Poverty in Asia - Let me finish that debat once and for all

[Lure]

I have seen so many poverty debates lately on forum. There are a lot of ideas flying around but we need some concrete definitions as well in terms of what poverty is and situation of Asian Nations in terms of poverty.

First of all we need to define what poor is.

By definition poor means "the group that has less resources then others". Meaning this term is relative. So unless a nation does not distribute the wealth in an absolute egalitarian manner then there will be poor people in that nation. This is the philosophical approach. However there are some concrete norms on what poverty is in terms of today's resources.

Absolute Poverty means being in a condition that can't meet the following requirements.

• Food: Body Mass Index must be above 16.
• Safe drinking water: Water must not come solely from rivers and ponds, and must be available nearby (less than 15 minutes' walk each way).
• Sanitation facilities: Toilets or latrines must be accessible in or near the home.
• Health: Treatment must be received for serious illnesses and pregnancy.
• Shelter: Homes must have fewer than four people living in each room. Floors must not be made of dirt, mud, or clay.
• Education: One must attend school or otherwise learn to read.
• Information: One must have access to newspapers, radios, televisions, computers, or telephones at home.
• Access to services: One should have access to complete panoply of education, health, legal, social, and financial (credit) services.

If someone can't meet requirements, this means that person is absolutely poor. So some international constitutions thried to define the monetary treshold that if a person makes less money then that treshold that means that person won't be able to meet the specifications to avoid the absolute poverty.

The old definition was made by UN. "If a person can not have an income of 1$ (nominal) /day than that person can't meet the specifications explained above which means that person is absolutely poor."

Then there is revised definition by the World Bank = 1.25$ (PPP) /day. World Bank measures the poverty treshold in terms of Purchasing Pover Parity because that actually gives how much resource you can access.

UN also came with an upper bound 2$(PPP)/day of income. 2$(PPP)/day treshold is something like a poverty upper bound meaning that "if a person is making more then 2$(PPP)/day then this person is most probably not in a situation of absolute poverty".

First of all I wanna give you the 2$(PPP)/day data for some countries I select that were subject to discussion in here. The data is obtained from the World Bank;

Czech Republic (2011) : 0.1% of the population makes less then 2$(PPP)/day
Turkey (2011) : 2.6% of the population
Brazil (2011) : 8.2% of the population
China (2011) : 18.6% of the population
Vietnam (2010) : 16.8% of the population
India (2011) : 60.6% of the population

Secondly I wanna give you the 1.25$(PPP)/day data for the same countries above. The data is obtained from the World Bank;

Czech Republic (2011) : 0.0% of the population makes less then 1.25$(PPP)/day
Turkey (2011) : 0.1% of the population
Brazil (2012) : 3.8% of the population
China (2011) : 6.3% of the population
Vietnam (2012) : 2.4% of the population
India (2011) : 24.7% of the population

What does both statistics mean? Let me explain. 24.7% of people in India are definitely living in absolute poverty situation. (100 - 60.6) 39.4% of people living in India are definitely not living in absolute poverty. And the rest (35.9%) is living in the treshold of absolute poverty (neither can absolutely avoid the absolute poverty or does fall into absolute poverty.)

@Bong Thank you for your correction. I've updated the figures. For 2$(PPP)/day I've used the headcount version (which is the right one by definition as you've mentioned), and for 1.25$(PPP)/day I've used the poverty gap data accidentaly. Right now everything should seem fine.

China, Vietnam, India etc. countries are still doing their best to beat that tresholds. There are still millions living in those countries in those conditions that's why they are using the internationally defined tresholds.

On the other hand if we consider Czech Republic a very tiny fraction of the population lives in the condition of absolute poverty. That's why countries like Czech Republic, Japan etc. does not use the definition of absolute poverty for their poverty treshold and they use the term "Relative Poverty" instead and define their more relaxed poverty definitions and measure that statistic only for more Humanitarian Development purposes.

And this is the most important. There are some Chinese members who are making fun of poor people in India. Altough I admire the development of China, such people are ruining the countries' image. Every Indian living in absolute poverty is responsibility of all of us. We are people, we coexist and cooperate.

Edit 2 : People from every nationality is mocking with poverty. I'm not targeting any ethnicity. Some banned troll also stated some fake data about poverty in China. China -as state policy- doing many projects in Africa and South East Asia to improve people's livelihoods. So I've targeted only a few names here not everyone. @Steakhouse @terranMarine

 

[alaungphaya]

I want to thank you for this. Too many people don't seem to understand the issue of poverty or rather want to understand the issue of poverty. It all boils down to petty point scoring for too many people.

 

[Steakhouse]

I have seen so many poverty debates lately on forum. There are a lot of ideas flying around but we need some concrete definitions as well in terms of what poverty is and situation of Asian Nations in terms of poverty.

First of all we need to define what poor is.

By definition poor means "the group that has less resources then others". Meaning this term is relative. So unless a nation does not distribute the wealth in an absolute egalitarian manner then there will be poor people in that nation. This is the philosophical approach. However there are some concrete norms on what poverty is in terms of today's resources.

Absolute Poverty means being in a condition that can't meet the following requirements.

• Food: Body Mass Index must be above 16.
• Safe drinking water: Water must not come solely from rivers and ponds, and must be available nearby (less than 15 minutes' walk each way).
• Sanitation facilities: Toilets or latrines must be accessible in or near the home.
• Health: Treatment must be received for serious illnesses and pregnancy.
• Shelter: Homes must have fewer than four people living in each room. Floors must not be made of dirt, mud, or clay.
• Education: One must attend school or otherwise learn to read.
• Information: One must have access to newspapers, radios, televisions, computers, or telephones at home.
• Access to services: One should have access to complete panoply of education, health, legal, social, and financial (credit) services.

If someone can't meet requirements, this means that person is absolutely poor. So some international constitutions thried to define the monetary treshold that if a person makes less money then that treshold that means that person won't be able to meet the specifications to avoid the absolute poverty.

The old definition was made by UN. "If a person can not have an income of 1$ (nominal) /day than that person can't meet the specifications explained above which means that person is absolutely poor."

Then there is revised definition by the World Bank = 1.25$ (PPP) /day. World Bank measures the poverty treshold in terms of Purchasing Pover Parity because that actually gives how much resource you can access.

UN also came with an upper bound 2$(PPP)/day of income. 2$(PPP)/day treshold is something like a poverty upper bound meaning that "if a person is making more then 2$(PPP)/day then this person is most probably not in a situation of absolute poverty".

First of all I wanna give you the 2$(PPP)/day data for some countries I select that were subject to discussion in here. The data is obtained from the World Bank;

Czech Republic (2011) : 0.1% of the population makes less then 2$(PPP)/day
Turkey (2011) : 2.6% of the population
Brazil (2011) : 8.2% of the population
China (2011) : 18.6% of the population
Vietnam (2010) : 16.8% of the population
India (2011) : 60.6% of the population

Secondly I wanna give you the 1.25$(PPP)/day data for the same countries above. The data is obtained from the World Bank;

Czech Republic (2011) : 0.1% of the population makes less then 1.25$(PPP)/day
Turkey (2011) : 0% of the population
Brazil (2011) : 2.5% of the population
China (2011) : 1.3% of the population
Vietnam (2010) : 0.8% of the population
India (2011) : 5.1% of the population

What does both statistics mean? Let me explain. 5.1% of people in India are definitely living in absolute poverty situation. (100 - 60.6) 39.4% of people living in India are definitely not living in absolute poverty. And the rest (54.5%) is living in the treshold of absolute poverty (neither can absolutely avoid the absolute poverty or does fall into absolute poverty.)

China, Vietnam, India etc. countries are still doing their best to beat that tresholds. There are still millions living in those countries in those conditions that's why they are using the internationally defined tresholds.

On the other hand if we consider Czech Republic a very tiny fraction of the population lives in the condition of absolute poverty. That's why countries like Czech Republic, Japan etc. does not use the definition of absolute poverty for their poverty treshold and they use the term "Relative Poverty" instead and define their more relaxed poverty definitions and measure that statistic only for more Humanitarian Development purposes.

And this is the most important. There are some idiot Chinese members who are making fun of poor people in India. Altough I admire the development of China, such people are ruining the countries' image. Every Indian living in absolute poverty is responsibility of all of us. We are people, we coexist and cooperate.

You only single out Chinese made fun of the poor in India, what about Pakistan, Vietnamese, Indian, American, Turkish also made fun of other nation suffer poverty? Indian even worse in mocking the poor in China. Be more objective if your intention promote empathy tween people to people interaction toward the topic with human suffer the stricken poverty around the world. Do not single out any nationality in particular like the case you point your finger at the Chinese.

 

[Lure]

You only single out Chinese made fun of the poor in India, what about Pakistan, Vietnamese, Indian, American, Turkish also made fun of other nation suffer poverty? Indian even worse in mocking the poor in China. Be more objective if your intention promote empathy tween people to people interaction toward the topic with human suffer the stricken poverty around the world. Do not single out any nationality in particular like the case you point your finger at the Chinese.

I've done what you said so many times before. You can check my previous messages. I've supported China against my fellow Turkish members here. If I do have a bias that clouds my objectivity, it's in favor of China not against it. However I don't usually stay quiet if I see someone making fun of poverty.

 

[terranMarine]

I've done what you said so many times before. You can check my previous messages. I've supported China against my fellow Turkish members here. If I do have a bias that clouds my objectivity, it's in favor of China not against it. However I don't usually stay quiet if I see someone making fun of poverty.

Excuse me but it was that Indian that started a thread joking of China with 400 mln people living with 1 dollar a day. So before accusing Chinese joking of Indian poverty you should see who started it first.

 

[Steakhouse]

I've done what you said so many times before. You can check my previous messages. I've supported China against my fellow Turkish members here. If I do have a bias that clouds my objectivity, it's in favor of China not against it. However I don't usually stay quiet if I see someone making fun of poverty.

I commend your action for not seeking pleasure on other demise. I just want to let you know many poster from different country guilty of laughing at the poor in this world.

 

[esolve]

I have seen so many poverty debates lately on forum. There are a lot of ideas flying around but we need some concrete definitions as well in terms of what poverty is and situation of Asian Nations in terms of poverty.

First of all we need to define what poor is.

By definition poor means "the group that has less resources then others". Meaning this term is relative. So unless a nation does not distribute the wealth in an absolute egalitarian manner then there will be poor people in that nation. This is the philosophical approach. However there are some concrete norms on what poverty is in terms of today's resources.

Absolute Poverty means being in a condition that can't meet the following requirements.

• Food: Body Mass Index must be above 16.
• Safe drinking water: Water must not come solely from rivers and ponds, and must be available nearby (less than 15 minutes' walk each way).
• Sanitation facilities: Toilets or latrines must be accessible in or near the home.
• Health: Treatment must be received for serious illnesses and pregnancy.
• Shelter: Homes must have fewer than four people living in each room. Floors must not be made of dirt, mud, or clay.
• Education: One must attend school or otherwise learn to read.
• Information: One must have access to newspapers, radios, televisions, computers, or telephones at home.
• Access to services: One should have access to complete panoply of education, health, legal, social, and financial (credit) services.

If someone can't meet requirements, this means that person is absolutely poor. So some international constitutions thried to define the monetary treshold that if a person makes less money then that treshold that means that person won't be able to meet the specifications to avoid the absolute poverty.

The old definition was made by UN. "If a person can not have an income of 1$ (nominal) /day than that person can't meet the specifications explained above which means that person is absolutely poor."

Then there is revised definition by the World Bank = 1.25$ (PPP) /day. World Bank measures the poverty treshold in terms of Purchasing Pover Parity because that actually gives how much resource you can access.

UN also came with an upper bound 2$(PPP)/day of income. 2$(PPP)/day treshold is something like a poverty upper bound meaning that "if a person is making more then 2$(PPP)/day then this person is most probably not in a situation of absolute poverty".

First of all I wanna give you the 2$(PPP)/day data for some countries I select that were subject to discussion in here. The data is obtained from the World Bank;

Czech Republic (2011) : 0.1% of the population makes less then 2$(PPP)/day
Turkey (2011) : 2.6% of the population
Brazil (2011) : 8.2% of the population
China (2011) : 18.6% of the population
Vietnam (2010) : 16.8% of the population
India (2011) : 60.6% of the population

Secondly I wanna give you the 1.25$(PPP)/day data for the same countries above. The data is obtained from the World Bank;

Czech Republic (2011) : 0.1% of the population makes less then 1.25$(PPP)/day
Turkey (2011) : 0% of the population
Brazil (2011) : 2.5% of the population
China (2011) : 1.3% of the population
Vietnam (2010) : 0.8% of the population
India (2011) : 5.1% of the population

What does both statistics mean? Let me explain. 5.1% of people in India are definitely living in absolute poverty situation. (100 - 60.6) 39.4% of people living in India are definitely not living in absolute poverty. And the rest (54.5%) is living in the treshold of absolute poverty (neither can absolutely avoid the absolute poverty or does fall into absolute poverty.)

China, Vietnam, India etc. countries are still doing their best to beat that tresholds. There are still millions living in those countries in those conditions that's why they are using the internationally defined tresholds.

On the other hand if we consider Czech Republic a very tiny fraction of the population lives in the condition of absolute poverty. That's why countries like Czech Republic, Japan etc. does not use the definition of absolute poverty for their poverty treshold and they use the term "Relative Poverty" instead and define their more relaxed poverty definitions and measure that statistic only for more Humanitarian Development purposes.

And this is the most important. There are some idiot Chinese members who are making fun of poor people in India. Altough I admire the development of China, such people are ruining the countries' image. Every Indian living in absolute poverty is responsibility of all of us. We are people, we coexist and cooperate.

China (2011) : 18.6% of the population

I'm not sure whether it is true in 2011, because I didn't pay attention to economy issues before. But now, since I know more about the country, I'm fully sure that it is not possible at all. Part of the reasons may be that the salaries, job opportunities and Chinese Yuan exchange rate has increased a lot. I don;t believe this data coz it is just violate the common sense.

As is known to all, it is very very easy for rural ppl to find a job in cities in China. There are a lot of labor shortages. And there are government allowances for poor ppl. It is not possible that they only make $2 per day as income.

some Chinese netizens like @j20 think it might be true that there are 80 million ppl under poverty line, coz they think there are disabled/old/orphan/lazy ppl. But, hey, aren't there disabled/old/orphan/lazy ppl in Turkey and Brazil?

Since the data is submitted by repsective governments. I feel that the methodologies used by different countries are different.

In China, the survey tasks are distributed to local governments. When local surveyor ask about income, the surveyed ppl may lie so as to get financial support. Some regions, in order to get financial support from the central government, may also lie. Fake "poor regions" are very common in China.

 

[Bong]

@Lure good post. But Indian members arent saint either. They make fun of other countries and are very arrogant. Sometime its useful to show them their real condition.

And where from you get this data. India's poverty 5.1% who earns less than 1.25$(PPP)/day.
Check out again its 24.7%
Poverty headcount ratio at $1.25 a day (PPP) (% of population) | Data | Graph

 

[Lure]

China (2011) : 18.6% of the population

I'm not sure whether it is true in 2011, because I didn't pay attention to economy issues before. But now, since I know more about the country, I'm fully sure that it is not possible at all. Part of the reasons may be that the salaries, job opportunities and Chinese Yuan exchange rate has increased a lot. I don;t believe this data coz it is just violate the common sense.

As is known to all, it is very very easy to find a job in cities in China. There are a lot of labor shortages. And there are government allowances for poor ppl. It is not possible that they only make $2 per day as income.

some Chinese netizens think it might be true that there are 80 million ppl under poverty line, coz they think there are disabled/old/orphan/lazy ppl. But, hey, aren't there disabled/old/orphan/lazy ppl in Turkey and Brazil?

Since the data is submitted by repsective governments. I feel that the methodologies used by different countries are different.

According to CIA World Factbook, China announced it's poverty treshold as 363$/year meaning roughly 1$/ day and 6.1% of the population is below that line.

The World Factbook

So no China is not poor. 35 years of hard work paid off. So if someone says China is poor you should laugh not reply. However India is really poor and making fun of them makes you look bad.

@BoQ77 Thanks for the correction. I'm not gonna read statistics again when I'm too sleepy.

 

[Lure]

@Lure good post. But Indian members arent saint either. They make fun of other countries and are very arrogant. Sometime its useful to show them their real condition.

And where from you get this data. India's poverty 5.1% who earns less than 1.25$(PPP)/day.
Check out again its 24.7%
Poverty headcount ratio at $1.25 a day (PPP) (% of population) | Data | Graph

Here is the link : Poverty gap at $1.25 a day (PPP) (%) | Data | Table

That's interesting.

 

[esolve]

According to CIA World Factbook, China changed it's poverty treshold as 3630$/year meaning roughly 10$/ day and 6.1% of the population is below that line.

The World Factbook

So no China is not poor. 35 years of hard work paid off. So if someone says China is poor you should laugh not reply. However India is really poor and making fun of them makes you look bad.

China is still poor, I need to tell the truth.
$10 is also not possible, $300 is still higher than the lowest salaries of many small cities.

But if you are not old/disabled/lazy/child, it is just too easy to find a job as restaurant waiter, supermarket , employee, gatekeeper, cleaner, earning around $200-500/month. Low level factory worker earn about $400-800/month Construction/delivery worker may earn up to $2000 or more dollars per month.
$2 means 60 dollars per month, that is ridiculous.

 

[BoQ77]

Someone feel like being attacked to hear how many percent their people in poverty.
I myself want higher ratio in my country, the govt cannot stop in improving our living conditions.

 

[Bong]

Here is the link : Poverty gap at $1.25 a day (PPP) (%) | Data | Table

That's interesting.

Why you've chosen different sources to compare. I dont understand well what is this poverty gap. The same source says India's 19.7% according to $2 a day. Again you said above 60%
Poverty gap at $2 a day (PPP) (%) | Data | Table

I dont think you have chosen a proper source to compare countries poverty line.
This should be the perfect approach.

Poverty headcount ratio at $2 a day (PPP) (% of population) | Data | Graph
Poverty headcount ratio at $1.25 a day (PPP) (% of population) | Data | Graph

 

[AgentOrange]

I have seen so many poverty debates lately on forum. There are a lot of ideas flying around but we need some concrete definitions as well in terms of what poverty is and situation of Asian Nations in terms of poverty.

First of all we need to define what poor is.

By definition poor means "the group that has less resources then others". Meaning this term is relative. So unless a nation does not distribute the wealth in an absolute egalitarian manner then there will be poor people in that nation. This is the philosophical approach. However there are some concrete norms on what poverty is in terms of today's resources.

Absolute Poverty means being in a condition that can't meet the following requirements.

• Food: Body Mass Index must be above 16.
• Safe drinking water: Water must not come solely from rivers and ponds, and must be available nearby (less than 15 minutes' walk each way).
• Sanitation facilities: Toilets or latrines must be accessible in or near the home.
• Health: Treatment must be received for serious illnesses and pregnancy.
• Shelter: Homes must have fewer than four people living in each room. Floors must not be made of dirt, mud, or clay.
• Education: One must attend school or otherwise learn to read.
• Information: One must have access to newspapers, radios, televisions, computers, or telephones at home.
• Access to services: One should have access to complete panoply of education, health, legal, social, and financial (credit) services.

If someone can't meet requirements, this means that person is absolutely poor. So some international constitutions thried to define the monetary treshold that if a person makes less money then that treshold that means that person won't be able to meet the specifications to avoid the absolute poverty.

The old definition was made by UN. "If a person can not have an income of 1$ (nominal) /day than that person can't meet the specifications explained above which means that person is absolutely poor."

Then there is revised definition by the World Bank = 1.25$ (PPP) /day. World Bank measures the poverty treshold in terms of Purchasing Pover Parity because that actually gives how much resource you can access.

UN also came with an upper bound 2$(PPP)/day of income. 2$(PPP)/day treshold is something like a poverty upper bound meaning that "if a person is making more then 2$(PPP)/day then this person is most probably not in a situation of absolute poverty".

First of all I wanna give you the 2$(PPP)/day data for some countries I select that were subject to discussion in here. The data is obtained from the World Bank;

Czech Republic (2011) : 0.1% of the population makes less then 2$(PPP)/day
Turkey (2011) : 2.6% of the population
Brazil (2011) : 8.2% of the population
China (2011) : 18.6% of the population
Vietnam (2010) : 16.8% of the population
India (2011) : 60.6% of the population

Secondly I wanna give you the 1.25$(PPP)/day data for the same countries above. The data is obtained from the World Bank;

Czech Republic (2011) : 0.1% of the population makes less then 1.25$(PPP)/day
Turkey (2011) : 0% of the population
Brazil (2011) : 2.5% of the population
China (2011) : 1.3% of the population
Vietnam (2010) : 0.8% of the population
India (2011) : 5.1% of the population

What does both statistics mean? Let me explain. 5.1% of people in India are definitely living in absolute poverty situation. (100 - 60.6) 39.4% of people living in India are definitely not living in absolute poverty. And the rest (54.5%) is living in the treshold of absolute poverty (neither can absolutely avoid the absolute poverty or does fall into absolute poverty.)

China, Vietnam, India etc. countries are still doing their best to beat that tresholds. There are still millions living in those countries in those conditions that's why they are using the internationally defined tresholds.

On the other hand if we consider Czech Republic a very tiny fraction of the population lives in the condition of absolute poverty. That's why countries like Czech Republic, Japan etc. does not use the definition of absolute poverty for their poverty treshold and they use the term "Relative Poverty" instead and define their more relaxed poverty definitions and measure that statistic only for more Humanitarian Development purposes.

And this is the most important. There are some idiot Chinese members who are making fun of poor people in India. Altough I admire the development of China, such people are ruining the countries' image. Every Indian living in absolute poverty is responsibility of all of us. We are people, we coexist and cooperate.

Well stated sir. The crux of the trolling problem is some Indians trying to use the $1.25 dollar/day benchmark to define Indian poverty while comparing it to a $2.00 dollar/day benchmark for China. Then they posted a thread about it in China/East Asian affairs and gloated how China "had more people under the poverty line than India". All the while ignoring the life expectancy, literacy, living standards, infant mortality, the fact that China's economy is 5X larger than Indias, HDI, etc - all measurements where China left India in the dust (or in the poop, since we're talking about India).

I'm glad you're clarifying things and since you're a relatively objective third party, I hope our Indian members will see your post, heed your post, and focus on improving their own country rather than troll the Chinese section to assuage their own glaring inferiority complex and jealousy. After all, trolling the Chinese section on PDF won't build toilets for your open defecating Indian brothers and sisters. Getting off your butt and actually reducing poverty in India will.

 

[BoQ77]

According to CIA World Factbook, China changed it's poverty treshold as 3630$/year meaning roughly 10$/ day and 6.1% of the population is below that line.

The World Factbook
.

Let me correct you

This is from your link

note: in 2011, China set a new poverty line at RMB 2300 (approximately US $3,630)
(2013)

This is the correct number: RMB 2,300 ( approx. US$ 363.00 = less than 1$/day)