into this habit of technical ego-stroking. You will find a lot of these people in our organizations too, and they progress a lot because advertising is one thing they are good it. Maybe I am just bitter because I am unable advertise my skill as well as these people. You be the judge of that I suppose.

To summarize what I am saying I think as a principle we should not use technical knowledge as a test of superiority. Not everything someone knows is pertinent, and throwing out inconsequential technical logorrhea should not be encouraged. Technical details are for papers and conferences. On the forum they are for people who are interested and definitely not tests. If we required a PhD to enter this forum then we wouldn't really have a forum.



You hit the nail on the head. Couldn't have said it better. However, I believe we are aiming to build this capability. And to get back to the thread, I believe one of the reasons Sohail Aman gave for embarking on Azm was the gaining of structural repair capability for the Saab 2000s. I am not an expert on structures but I guess, other capabilities will be acquired on small scales as needed. I also guess that not everything will be as easy as repairing structures.

Like @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and @The Raven said, holes in technologies that are taking too long to fill can be subsituted in the short term using imports from willing partners. This would be the logical and obvious thing to do.

He was using advanced jargon to call out an uninformed bully. His behavior towards others was quite humble. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[The Raven]

I am extensively connected with people from across the globe, both because of the nature of my job, and because of the multi-cultural society we have in Australia. Let me give you examples of what I have seen first hand. A Brazilian manager telling a female employee with Israeli Army background that she should reject candidates if she feels she doesn't want to work with them. An Australian manager supporting the theory that the worst employees are the top performers who don't fit culturally and they should be fired immediately. An Eastern European blonde telling me to avoid travelling through France because 'you don't want to find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time'. Entire teams of mediocres from Austrian, Vietnamese, Australian ganging up on someone because he isn't a 'team player'. Going with the flow is the single most important trait in Western culture. Or for example a discussion with a CTO where a Chinese candidate was rejected because he had worked at a certain Chinese company and "if we find him suspicious, we wouldn't be the only people in the world".



Denial - weapon of the criminal.



Victim blaming, self exonerating, blame shifting, name calling, misanthropic, anti-religious, Islamophobic, fault finding, self justifying denial of your own culpability. You are insensitive towards people's religous sentiments and sensibilities.



If you question somebody's expertise when the person in question has been talking a lot of sense, you only discredit yourself. I saw an issue of self-importance in him, I will give you that. But instead of letting him communicate so we could all see his true depths - or lack thereof - you used your usual colorful language which triggered him. You should realize not everyone has the stomach for your vivid and highly sexualized description of people's self importance. May be one day you will tell us how you came to learn about it.



Let's get back to the technical stuff.

Sorry, but this is a load of bollocks, self aggrandising nonsense. You think you're the only in a privileged "western culture" to talk down to others who are not? I don't see what culture and religion have anything to do with anything on this forum, and I don't understand why the religiously orientated need to constantly drag religion into these threads.