Procurement of new aircraft in PAF

[Gryphon]

My post was in regards to JF-17 & cruise missiles but also EW as countermeasures to S-400.

I mean to say how good are the EW/ECM capabilities of 4++ Gen aircraft like EF Typhoon when GBAD systems have powerful AESA radars and missiles are active homing.

 

[Centurion2016]

Euro fighter typhoon I'S the most advanced air supremacy fighter on the planet bar the f22,raptor. I have discounted the chinease andcrussisn fifth gen Ss they are in ioc stage.

The thunder is a budget fighter with budget technology for budget air forces.

We are comparing a Ferrari to Ford .

 

[python-000]

since a long time we always here that the Pakistan procurement / evaluates 1000 of fighter plane but get 0000 lets see what's now !!!
R they real serious this time ???

 

[Gryphon]

In part, to counter those S-400s. The S-400 is a long-range and hi-level system, which in turn necessitates lots of low level (e.g. SPYDER, MRSAM) coverage to close gaps. Moreover, leaving the S-400 fixed in a place for too long will alert the PAF (and PA) to its location. If there is ever an opening, a large fighter can exploit it by releasing a lot in terms of SOWs (including ARM and ALCMs).

To be fair though, the future of such in land operations will fall upon 5th gen. The other part of a long-range heavy need is being able to provide maritime A2/AD, potentially over SLOCs.


Wouldn't matter unless export credit is available (or in Russia's case, countertrade).

Indians will/have deployed 18 SPYDER-MR systems in addition to their existing SHORADs and the medium range Barak being developed by Israel will also enter service soon in significant numbers.

SHORAD is covered by upgraded S-125 Pechora, Akash, Osa & Kvadrat batteries.

What exactly is the 'opening' you are talking about?
The radars are fully operational at times of tension. S-400 gives you the liberty to place the system hundreds of km's from the border. That is much more than the range of any SOW the PAF fields.

In case you are suggesting firing air and ground launched cruise missiles towards the S-400 deployment sites (which are likely airbases), you will need a large no. of platforms (Babur TEL's and Mirages in Pakistan's case) before thinking of anything 'offensive'.

Regarding Pakistan's A2/AD, I believe new corvette's & frigates are more urgently required than something like Typhoon. I would rather suggest the Navy establish an air arm operating AShM equipped JF-17's. SLOC protection is something out of PN/PAF's current & near future capacity.

Or if the PAF requires something for nuclear delivery. You earlier suggested PAF should develop a 'Raad Lite' for the JF-17 with 300kg warhead. Does Pakistan have the capability to produce such a nuclear fission warhead? As per available info, warheads on Nasr, Babur & Raad are bigger.

 

[Mrc]

$$$$$$$$

Not entirely sure....

But pak shud seriously be looking at j 11

 

[The Accountant]

Euro fighter typhoon I'S the most advanced air supremacy fighter on the planet bar the f22,raptor. I have discounted the chinease andcrussisn fifth gen Ss they are in ioc stage.

The thunder is a budget fighter with budget technology for budget air forces.

We are comparing a Ferrari to Ford .

Thats way too much generalization ...

Even F35 is advanced than Typhoon as they are in different generation ...

Typhoon is no doubt one of the best in its class but it is still a 4th generation fighter ... It is visible to radars at a considerable distance,,, both thunder and typhoon can see each other ... BVR of thunder is also of a high kill ratio ... There is no way typhoon can take on 3 is to 1 ,,, this is not a race and comparing it with cars is really stupid ...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Indians will/have deployed 18 SPYDER-MR systems in addition to their existing SHORADs and the medium range Barak being developed by Israel will also enter service soon in significant numbers.

SHORAD is covered by upgraded S-125 Pechora, Akash, Osa & Kvadrat batteries.

What exactly is the 'opening' you are talking about?
The radars are fully operational at times of tension. S-400 gives you the liberty to place the system hundreds of km's from the border. That is much more than the range of any SOW the PAF fields.

In case you are suggesting firing air and ground launched cruise missiles towards the S-400 deployment sites (which are likely airbases), you will need a large no. of platforms (Babur TEL's and Mirages in Pakistan's case) before thinking of anything 'offensive'.

Regarding Pakistan's A2/AD, I believe new corvette's & frigates are more urgently required than something like Typhoon. I would rather suggest the Navy establish an air arm operating AShM equipped JF-17's. SLOC protection is something out of PN/PAF's current & near future capacity.

Or if the PAF requires something for nuclear delivery. You earlier suggested PAF should develop a 'Raad Lite' for the JF-17 with 300kg warhead. Does Pakistan have the capability to produce such a nuclear fission warhead? As per available info, warheads on Nasr, Babur & Raad are bigger.

The PAF will still aim to undertake those offensive engagements. Dense IADS coverage is a major problem to be sure and the most viable solution will not emerge until 5th-gen fighters. However, to strike targets the PAF will likely still aim to exploit gaps in low level coverage to deploy SOWs.

SHORADS and MR-SAMs are there to bridge low level coverage gaps (left by the S-400, which is for high-level), but one would need a truly significant number of those systems to close every conceivable gap, especially along the border, which itself opens those SAMs up to other threats (e.g. guided MLRS).

SOW development for range is key, but to have the means to launch a sizable number of them when the opportunity is made available necessitates medium-to-heavyweight platforms with the requisite range and payload capacity. The alternative could be to invest in a stealth UAV with both an internal bay and integrated warhead element.

As for SLOC. IMO I do believe the PN will deploy some of the Hangor SSPs in the SLOC to deter an MEZ attempt, and we see the IN steer towards building a massive ASW element. However, ASW is still quite difficult, more so if there are enemy aircraft that might threaten ASW assets such as MPA, helicopters and surface combatants. You'd want to aim for two ideal - but mutually exclusive - opportunities: (A) have India over-commit to trying to impose a MEZ and leave itself vulnerable to asymmetrical strikes at home or (B) not bother with a MEZ at all.

 

[Shabi1]

I wonder what is PAF's take on the J-11D which is China's variant claimed similar to the SU-35. PAF did evaluate the J-11B. Previous J-11 variants were all copies with eventual handicaps, the "D" variant is their first 4.5 Gen (western classification) variant and uses their best expertise to actually improve upon the Russian design.

PAF had only a dozen F-104s in 1965 and they had very huge psychological impact as well as a prominent impact. So raising a single squadron as a stop gap should be evaluated, being Chinese the J-11D will be using the same armament/missiles that the JF-17 can carry. And since numbers are small they could be sent to China for major maintenance.

Can PAF afford to wait more for J-31 and its own 5th Gen Program, or should they look for an earlier stop gap in the form of the J-11D? Personally my opinion is waited so long already, so should wait for the J-31. What do you guys think?

 

[Centurion2016]

What difference will one squadron of J11.fighters make.

You need fifty plus I'm.

J31 is a decade away and may never enter service yet

 

[Dazzler]

What difference will one squadron of J11.fighters make.

You need fifty plus I'm.

J31 is a decade away and may never enter service yet

Keep your silly rants off this thread.

Thanks

 

[CriticalThought]

In part, to counter those S-400s. The S-400 is a long-range and hi-level system, which in turn necessitates lots of low level (e.g. SPYDER, MRSAM) coverage to close gaps. Moreover, leaving the S-400 fixed in a place for too long will alert the PAF (and PA) to its location. If there is ever an opening, a large fighter can exploit it by releasing a lot in terms of SOWs (including ARM and ALCMs).

To be fair though, the future of such in land operations will fall upon 5th gen. The other part of a long-range heavy need is being able to provide maritime A2/AD, potentially over SLOCs.


Wouldn't matter unless export credit is available (or in Russia's case, countertrade).

Sir, here is the low down on modern aerial warfare in dense EM environments.

If a radar, any radar, were to be kept turned on continuously, it would get obliterated by ARMs. This is what happened to Iraq, it was the lesson learnt by Yugoslavia. In war time, radars emit radiation in a random pattern that cannot be detected - at least easily. Think how a flesh eating plant snares its prey with honey traps. Its a subtle game of predator and prey.

You need sophisticated ELINT platforms to analyse enemy's signals and guide your aircraft accordingly. You are right, it is about finding gaps. And then taking advantage of gaps through fast action.

But it is wrong to say that EFT would be helpful in this scenario. There are no LO characteristics on the EFT. As opposed to that, the Thunder, because of is small size, is actually a better choice for quick action in dense EM environments.

In any modern air war, you don't send 'heavy strike fighters' 'deep into enemy territory' on day 1. You start by taking down air defences. And it is a very delicate art of subterfuge that involves special forces operatives, stealth helis/drones, ARM and cruise missiles, ELINT aircraft, Wild Weasel fighters such as J-16, F-16, F/A-18E Growler, and stealth aircraft. The F-35 combines wild weasel with stealth. The EFT can be configured with such pods, but its not as if its the best choice on the market for that job. What matters for SEAD missions is the total output power the fighter can generate, the sophistication of the sensors to detect radar waves, LO/Stealth to minimize own signature, and sophistication of offensive beam to jam/spoof the radar. Availability of EMP weapons is also a factor. The point being, this mission can be performed equally well, with or without EFT.

The deadly concern for PAF today, is that Rafale is a true swing role aircraft. It is the closest you can get to buying something like the F-22. You can bet the French have gone to lengths to ensure it has extremely sophisticated equipment for all of the above.

At this point, the first thing we need to be thinking is to safeguard our own airspace. The Syrian tested solution is A-100 AEWACS for long range detection + jamming, and S-400 for air defence. Obviously, you will need other systems to 'fill in the gaps'. But just acquiring them won't be enough. We need a huge investment in developing the doctrine and strategy to wield these platforms. Its a huge learning curve for the airforce, but it is the need of the hour.

Indians will/have deployed 18 SPYDER-MR systems in addition to their existing SHORADs and the medium range Barak being developed by Israel will also enter service soon in significant numbers.

SHORAD is covered by upgraded S-125 Pechora, Akash, Osa & Kvadrat batteries.

What exactly is the 'opening' you are talking about?
The radars are fully operational at times of tension. S-400 gives you the liberty to place the system hundreds of km's from the border. That is much more than the range of any SOW the PAF fields.

In case you are suggesting firing air and ground launched cruise missiles towards the S-400 deployment sites (which are likely airbases), you will need a large no. of platforms (Babur TEL's and Mirages in Pakistan's case) before thinking of anything 'offensive'.

Regarding Pakistan's A2/AD, I believe new corvette's & frigates are more urgently required than something like Typhoon. I would rather suggest the Navy establish an air arm operating AShM equipped JF-17's. SLOC protection is something out of PN/PAF's current & near future capacity.

Or if the PAF requires something for nuclear delivery. You earlier suggested PAF should develop a 'Raad Lite' for the JF-17 with 300kg warhead. Does Pakistan have the capability to produce such a nuclear fission warhead? As per available info, warheads on Nasr, Babur & Raad are bigger.

Read above.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

I think PAF should get couple of J-11D squad with the combo of JF-17 Block III until 5th Generation plane get selected or finalized under project Azm

we can replace our Mirage with J-11D it has AESA IRST radar jammers etc etc much higher payloads which we didn't get from Russia Su-35 the reason it was rejected

 

[Gryphon]

You need sophisticated ELINT platforms to analyse enemy's signals and guide your aircraft accordingly. You are right, it is about finding gaps. And then taking advantage of gaps through fast action.

But it is wrong to say that EFT would be helpful in this scenario. There are no LO characteristics on the EFT. As opposed to that, the Thunder, because of is small size, is actually a better choice for quick action in dense EM environments.

In any modern air war, you don't send 'heavy strike fighters' 'deep into enemy territory' on day 1. You start by taking down air defences. And it is a very delicate art of subterfuge that involves special forces operatives, stealth helis/drones, ARM and cruise missiles, ELINT aircraft, Wild Weasel fighters such as J-16, F-16, F/A-18E Growler, and stealth aircraft.

Absence of modern EW/ELINT platforms is a reality for PAF. In my previous posts on this thread, I have questioned the EW capability of EF Typhoon while dealing with S-400 like systems. I would rather suggest procuring IAI Harpy / Harop like suicide drones for SEAD missions.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

No wonder u say that being a brit of course.

Euro fighter typhoon I'S the most advanced air supremacy fighter on the planet bar the f22,raptor. I have discounted the chinease andcrussisn fifth gen Ss they are in ioc stage.

The thunder is a budget fighter with budget technology for budget air forces.

We are comparing a Ferrari to Ford .

 

[Imran Khan]

as i know PAF is not looking new fighter but PDF