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Project "AZM" :Building Knowledge Base & Road Map

Irfan Baloch

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If we forgot, the topic is...

Project "AZM" : STEALTH AMBITION Project
I am to know if any training amd study centre setup yet?
R&D, infrastructure to support local development

and how we will overcome international bans
sending students to seek advance knowledge and see them return with less deserters and steady support from all governments of future

You are missing some key information. I wish to add to your pool of information, to help you update your world view.

During Musharraf's time when USAID PhD scholarships were in full effect, a group of Pakistani students ran an experiment. In the interview for USAID, they were asked questions such as 'How do you think you can help with America's perception in Pakistan' etc. One of them gave extremely confrontational answers such as 'American needs to help itself if it wants to improve its perception in Pakistan' etc. The others gave the obvious answers. I learnt this first hand from one of the students who gave the 'obvious answers': "As I was leaving the meeting room, the door started shutting behind me. The committee, thinking the door has completely shut, started their evaluation while the door was open just a crack. This is what I heard: 'He seems to have the kind of mind that we can mold...'". And so we have first hand proof, right from the horse's mouth: they are looking for weak, subservient minds that they can mold. The significant thing is that this is the FIRST thing they discussed. For a PhD program where one has to display intellectual capacity, creativity, depth of knowledge in one's field, a yearning for research and learning, they VERY FIRST thing they evaluated as soon as they thought the candidate is out of earshot, was ability to mold the mind.

The guy who gave confrontational answers did not make it. Let me assure you he is outstandingly smart, with an excellent academic record, and deserved the scholarship as much as any other candidate. The others who got selected were called for an orientation. The contents of the 'orientation' included information such as 'In America, if a girl wants to kiss you, you cannot deny her', as well as dancing lessons. Then they were invited to the American embassy for an evening where wine was openly available and they were expected to show how much they have learnt from the orientation.

And this will not change even if you send professionals from armed forces. You think professionals from armed forces aren't looking for a way out of Pakistan? How about the topmost generals whose kids are studying or living abroad? Don't we all agree these generals are a security risk? Even I being a civilian have run into well connected individuals who try to guage me by bad mouthing Pakistan. This is a key test to see how sincere somebody is to Pakistan. As soon as they find someone willing to work against their own country, they start to groom them. This is exactly what will happen to those professionals you send. You used to be the 'Counter terrorism expert' on the forum. Surely you understand all the implications? Or are you looking for a way out yourself?

Here is a proposal on how to build capacity within Pakistan. First let us identify the root cause of our backwardness. It is under-developed intellectual capacity. Our education system is geared towards memorization and regurgitation. The students realize much of what they are learning won't be used in the industry. There is actually no 'industry' for graduates of electrical, electronic, mechanical, and other types of engineering. Most of them already know they will be doing computer programming. Others will move on to an MBA degree. Many others will end up in a career that has nothing to do with engineering.

The very first step towards progress is the establishment of workplaces where people realize they have to put their academic knowledge to use. Their induction, continuation, and progress in organizational hierarchy depend on actually applying their graduate knowledge, and improving upon it through personal initiative. This means having managers and team leads who demand this attitude. These organizations will have to be numerous enough, and we will need a lead time until our society wakes up and realizes the importance of actually acquiring knowledge during graduate degrees.

What our workplaces expect and demand of us goes a long way in shaping us as a society. This is also true for military organizations such as POF, NESCOM, etc. Don't be fooled by successes such as Shaheen and Raad. These organizations are full of the poorest outputs from Pakistani institutions. I have friends who have worked on simulators. These guys tell horror stories about the code base developed for these simulators. And the sad aspect is that these horror stories reflect poor understanding of the programming language they were using, along with poor understanding of software development itself, and project management. The attitude of project leaders is application of manual, laborious, brute force measures to keep things working. There is no culture of sitting back and learning from own mistakes. No culture of reading journals or news articles and trying to apply best practices. By the way, this information is now pretty old. Hopefully things have changed for the better.

The road towards progress leads through the toiling fields of self-realization, and self-improvement. I am confident that if attitudes change in the leadership, at least our military organizations can embrace a cultural shift.

By the way, I am not opposed to attracting talent from abroad, per proposals from @syed1 @JamD and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) but they cannot comprise the main workforce of Azm. They can bring in special expertise in some areas, but in order to achieve the ambitions of Azm, we need to rise as a nation from within.
my post has generated a thought process and a lively debate from a section of members and I am very grateful.
thanks for your point and I agree with its general theme and points that may or may not be directly relevant to the subject.

regarding deserters and spies there is always a risk whenever we send our people abroad , civilian or uniformed. that subject it out of scope of this thread so I urge everyone reading bout this leave it for another time.

I will respond in one post to everyone who took their time to respond in detail to my inquiry and my PoV.

If we forgot, the topic is...

Project "AZM" : STEALTH AMBITION Project
I responded to your post that has triggered the discussion in a certain direction. Although the discussion is with Project Azm in mind but my initial post has generated a sub thread within it.
should we keep this all here or filter this all out into a new thread?

this question is to all who responded to my original and follow up posts.


Respected members
=============
I took the liberty of moving your posts here that were in response to my initial inquiry about our current expertise and suggestion of sending our people abroad (west or east) to bridge the knowledge gap and later on train our future personnel inside Pakistan.
 
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I am to know if any training amd study centre setup yet?
R&D, infrastructure to support local development

and how we will overcome international bans
sending students to seek advance knowledge and see them return with less deserters and steady support from all governments of future
Sir, unfortunately almost all of our students go abroad for study just to focus on everything except for studies...
 
I am to know if any training amd study centre setup yet?
R&D, infrastructure to support local development

and how we will overcome international bans
sending students to seek advance knowledge and see them return with less deserters and steady support from all governments of future

The answer lies in stop relying on international education. Science is the same everywhere in the universe, and it is waiting to be discovered. Much of what has been discovered is already available in the form of research papers. And the real truth of the matter is that the mind boggling success of countries like China stands in large part on wholesale buying out of technology, manpower, and where possible, espionage.

In a previous employment, the mentor assigned to me was a graduate from Russia's most premier institute of theoretical physics. He tells me back in the 1950s Britain hired Russian scientists on salaries of 30000K pounds per month for secret research projects. Yes, that is Thirty Thousand pounds per month in the 1950s. He says, as late as a couple of years ago, precincts in China hired Russian scientists on similarly mind boggling salaries so they could continue to get funding from the central government. And my Chinese friends have told me frankly that many of the technologies we see in China came about because entire companies were bought out.

Our problem is slavish mentality. We feel the need for someone else to teach us. The Prime Minister of a nuclear armed country goes around the world, begging people to teach us how to govern. What a joke! In seventy years we could not develop the vision to develop Gawadar through our own initiative. Like a damsel in distress, we need some shining knight to come to our rescue. Well, the fact is, there are no shining knights. By submitting yourself to the pedagogy of others, you enslave yourself. No one is going to teach you so much that you became their masters. You are on your own, and Allah has already given you all you need to excel. All you need to do is end the mental slavery.
 
I am to know if any training amd study centre setup yet?
R&D, infrastructure to support local development

and how we will overcome international bans
sending students to seek advance knowledge and see them return with less deserters and steady support from all governments of future

All we know as of yet is all about students in different universities are taking part in different studies. Lastly, saw a group that came up with most secure and advance processing chipset of military grade. I think, currently no one is labeling a specific lot as destined for Aviation City PAC Kamra/AZM.

I do agree that bans may follow knowing our ambition and as odds aren't in our favour in West/US. However, still if the few make it back excluding deserters, this is still a starter. In local area, heard that we are moving ahead however with bit slow speed & pace due to our own issues/economy but the foundation is set to build it up. Local Infrastructure isn't yet on the mark of International Level but however, local studies & labs are set for good start.

The program is set to be strategical importance and of national interest so I don't think the support will ever discontinue regardless of any government.
 
Call me a conspiracy theorist but I feel all of the below are related to Project Azm (which has merged with TFX):

1.Pakistan, Turkey to allow dual nationality for their citizens
www.thenews.com.pk/amp/607844-pakistan-turkey-to-allow-dual-nationality-for-their-citizens
2. Thanks to @Zulfiqar
Screenshot_20200221-085757_WhatsApp.jpg

3. 4.Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has launched an office in Pakistan to boost its profile in the South Asian country. TAI announced the opening of the office on 24 December. TAI said the office is based within Pakistan's National Science & Technology Park (NSTP)
https://www.janes.com/article/93426/turkish-aerospace-opens-pakistan-office

I am to know if any training amd study centre setup yet?
R&D, infrastructure to support local development

and how we will overcome international bans
sending students to seek advance knowledge and see them return with less deserters and steady support from all governments of future

All I know is that they've hired a very large number of fresh and experienced engineers on competitive salaries.
Sending students abroad is a dumb idea I feel. The kind of students that take these schemes are mostly just looking for a way out of Pakistan. Instead you should have policies to attract students ALREADY abroad to come back to Pakistan to work. More carrot less stick. This is what China and India do. One of my indian friends in university was visited by "someone" from India, making him an offer to move back to India but he refused because he isnt the uber nationalist modi loving type. We on the other hand think that if we send poor and desperate students abroad they will come back to Pakistan because they signed a piece of paper. Doesn't work that way.

From personal experience: We spend scarce taxpayer money on "faculty developement" and crap like that where incompetent people are sent abroad. These people are incompetent before and after their experience and not motivated to do anything. On the other hand motivated people who would go out of their way to work in Pakistan, who manage their own higher education are given absolutely horrendous pays when they return to Pakistan. One guy I know when he complained to HR at Air university about his low pay (UK educated guy) their reply was please quit well hire a local grad at less than what were paying you. They were paying him 55k. Money will be better spent on human resource attraction and retention than sending people abroad. Trust me theres a very large number of people who would love the opportunity to work in Pakistan if only they were given enough salaries that they could survive at least.
 
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I understand the counter points made against sending students out

i will explain later its not easy to write with phone keypad.


in short we lack setup to start teaching and training those who will setup the R&D and testing and production.
Thank you for your interest in this vital (IMHO) issue. Perhaps we can discuss this on a dedicated thread.
 
Call me a conspiracy theorist but I feel all of the below are related to Project Azm (which has merged with TFX):
The 'hints' are there ...

We had the previous CAS ACM Sohail Aman say: We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.

...and then AM Ahmer Shahzad said: "Turkey’s T-FX is in line with what the PAF want”

Finally, the current CAS said the PAF was open to a partnership (Jane's May 2019) if it's ITAR-free.

This is going to get interesting. The next-gen fighter is as about as risky, high-cost, and marquee as you can get, so anything that's less intensive (e.g., helicopters) can logically follow. I just hope our side is as liberal as the Turks in as far as creating opportunities for private sector entities to supply inputs for the next-gen fighter.

I don't know if opening the door would help Integrated Dynamics, Shibli, et. al (as it might require a change in how they operate), but it might create enough of an incentive to spur investment in new entities.

@JamD

I still think it would be odd for the PAF to hedge its bets on only one basket, especially one as (frankly) untested and unknown as Turkey. We don't 100% know where the current drive from Turkey is even coming from, e.g., is it Erdogan/AKP, or is it systemic? Things can easily take a 180 if Turkey's political leadership changes.

With the Chinese at least, we can always bank on two axioms: (1) we can connect the Chinese to the Gulf in case things get nasty in the Pacific and (2) India's basically now a US ally. While the surface aspects of our ties with China can change, the cold hard interests won't shift.

So, to put it another way, what are the chances that the PAF's ASR for a twin-engine fighter has rolled into the TF-X, and now Project AZM is something else? Perhaps a new baseline?

In China, you have a huge base comprising of working turbofan engines, radars, avionics, etc that you can pull together to develop a new solution. So, what are the chances of also seeing a next-gen single engine fighter to basically supplant the JF-17 (while TF-X replaces the F-16)?
 
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Thank you for your interest in this vital (IMHO) issue. Perhaps we can discuss this on a dedicated thread.
my initial and follow up questions were strictly with the view of this ambitious project in mind.
we can wish all wee want and we need some logistics and approach in achieving in house development
we are leap frogging here. the ambition and intention is appreciable but to have 5th gen grade plane and its subsystems requires the existence of real life people and material in place.
 
my initial and follow up questions were strictly with the view of this ambitious project in mind.
we can wish all wee want and we need some logistics and approach in achieving in house development
we are leap frogging here. the ambition and intention is appreciable but to have 5th gen grade plane and its subsystems requires the existence of real life people and material in place.
Your point was keeping in mind The Aviation City and the motives behind ACM Rtd Sohail Aman’s project of Aviation City in Kamra as well as Project AZM and other projects.

Like you said, this project was started not to just develop a specific fighter or a system, or some capabilities, but the real motive was to promote the aviation industry altogether be it civil or Military. The Aviation City project might be divided in phases with the first phase relating to development of required infrastructure as well as the most crucial part, Training, educating and producing highly qualified Engineers with Phds from elsewhere as well as locally through the help of the existing skilled and well learned engineers of Thunder and Super Mushak Program, plus, the assistance from China as well as Turkey with regards to education as both countries have decent Aviation Universities and Industry.

Keeping this all in mind, the main objective is to create an Aviation Industry Base comprising of its engine in the form of highly educated and experienced engineers who can then work on multiple future programs again and again, AZM, post AZM, FGFA, AZM Replacement. Also the creation of a highly fruitful avionics research and development industry producing innovative radars, systems, Missiles and UAVs.

To achieve this (Skilled engineers), We have to send our best, those already serving in PAF as freshmen, or at Kamra/Air University to get phd from China or Turkey or both, take experience from CAC, SAC, Aselsan, TAI and possibly BAE, RR. This should be done in high numbers, to produce more and more highly educated engineers so as to increase the efficiency of local industry.

Encouragement is the key to achieve such. A young engineer is anxious, restless, uncertain about future, having responsibilities of family and kitchen, hence can’t study further due to lack of time, motivation but most importantly uncertainty of actually getting hired after post graduate studies or Phds after investing a handsome amount on studies. So PAF must consider sponsoring some gems, book nerds, and creatives, get them on table, give them assurance of providing job if they being sponsored by PAF for studies abroad bore good results in academics as well as experiences. This will give a boost to morales of our students and in turn will encourage them to pursue studies just for the sake of good potential future. To prevent these sponsored students getting away outside after studies, PAF must arrange some sort of specific visa which is based on contract directly between university, embassy of that country and PAF. The contract must highlight that the student has been sponsored by PAF, will not be provided job or nationality unless NOC provided by PAF for a certain period of years. A good measure would be to also sign a contract with student which might result in some of the student’s property in Pakistan seized and handed over to PAF, could be residence or something...
 
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As one of those who had gone abroad for attainment of higher education, and has degrees from two top 20 universities. I can attest to the fact that merely sending kids abroad to get a degree is a recipe for disaster atleast at the bachelors and masters level. The greatest amount of learning happens when that person works in the industry and comes out of the theoretical world of the academia.

Therefore, I liked what someone suggested here of trying to attract Pakistani talent that is abroad to come in and serve the nation. However, for that attitudes and pay scales would have to change. A friend of mine did go back for the love of motherland and he had to work extra hard for his employers and co-workers to accept him because they view someone returning from abroad as an outsider and/or privileged. Some degree of enviousness may also have a part to play. The pay scales are also beyond pathetic.

Literally the entirety of world's scientific knowledge is now available online and you do not have to send an army of "best and brightest" abroad for them to attain it. Just need to identify subject-matter-experts in the academia in each field and give them big budgets and large talented teams. There is no reason that we cannot attain atleast Turkish level of technology in the short-term. However, there has to be strict accountability of performance and budgets for any project to progress.

More specifically for this AZM project, I do not know what the structure is but typically in a project like multiple facets of the plane would be subdivided into teams such as structural and airframe, thermodynamics, avionics and controls with an overarching umbrella that oversees all teams and ensures coordination. I do not know if Pakistan has even identified a project director to manage the project. Itni araam se nahi bun jata 5th gen fighter.
 
As one of those who had gone abroad for attainment of higher education, and has degrees from two top 20 universities. I can attest to the fact that merely sending kids abroad to get a degree is a recipe for disaster atleast at the bachelors and masters level. The greatest amount of learning happens when that person works in the industry and comes out of the theoretical world of the academia.

Therefore, I liked what someone suggested here of trying to attract Pakistani talent that is abroad to come in and serve the nation. However, for that attitudes and pay scales would have to change. A friend of mine did go back for the love of motherland and he had to work extra hard for his employers and co-workers to accept him because they view someone returning from abroad as an outsider and/or privileged. Some degree of enviousness may also have a part to play. The pay scales are also beyond pathetic.

Literally the entirety of world's scientific knowledge is now available online and you do not have to send an army of "best and brightest" abroad for them to attain it. Just need to identify subject-matter-experts in the academia in each field and give them big budgets and large talented teams. There is no reason that we cannot attain atleast Turkish level of technology in the short-term. However, there has to be strict accountability of performance and budgets for any project to progress.

More specifically for this AZM project, I do not know what the structure is but typically in a project like multiple facets of the plane would be subdivided into teams such as structural and airframe, thermodynamics, avionics and controls with an overarching umbrella that oversees all teams and ensures coordination. I do not know if Pakistan has even identified a project director to manage the project. Itni araam se nahi bun jata 5th gen fighter.
I like what you mentioned here,

“Entirety of science is available on internet”

I was about to include that in my post but didn’t. Reason : Internet is a tool for tiktok, fb and stupid whatsapp videos and gifs and pics, nothing more.

Check stats of how much average time is spent on Google Scholar in Pakistan every hour and you will be surprised as well as ashamed to hear the results.

OTOH, educational institutions should be responsible for filtering the internet for highly useful knowledge, and should include in syllabus, but note kamana hai bas...

I second that “enviousness” you mentioned, people think, those residing outside are some sort of elite people or that they are less deserving of equal or high pay as compared to those “phuss” people in majority in our industries who have just CGPAs but the usual gaon dehati andaz in professional organizations.
 
my initial and follow up questions were strictly with the view of this ambitious project in mind.
we can wish all wee want and we need some logistics and approach in achieving in house development
we are leap frogging here. the ambition and intention is appreciable but to have 5th gen grade plane and its subsystems requires the existence of real life people and material in place.
Agreed. My argument is based on having an X amount of money and how best to spend it. IMHO money spent on sending people abroad is partly wasted because:
1. These are people who are in it just to go abroad.
2. These are people who have not lived abroad and will go abroad and decide to stay there.

Also those who return are with just the basic qualification they went abroad for.

So return on investment is low.

The other option is look at people abroad already:
1. They are already abroad so they're not in it for that.
2. They have lived abroad and if they decide to come back it's because they want to not because they're supposed to.

Also these people have experience and expertise much beyond what a graduate of any degree (Masters or Doctoral) has.

Honestly for the fast paced project that is supposed to be Azm it is a no brainer to poach talent that is already there and not try to make your own talent from scratch.

All PAC has to do is offer reasonable pay structures and an environment that doesnt stifle independent thinking and all the Pakistani talent all over the world will flock to it. Actively pursue professionals all over the world. Offer them a good and fulfilling life. A good number will gladly return. This will create future talent too by creating a local ecosystem. No need to send students abroad right now. That can come later if it is needed.

As one of those who had gone abroad for attainment of higher education, and has degrees from two top 20 universities. I can attest to the fact that merely sending kids abroad to get a degree is a recipe for disaster atleast at the bachelors and masters level. The greatest amount of learning happens when that person works in the industry and comes out of the theoretical world of the academia.

Therefore, I liked what someone suggested here of trying to attract Pakistani talent that is abroad to come in and serve the nation. However, for that attitudes and pay scales would have to change. A friend of mine did go back for the love of motherland and he had to work extra hard for his employers and co-workers to accept him because they view someone returning from abroad as an outsider and/or privileged. Some degree of enviousness may also have a part to play. The pay scales are also beyond pathetic.

Literally the entirety of world's scientific knowledge is now available online and you do not have to send an army of "best and brightest" abroad for them to attain it. Just need to identify subject-matter-experts in the academia in each field and give them big budgets and large talented teams. There is no reason that we cannot attain atleast Turkish level of technology in the short-term. However, there has to be strict accountability of performance and budgets for any project to progress.

More specifically for this AZM project, I do not know what the structure is but typically in a project like multiple facets of the plane would be subdivided into teams such as structural and airframe, thermodynamics, avionics and controls with an overarching umbrella that oversees all teams and ensures coordination. I do not know if Pakistan has even identified a project director to manage the project. Itni araam se nahi bun jata 5th gen fighter.
+1
 
Agreed. My argument is based on having an X amount of money and how best to spend it. IMHO money spent on sending people abroad is partly wasted because:
1. These are people who are in it just to go abroad.
2. These are people who have not lived abroad and will go abroad and decide to stay there.

Also those who return are with just the basic qualification they went abroad for.

So return on investment is low.

The other option is look at people abroad already:
1. They are already abroad so they're not in it for that.
2. They have lived abroad and if they decide to come back it's because they want to not because they're supposed to.

Also these people have experience and expertise much beyond what a graduate of any degree (Masters or Doctoral) has.

Honestly for the fast paced project that is supposed to be Azm it is a no brainer to poach talent that is already there and not try to make your own talent from scratch.

All PAC has to do is offer reasonable pay structures and an environment that doesnt stifle independent thinking and all the Pakistani talent all over the world will flock to it. Actively pursue professionals all over the world. Offer them a good and fulfilling life. A good number will gladly return. This will create future talent too by creating a local ecosystem. No need to send students abroad right now. That can come later if it is needed.


+1
The good thing Pakistan has going for it is that the cost of living well can be made affordable vs. other parts of the world. So, give foreign educated engineers and scientists tier 1 housing (we can build this locally), a car, schooling for kids, etc. You can minimize their expenses in Pakistan to near zero, and then offer modest salaries in USD (deposited to the account of their choice).
 
The good thing Pakistan has going for it is that the cost of living well can be made affordable vs. other parts of the world. So, give foreign educated engineers and scientists tier 1 housing (we can build this locally), a car, schooling for kids, etc. You can minimize their expenses in Pakistan to near zero, and then offer modest salaries in USD (deposited to the account of their choice).
Honestly all expat Pakistanis understand Pakistans condition and dont want all that. Just want a comfortable and respectable living. Which is something that is not there yet.
 
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