Procurement of new aircraft in PAF

[Super Falcon]

JH-7 Flounder is a ground attack aircraft. PAF is using Mirages for this role which are now qualified with Raad ALCM and MAR-1 ARM.

Mirages also possess better Air to Air Capability than the Flounder with the integration of MAA-1A Piranha and (rumoured) R-Darter.

Instead of using a twin-engine ground attack aircraft, I believe PAF will rather be happy to order 50 extra JF-17s and develop a suitable ALCM.

Don't agree Mirages are old with no onboard fly by wire systems Pak has to but dedicated ground Attack jet

 

[ziaulislam]

Pakistan should reconsider Eurofighter 3A new build aircraft and we can afford few dozens i guess.
We have good respectable Pakistanis in British political parties and they can help in dealing, this will also be sanction proof if UN is not imposing any.
later we can negotiate engines and other avionics for our project Azm.

24 aircraft would cost approximately 4 billion dollars with weapon package under conservative measures and still would be enough, we would need atleast 36 for a meaning full number which would mean atleast 8 billion dollars. this is equal to 2 IMF packages(all of this is foreign exchange component)

you could buy 200 thunders for that money with no game changing technology, the only aircraft worth that money is f-35, or new fifth gen fighter in eastern market

the only feasible option i see is either used f-16s or a combination of used and new typhoons if price can be negotiated. we also have the options of J-10/flanker series, if we need range and deep strike the later is better

having said euro fighter has countries like Germany in the mix as well, and recently we have not been able to get weapons from them, so dont be surpirse if you spend 8 billion dollars(worth 200 advance thunders) and then suddenly are out of spares

the whole concept behind thunder was back bone fighter, doesnt make sense for us now to run away from it, Sweden was able to counter a bigger threat with their own fighter

i guess we need to spend that 8 billion dollars to improve our military overall rather than just 36 fighters

PAF is a little fossilized. If they really need J-11 series, they can ask PLAAF to retire some J-11Bs and then sold to them as second hand. Before handing over, the J-11B can be upgraded to J-11D level.
Russian may have some words if we sell brand new one, but they can not forbid us to sell retired Su-27

PLAAF is not gona provide us flankers due to russian fear factor

 

[mingle]

@Zarvan what's ur take here ?chines Flankers Russian Flankers or Typhoons ?

 

[beijingwalker]

Sina news: J-20 might follow the example of JF-17 joint program in the future. home used type for PLAA and export type for PAF.

在中巴空军联训结训仪式上，中巴双方互赠了纪念品。而西部战区空军司令员战厚顺中将却赠送给了巴空军飞行员一个特殊礼物，是一架歼20隐形战机模型，另外还透露，歼-20战机已实现了“中国心”。有分析认为，中国赠送巴基斯坦歼20模型或大有深意。

早在去年，有媒体报道过，歼20隐形战机是禁止出口的先进武器，就像美军的F-22一样是禁卖品。但中国也要考虑一个问题，若中国盟友的对手拥有五代战机的话，中国该如何办？有消息称，俄罗斯苏-57隐身战机即将交付空军，印度也会引进，到时如何安抚盟友巴基斯坦？

早在去年，有媒体报道过，歼20隐形战机是禁止出口的先进武器，就像美军的F-22一样是禁卖品。但中国也要考虑一个问题，若中国盟友的对手拥有五代战机的话，中国该如何办？有消息称，俄罗斯苏-57隐身战机即将交付空军，印度也会引进，到时如何安抚盟友巴基斯坦？

当然，中国最想出口的是外贸版FC-31，并不是歼20，但巴空军经过考察后认为，FC-31与其所期望的还是有一定差距，目前FC-31使用的和枭龙同源的RD-93发动机，机动性并不突出，是一款中型双发五代机，其价格定也不会太便宜。

近日，传出歼20已换装国产新型发动机，不再受俄制发动机的限制，显示中国已可大批量生产。再加上中国已经建造了三至四条歼20的脉动生产线，年产量或可达到100架左右。相信在不久后满足中国空军的需求后，或可效仿枭龙战机项目，

不排除中国或卖给巴基斯坦一些出口型歼-20，对于巴空军是求之不得，又能巩固中巴两国关系，这次中国赠送歼20模型是给巴基斯坦吃上一颗“定心丸”。

http://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/k/slide_8_193_56807.html#p=14

 

[mrrehan]

Sina news: J-20 might follow the example of JF-17 joint program in the future. home used type for PLAA and export type for PAF.

在中巴空军联训结训仪式上，中巴双方互赠了纪念品。而西部战区空军司令员战厚顺中将却赠送给了巴空军飞行员一个特殊礼物，是一架歼20隐形战机模型，另外还透露，歼-20战机已实现了“中国心”。有分析认为，中国赠送巴基斯坦歼20模型或大有深意。

早在去年，有媒体报道过，歼20隐形战机是禁止出口的先进武器，就像美军的F-22一样是禁卖品。但中国也要考虑一个问题，若中国盟友的对手拥有五代战机的话，中国该如何办？有消息称，俄罗斯苏-57隐身战机即将交付空军，印度也会引进，到时如何安抚盟友巴基斯坦？

早在去年，有媒体报道过，歼20隐形战机是禁止出口的先进武器，就像美军的F-22一样是禁卖品。但中国也要考虑一个问题，若中国盟友的对手拥有五代战机的话，中国该如何办？有消息称，俄罗斯苏-57隐身战机即将交付空军，印度也会引进，到时如何安抚盟友巴基斯坦？

当然，中国最想出口的是外贸版FC-31，并不是歼20，但巴空军经过考察后认为，FC-31与其所期望的还是有一定差距，目前FC-31使用的和枭龙同源的RD-93发动机，机动性并不突出，是一款中型双发五代机，其价格定也不会太便宜。

近日，传出歼20已换装国产新型发动机，不再受俄制发动机的限制，显示中国已可大批量生产。再加上中国已经建造了三至四条歼20的脉动生产线，年产量或可达到100架左右。相信在不久后满足中国空军的需求后，或可效仿枭龙战机项目，

不排除中国或卖给巴基斯坦一些出口型歼-20，对于巴空军是求之不得，又能巩固中巴两国关系，这次中国赠送歼20模型是给巴基斯坦吃上一颗“定心丸”。

http://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/k/slide_8_193_56807.html#p=14

TRANSLATION IS:
===================
At the Sino-Pakistani Air Force joint training ceremony, the two sides donated souvenirs. While the commander of the Western theater air force commander and brutal will be presented to the Pakistan Air Force pilots a special gift, is a J-20 stealth fighter model, also revealed that the J-20 fighter has achieved a "Chinese heart." Some analysts believe that China presented the Pakistani J-20 model or great meaning.

As early as last year, the media reported that the J-20 stealth fighter is prohibited from the export of advanced weapons, like the US military F-22 is the same as prohibited goods. But China should also consider a question, if the Chinese allies opponents have five fighters, then China how to do? It is reported that the Russian Su -57 stealth fighter will soon be delivered to the Air Force, India will also introduce, how to appease allies Pakistan?

As early as last year, the media reported that the J-20 stealth fighter is prohibited from the export of advanced weapons, like the US military F-22 is the same as prohibited goods. But China should also consider a question, if the Chinese allies opponents have five fighters, then China how to do? It is reported that the Russian Su -57 stealth fighter will soon be delivered to the Air Force, India will also introduce, how to appease allies Pakistan?

Of course, China is most want to export is the foreign trade version of FC-31, is not F-20, but the Pakistan Air Force after investigation that FC-31 and its expectations or a certain gap, the current FC-31 and Xiaolong homologous RD-93 engine, mobility is not prominent, is a medium-sized dual-generation five-generation machine, the price will not be too cheap.

Recently, the J-20 has been replaced by a new domestic engine, no longer subject to restrictions on Russian-made engine, indicating that China has been mass production. Coupled with China has built three to four F-20 pulse production line, the annual output or can reach 100 or so. I believe in the near future to meet the needs of the Chinese Air Force, or can follow the Xiaolong fighter project,

Do not rule out China or sell some of Pakistan's export-type f -20, for the Pakistani Air Force is desperate, but also to consolidate the relationship between China and Pakistan, the Chinese presented the J-20 model is to Pakistan to eat a "reassurance."

 

[Zarvan]

@Zarvan what's ur take here ?chines Flankers Russian Flankers or Typhoons ?

I don't know much about Air Crafts I only try to find out what PAF is up to as for Fighter Jet it self I don't know much but what I will say is we need at least one major 4.5th Generation Fighter before we focus on 5th Generation. And in good numbers I mean close to 50.

 

[mrrehan]

I don't know much about Air Crafts I only try to find out what PAF is up to as for Fighter Jet it self I don't know much but what I will say is we need at least one major 4.5th Generation Fighter before we focus on 5th Generation. And in good numbers I mean close to 50.

Is it possible and viable for Pakistan to consider J-11D s where Pakistan can modify E-W Suites to their own needs? In view of "if we got Russian engines through Chinese why not J-11D"
@fatman17

 

[Zarvan]

Is it possible and viable for Pakistan to consider J-11D s where Pakistan can modify E-W Suites to their own needs? In view of "if we got Russian engines through Chinese why not J-11D"
@fatman17

It should be done we need a 3rd Fighter Jet fast

 

[fatman17]

Is it possible and viable for Pakistan to consider J-11D s where Pakistan can modify E-W Suites to their own needs? In view of "if we got Russian engines through Chinese why not J-11D"
@fatman17

J31 is a long term prospect, J11D or J16 would suit us well as chances of F16s are now fading fast.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Dear fallow members , First you all have to understand that JF-17 is a light bird and it is here to replace F-6s , F7s and A-5s total 200+ of them , we can not replace all birds with JF-17 ............ Its not logical and it will be deadliest mistake.
Our Mirages are getting old we have to replace them , Now we need to see what will come and replace them , Option in market are limited , Most likely J-10Ps or a home grown bird .
Our F-16s are getting old too , They are our Medium Birds and we have to start replacing them in 15 more years , for that again options are very few same as in case of Mirages like , J-10Ps , Gripen -NG or Home grown bird.
For heavy most economical option is J-11 or J-16 from China , If Russia allow , and most lethal is Typhoons but they are hell expensive .
5th Gen all depends on our economy and J-31 final prototype , If that bird is up to the mark then PAF will buy them and use there experience in Own 5th Gen program , J-31 will take 3 to 5 years and our own program will take 15+ years so we are way behind in 5th Gen category .
Its better we focus on Medium Bird and on Heavy , We need Heavy First ASAP , in Medium category PAF still have F-16s and good 10+ years . As for Mirages , we have to let them go , they are killing our pilots , and we also have a replacement in shape of J-10s , If pad is not interested in J-10s then they have to come up with clear plan for replacement of Mirages ..............
And most important before above all , we even have to see JF-17 Block III , and its out comes ............ Is that bird will up to the mark ? I really want to see what PAF load in block III and how will it performs.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

24 aircraft would cost approximately 4 billion dollars with weapon package under conservative measures and still would be enough, we would need atleast 36 for a meaning full number which would mean atleast 8 billion dollars. this is equal to 2 IMF packages(all of this is foreign exchange component)

you could buy 200 thunders for that money with no game changing technology, the only aircraft worth that money is f-35, or new fifth gen fighter in eastern market

the only feasible option i see is either used f-16s or a combination of used and new typhoons if price can be negotiated. we also have the options of J-10/flanker series, if we need range and deep strike the later is better

having said euro fighter has countries like Germany in the mix as well, and recently we have not been able to get weapons from them, so dont be surpirse if you spend 8 billion dollars(worth 200 advance thunders) and then suddenly are out of spares

the whole concept behind thunder was back bone fighter, doesnt make sense for us now to run away from it, Sweden was able to counter a bigger threat with their own fighter

i guess we need to spend that 8 billion dollars to improve our military overall rather than just 36 fighters


PLAAF is not gona provide us flankers due to russian fear factor

24 Typhoon T3s would be around $7.5bn including spare parts, weapons, etc. Such orders have two sides: (1) acquisition and (2) support.

The T3's unit flyaway cost is probably around $150m, leaving the acquisition cost at $3.6bn. A loan split across a 10 year payment term would mean annual installments of $360 m. The suppliers would need to extend export credit.

The maintenance cost can be absorbed (at least mostly) through the PAF's annual budget, though that budget will need to climb a bit.

Munition purchases can be staged with each arriving batch. It'd be worthwhile to avoid MBDA and pursue possibly lower cost NATO-compliant AAMs, PGBs, SOWs, AShMs, etc from Turkey.

The advantage of the Typhoon over Eastern options is that you can fly them in concert with the F-16s, thus leveraging joint mission planning, common facilities and Link-16. A flight of two Typhoon T3As and 4 MLU/Block-52 would be one network enabled force in the air. A solid threat for offensive air operations.

The Typhoon/F-16 can be the offensive edge while the JF-17s (ideally 200+) could be the sole defensive workhorse to deny enemy access to local airspace and to fight in close proximity areas (e.g. border, Kashmir, littoral waters, etc).

 

[Aamir Hussain]

If we had the money, we would be shopping around for the Eurofighter. Even today, if we had the cash, lot more doors would have opened for us, including joint production with Western Technonlogy Platforms.

The focus should be to bring up economic growth, doors would start opening for Western Weapons systems automatically.

Going the JF-17 route was and is a very wise decision. But now very soon we will hit a wall for upgrades that would require Westren systems and subsystems if we want to keep abreast of our next door neighbours. Which, by the way, are not only geting cutting edge weapons systems from the west but better quality of training and tactics that they lacked before.

As mentioned by one our forum colleagues, this platfrom was designed from the outset to replace F-7 and other Chinese origin a/c in PAF inventory, this, it has done with better perfromance! However, when it comes to deep strike and interdiction, the airframe lacks that capacity for longer range strike and weapons load out. This fact should not be held againt the JFT since the a/c was never designed for this puropse.

IMHO and I have said this many a times here on this forum, PAC needs to start adding composits to the airframe, and look for capabilities for longer range stand off engagments with the help of AESA and longer range AAM's.

 

[mrrehan]

24 Typhoon T3s would be around $7.5bn including spare parts, weapons, etc. Such orders have two sides: (1) acquisition and (2) support.

The T3's unit flyaway cost is probably around $150m, leaving the acquisition cost at $3.6bn. A loan split across a 10 year payment term would mean annual installments of $360 m. The suppliers would need to extend export credit.

The maintenance cost can be absorbed (at least mostly) through the PAF's annual budget, though that budget will need to climb a bit.

Munition purchases can be staged with each arriving batch. It'd be worthwhile to avoid MBDA and pursue possibly lower cost NATO-compliant AAMs, PGBs, SOWs, AShMs, etc from Turkey.

The advantage of the Typhoon over Eastern options is that you can fly them in concert with the F-16s, thus leveraging joint mission planning, common facilities and Link-16. A flight of two Typhoon T3As and 4 MLU/Block-52 would be one network enabled force in the air. A solid threat for offensive air operations.

The Typhoon/F-16 can be the offensive edge while the JF-17s (ideally 200+) could be the sole defensive workhorse to deny enemy access to local airspace and to fight in close proximity areas (e.g. border, Kashmir, littoral waters, etc).

We don't have much to spend, and don't have many options as well, what's your take on if we go for Chinese platform(J-series) and western E-suits.

 

[Gryphon]

24 Typhoon T3s would be around $7.5bn including spare parts, weapons, etc. Such orders have two sides: (1) acquisition and (2) support.

The T3's unit flyaway cost is probably around $150m, leaving the acquisition cost at $3.6bn. A loan split across a 10 year payment term would mean annual installments of $360 m. The suppliers would need to extend export credit.

The maintenance cost can be absorbed (at least mostly) through the PAF's annual budget, though that budget will need to climb a bit.

Munition purchases can be staged with each arriving batch. It'd be worthwhile to avoid MBDA and pursue possibly lower cost NATO-compliant AAMs, PGBs, SOWs, AShMs, etc from Turkey.

The advantage of the Typhoon over Eastern options is that you can fly them in concert with the F-16s, thus leveraging joint mission planning, common facilities and Link-16. A flight of two Typhoon T3As and 4 MLU/Block-52 would be one network enabled force in the air. A solid threat for offensive air operations.

The Typhoon/F-16 can be the offensive edge while the JF-17s (ideally 200+) could be the sole defensive workhorse to deny enemy access to local airspace and to fight in close proximity areas (e.g. border, Kashmir, littoral waters, etc).

I wonder why does the PAF need a long range, 9000 kg payload fighter. Indians will finalize S-400 contract in a year or two and any 4 / 4++ Gen aircraft on the 'offensive' will be having a one-way trip. IMO, Pakistani military will rely solely on ground launched cruise missiles for any 'deep strikes' within Indian territory.

PAF chief mentioned that there are only Chinese and Russian options on the table (though I am skeptical of those claims). I am inclined to predict they will announce JF-17 Block 4 and trumpet those 50 Block 3 + 50 Block 4 aircraft as the counter to anything India will have by then.

 

[Falcon26]

I wonder why does the PAF need a long range, 9000 kg payload fighter. Indians will finalize S-400 contract in a year or two and any 4 / 4++ Gen aircraft on the 'offensive' will be having a one-way trip. IMO, Pakistani military will rely solely on ground launched cruise missiles for any 'deep strikes' within Indian territory.

PAF chief mentioned that there are only Chinese and Russian options on the table (though I am skeptical of those claims). I am inclined to predict they will announce JF-17 Block 4 and trumpet those 50 Block 3 + 50 Block 4 aircraft as the counter to anything India will have by then.

S-400s are potent systems but there are more than adequate countermeasures. Will be circumvented same way the S-300s were circumvented. Besides, the Chinese field the S-400 and PAF can train against it there and sharpen countermeasures.

It’s not insurmountable as is claimed. Definitely not a one-way ticket as you suggested