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President may free condemned Christian woman

As a bear minimum, the President should pardon everyone on a monthly basis being held for this BS crime of blasphemy. If you can't change the system, beat it.

Like there is any shortage, of thieves, rapists, murderers in Pakistan that our state should invest in charging, trying and arresting people because they may not be saying nice things. It's high time we realized that we as Pakistanis and even as Muslims, cannot rely on throwing tantrums to exist in this world.
 
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proving that India is and will remain an intolerant society for some time to come.

That is not true. Indian govt didn't find any reason to go against Roy for his repeated comments against India. People are allowed to show their protests just like her but the govt followed the constitution and she is roaming free everywhere. There is absolutely no relation between Roy and this case because blasphemy is out of question in India.

BTW thanks to the president of Pakistan for such order.
 
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YLH: The Holy Quran is silent on the issue of blasphemy. The Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) seems to suggest the exact opposite.

Just to remind everyone, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) forgave those that actually threw garbage on him, this forgiveness earned him the conversion of the very woman that threw garbage on him.

Imagine if the Quraysh had blasphemy laws. Essentially how Islam took off was blasphemy against them, so why was it okay for us to defy their belief but no one can defy ours?

Might is right?

Of course it is and how mighty are we? We are already seeing the reverse side of the blasphemy laws through forceful bans on Hijabs and Minarets and by some counts, soon on Halaal food.

Good job! :tup:
 
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Imagine if the Quraysh had blasphemy laws. Essentially how Islam took off was blasphemy against them, so why was it okay for us to defy their belief but no one can defy ours?


Asim, think "Enemy seeking and Enemy making" - many do not realize but that is the real intent behind these laws, see the whole narrative of defenders of Islam and Islam under attack, actually requires that you identify an enemy (Enemy seeking) - it's the same thing the US narrative of 9/11 and terrorism is about, it seeks and identifies an enemy followed by With us (submit) or Against us (die) - the effect of these blasphemy laws under the Huddood rubric is exactly the same. The more you identify the "enemy" the more enemies you make and once that pump is primed, it will take a real paradigm change to dislodge it.
 
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Imagine if the Quraysh had blasphemy laws. Essentially how Islam took off was blasphemy against them, so why was it okay for us to defy their belief but no one can defy ours?

How can you compare the two? No one on the planet earth can draw a comparison between the two, because it is about being right. Their righteousness is a proven historical fact.

Might is right?

No dear,

Right is might.
But if you need might to prove something right, it means you are wrong somewhere. Right rests with people's conscience.

We are already seeing the reverse side of the blasphemy laws through forceful bans on Hijabs and Minarets and by some counts, soon on Halaal food.

Criticize and force to annul the laws, ban forcefully. . . might seems to be right here though
phooko'n sy ye charagh bujhaya na jaey ga
 
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Thank you friends for sharing your thoughts. It is very encouraging to be amongst people who think.

As for islam and muslim angle of pakistan, there is no problem with islam because as it has been explained, islam is all about all people living with each other in peace and harmony. Not only that but it is about bidding people to cooperate and work together for the mutual and common good of all people in the land.

The problem is lack of proper education in pakistan that helps people think about things at higher level. One can see when we are born, we do not know much but as we grow and learn our understanding of things and views about things become more and more informed. There is big difference in our views about anything the way we looked at it as children and then as grown ups.

In pakistan when it comes to religious education of muslims it has been neglected and left to fringe elements like madrassas. These madrassas can hardly teach children things that are out of their reach and then there are also sectarians interest. Therefore the understanding of islam that children get in these madrasas is not what it is supposed to be. Children are not raised in most of these madrasas to be open minded about things rather they are given a tunnel vision and call it islamic religious education.

What we can do is share the knowledge with each other as much as we can and discuss things so that we can help our society become open, progressive and thereby prosperous.

There are many discussion videos freely available on the internet that help us understand various things about religion of islam.

For example, I posted links to discussion of hudood ordinance. They are 12 videos in this series. There are likewise videos regarding other issues that clarify what islam really is all about ie see Status of Hadeeth discussion.


or

Taqleed in shariah discussion


Likewise there are many other videos that help us know about islam and muslims according to scholars of islam from various sects.

It is a very healthy sign in my view that scholars from all sects are now beginning to discuss their differences in a civilised manner rather than threatening each other or actually killing each other.

we too should try our best to help expand this so that we can effectively fight religious ignorance in pakistan. This is the best way to bring muslims to peace and cooperation with the rest of people in the world. Isolationist teachings in the name of islam are very damaging for pakistan in my view and therefore for all of us. It is our duty therefore to help each other realise errors in our views and outlook on the real world as a majority muslim nation. For peace, progress and prosperity of our nation we must help each other correct our focus as well as our goal.

regards and all the best.
 
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Mughal

You have suggested that Madaress have done a terrible job at imparting Islam as you or I and others such as us understand it --- but was that their mission? Their mission based on their funding was to impart Islam as it is understood in Saudi Arabia and by Jamaati radicals in Pakistan and they have done a pretty good job at it.

Can Pakistanis be "re-educated" as what the substance of Islam is in your opinion, if so, how?
 
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Thank you dear muse for raising the points.

As far as I can think, we humans are bound by our individual circummtances eg you will agree that in case of beliefs, we follow our parents to begin with and then as wider a society as is within our reach or experience. Therefore in most cases it is wrong to blame anyone for whatever results from that. However blame is right if we have some opportunity to be better yet we fail to take advantage of it. For example, we are born ignorant knowing nothing about life in this world. It is wrong in my view to blame anyone for that because it is a natural situation ie we cannot do anything to change this situation. However, after we are born we still depend on others to raise us. This again is not in our control as to how people responsible for us raise us eg parents, relatives and wider society. We are born into an already existing system of life or an environment wherein our parents etc are all bound to some degree by their circumstances. This is why we usually follow our parents religion as well as profession for earning our living. This is because we find it easier to do things that we have learned from our family and relatives and friends than to learn something completely new.

Therefore a muslim child is a muslim and a hindu child is a hindu or a child of farmer is also farmer and the child of a doctor is likely to be a doctor because this is what is learned within the family as we grow. To change from one to another needs a lot more effort on one's part because one has top learn a lot of new things. In real world most people have little spare time to be able to do all that and as a result the change is very slow.

Likewise some time humanity suffers quite a lot because of itself eg wars of conquests ruined world many times over creating setbacks in human civilisation. So if life itself is full of problems as it is and then people also add to them by doing stupid things due to their shortsightedness and undue greed and arrogance then things really slow down human progress and prosperity.

Likewise in recent history world war one and two destroyed our world quite a lot and set us centuries back. Under such circumstances peoples' very survival was at stake than thinking about progress of humanity. You see education is not a priority when choice is between death and survival. All planing only comes after we survive and stabilise our food chan. This means as people began to settle down a bit they started building up their societies again and that is when education was thought about. Since poeple had little means for it they just taught each other what they knew.

In case of pakistan, we need to look at history of muslims in india. India was a great place under rajput rule when muslims began attacking it and gradually made in roads and finally tookover india. Then there came in fighting between muslims and finally mughal king jalal uddeen m akbar managed to bring india back to its former glory and beyond but later even his decendents also fell into dispute and the country was set on conflicting course by aurangzeb alamgeer due to his creation of religious divide amongst people. He was an ignorant mullah if you like who thought islam was all about treating nonmuslims bad.

Once you make the mistake of setting up a poeple to have civil wars then it is not possible to save the land from devastation. This is why battles between hindus and muslims started and continued till british tookover india in 1857. There is lesson in all this for us today not to make the same mistakes. Muslims were on top of the world when they were open minded but always at the bottom whenever they became narrow minded bigots.

Regardless india was finally partitioned by the british and again it was mainly because of the prevailing circumstances at the time ie the hindus and muslims were not sensible enough to find the ways to be able to live together on equal footing on basis of fairness and social justice for all. Suspicion, mistrust and distrust settled in and so things went bad to worse. Partition was not a good thing nor it was done in a sensible way because 14 million poeple greatly suffered during that time. Such a thing never happened before this in human history. Kashmir is still a thorny issue and now both sides of the divide are nuclear powers. In both countries poverty is at its maximum and poor and weak are totally crushed under the weight of out of control inflation and lack of education and jobs opportunities etc etc. Above all this the corruption in each of our countries is devastating lives.

So there is natural situation as well as manmade due to which we have the situation in pakistan. As for importing of islamic ideology from saudia, it is a small part of it but major part is people not understanding the real issues and reliigon in that context.

When we look at islam there are three islams a)islam in the quran in its own context b)islam of sectarians in their own context and c)islam of political elite in their own context.

I have explained real islam in my posts and that islam is not a problem because reason does not need guns ie it is powerful enough on its own to force one to accept it.

The sectarian islam is obvious to all of us eg shia, sunni, deobandi, brelavi etc. These good muslims are beating up each other and even blowing up each other, isn't that great? Do I need say anything more?

The political elite islam is obvious from this very thread where weak and poor and minorites are legally persecuted and prosecuted in the name of islam. This is the best form of islam, don't you agree? Muslims are famous people around the world aren't they?

Looking at saudi version of islam, saudia is an absolute monarchy and it suits best the absolute monarchy to have a interpretation of islam that secures it. Their version of islam looks after them and so they look after that version because it helps them survive.

The question is, why saudies are spreading their version of islam around the globe? Because it makes a good political, social and business sense for them. Being king in a land that is respected by so many people around the world means a lot if one could realise ie it is a huge political advantage over whole islamic ummah ie they are ruling all muslims so to speak. Also it is great social previlage without spending a dime ie it gives them status in muslim society. So many poeplle turning up on hajj and umrah each and every year, brings them loads of money to spend as they like.

One will see mullahs preaching ritualism of islam after aqaaid rather than socialism of islam which is its right priorioty order in quranic islamic context. It is because building of society is more important than merely practicing ritualism of islam. Rich muslims go on hajj and umrah as if they are going on holidays the while a lot more important things are not given any attention at all. People will do all they can to build a masjid but never a good school or hospital or other social infrastuctures to help poeple have education and be able to earn their livelihood. This shows how people have their priorities wrong way round in the name of religion.

So there is urgent need for us to get our attention focused on things that are more important. We must target our already very limited ways and means and resources towards more beneficial things rather than on things that have no return. Because if we spent whaever little we have on things that give us no return then we have nothing more to invest in our future. Does anyone run his business like that? Investing in our proper education is absolutely vital if our children are going to have any future. This is a must as far as islam is concerned. When the prophet moved to madinah he first build the mosque ie a centre for people to gether and discuss and take care of issues of daily concern.

Prayer in masjid is not about praying but allowing poeple the opportunity for gathering so that they remain alert about what is going on in society and outside. The ritual of hajj or friday gathering served the same purpose but for wider community. The spirit of brothhood is as if gone from muslim minds. Religion has become a mere spiritless exercise. Rather than caring and sharing muslims have become killers of each other instead in the name of their religion. This is a very sad state of affairs indeed.

So if we want to turn things around, we need to work at it by reintroducing the religion to the people in its proper context that helps people be better human beings by serving humanity. This means we start bringing down political elites' islam and sectarian islam by showing clearly to people what real islam is all about. So that we could get muslims to join the rest of people of pakistan to built it in to a great nation that we all could be proud of.

We should start turning majids into proper educational centres the way masjid was used in time of the prophet. We have gone downwards rather than building on that idea. Is there any point in building such a huge structure and then using it only for several minutes each day for prayers? This is irresponsible waste of resources at grand scale the while our kids use tents for schools.

People build huge structures on graves of sants etc yet do not provide for the children that are our future and that this is our religious duty as well as legal and emotional responsibility. Why have we turned islamic teaching on their head? Who benefits from that and who loses as a result?

It is a huge issue so it cannot be dealt with in one go but we should keep on asking the right questions and hopefully we will get the answers as we continue discussing things of concern.






regards and all the best.
 
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A lovely post, I join you and our own Niaz Sahab in these concerns.

I have come to realize that all "constructs" have to be by definition, be "created" - I understand this this now, almost intuitively, but of course it took a very long time.

I argued previously that the only successful attempt to deal with Mullah-ism was that undertaken by the great kemal Pasha. Atta Turk and I have also argued that the Pakistani nation, by culture, by disposition, by history, is not a state that can take the kind of action Atta Turk took - the alternative is to suffer many many years of obscurantism with not a hope of success in countering it successfully - where does that leave us?

BTW - onthe "State that would not fail" thread by rabzon, there is a link to the book "Islamic Leviathan" by Syed Vali Nasr, a must read - and by accessing the link you may have the book for free - I do strongly encourage reading it.
 
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The President pardoning the condemned is not the only way she can be saved. The women or her family members should launch an appeal against the hearing in SC with CJ ending up making Exceptions.
The Fact that Religious sentiments are so correlated to this case that even the Gov Fears to take Action. Pardoning may make some of the Religious factions to exploit this matter to a level that they can creat unrest and might perhaps revolt against the Gov and giving the Sheriffs and others some bone to lick. Plus PPP could also easily endup loosing some of the votes.
Though i firmly agree with the notion that Blasphemy Laws should be repealed and this women should be freed But there has to be some other kind of Modus Operandi to deal with the Matter Except leaving on the shoulders of already Damned Mr 10% ..:)
 
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please Mr President release this poor soul and let her get back to her kids , Also do us all a favour and abolish this blasphemy law plzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
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H Nisar: Why Muslims Are So Backward

Hasan Nisar Exposes The Elite Class of His Country



Nisar: Pakistan's Distortion of History


Hasan Nisar: Should US Bomb Pakistan?



 
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By pardoning this lady, surely Zardari’s sin will be minimized. The great almighty (PBUH) may also pardon him from few of his crimes.
 
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Yasser Latif Hamdani
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President Obama, the US, the IMF, the World Bank and the entire western world should immediately stop assisting Pakistan in every field from humanitarian aid to military aid till Pakistan puts its house in order.

Actually this will only strengthen the mullahs and terrorists.

The last thing we need is for Pakistani moderates to be perceived as doing the West's bidding.
 
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An interesting and valid point. You know Mr. Hamdani's email address is included, if you like do also include him in the conversation.
 
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