Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response.

[Basel]

No J-11 is not a good choice, need a specialized ground attack fighter, not a strike fighter. PAF cannot win war on air in indian airspace, they can only strike ground target by avoiding them only.

Dear J-11D is superior what India has now and its very capable multirole jet, it can carry 02 Yj-12s with multiple AAMs for protection.

Also YJ-18 is coming to PN and it also have (AShM, ASM) modes with range of 240 nautical miles, so if need arise PA can also go for those to add more teeth to its attack capabilities.

YJ-18 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PARIKRAMA]

If a tactical UAV crosses say into indian airspace, what would be the altitude? The reason i am asking is if teh comand and control is a net centric center and approach is identifying and using a proper asset, why would i then use a UAV detected by my radars (even if its Israeli or S400 itself) and engage witha missile from S400? Normally near Borders the other limited engagement SAMs would be also available. So if i can use that then why light up a S400 intercept?

You getting what i am trying to point...

Interception will be based on classes of aerial threats and will be categorised further down just like ballistic missiles or cruise missiles would be. Now a sound system would use an optimal package for certain class of aerial threats like drones. i would fire my command center fellow if he wastes a S400 SAM missile with interception of 400/250/120km ranged one. For a drone, if its altitude is within reach by other assets which are limited in area detection and range then i would use them as first frontier in and near border.

of course to add if the first frontier fails then i have to resort to second frontier S400 sam.. then by LCAs for point defence

 

[Basel]

If a tactical UAV crosses say into indian airspace, what would be the altitude? The reason i am asking is if teh comand and control is a net centric center and approach is identifying and using a proper asset, why would i then use a UAV detected by my radars (even if its Israeli or S400 itself) and engage witha missile from S400? Normally near Borders the other limited engagement SAMs would be also available. So if i can use that then why light up a S400 intercept?

You getting what i am trying to point...

Interception will be based on classes of aerial threats and will be categorised further down just like ballistic missiles or cruise missiles would be. Now a sound system would use an optimal package for certain class of aerial threats like drones. i would fire my command center fellow if he wastes a S400 SAM missile with interception of 400/250/120km ranged one. For a drone, if its altitude is within reach by other assets which are limited in area detection and range then i would use them as first frontier in and near border.

of course to add if the first frontier fails then i have to resort to second frontier S400 sam.. then by LCAs for point defence

But if those UAVs are giving Radars signature of fighter jets then how Indian air defense will respond?? And to take on layered air defence, you have to destroy it layer by layer opening up air space step by step.

 

[shaheenmissile]

S-400 has Jet vanes and no frontal control surfaces. meaning that the missile cannot maneuver after the solid fuel has burnt out. Burnout time is about 10 seconds. So the missile can only make changes to its path in the first 10 seconds of launch,after that it becomes a projectile.
For that reason i am skeptic about it's ABM capability

 

[zebra7]

Dear J-11D is superior what India has now and its very capable multirole jet, it can carry 02 Yj-12s with multiple AAMs for protection.

Also YJ-18 is coming to PN and it also have (AShM, ASM) modes with range of 240 nautical miles, so if need arise PA can also go for those to add more teeth to its attack capabilities.

YJ-18 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sir, you are not getting the point. Now be practical PAF cannot win the air war in Indian airspace at all and any attempt would be suicidal, and only lowers the air defence of Pakistan. Only option is the high use of Hale UAV not to cross the border but fly near the border to provoke the SAM, so that the radar location could be located. That would need very high degree of strategy and its not a single day work , but can involve several month before the D-Day. Also the covert agents, to be activated to give the information of the SAM sites.

Now when the SAM sites are marked, now you need is the dedicated ground attack DPSA, like Rafale or SU-34 which is capable of flying at very low level, virtually just above the tree top, at very high speed, and could carry load and are certified G level to carry such mission so that the plane always fly lower the horizon. These aircraft don't have the specialized A2A MMR instead the Radar capable of SAR mapping of wide ground area, thus making a clear picture of the ground target from long distance. E.g India have Jaguar for that role. In short doing SEAD mission for a very strong enemy. YF-18 should be only fire for the Awaac not the S-400 because it will be distroyed by S-400 smaller QRSAM.

After the destruction of the Radar sites comes the DEAD which could be done with JF-17 to fly in pakistani airspace and won't cross the border , and attacking with glide bomb or other weapons from the strandoff distance.

@PARIKRAMA your take

 

[Basel]

Sir, you are not getting the point. Now be practical PAF cannot win the air war in Indian airspace at all and any attempt would be suicidal, and only lowers the air defence of Pakistan. Only option is the high use of Hale UAV not to cross the border but fly near the border to provoke the SAM, so that the radar location could be located. That would need very high degree of strategy and its not a single day work , but can involve several month before the D-Day. Also the covert agents, to be activated to give the information of the SAM sites.

Now when the SAM sites are marked, now you need is the dedicated ground attack DPSA, like Rafale or SU-34 which is capable of flying at very low level, virtually just above the tree top, at very high speed, and could carry load and are certified G level to carry such mission so that the plane always fly lower the horizon. These aircraft don't have the specialized A2A MMR instead the Radar capable of SAR mapping of wide ground area, thus making a clear picture of the ground target from long distance. E.g India have Jaguar for that role. In short doing SEAD mission for a very strong enemy. YF-18 should be only fire for the Awaac not the S-400 because it will be distroyed by S-400 smaller QRSAM.

After the destruction of the Radar sites comes the DEAD which could be done with JF-17 to fly in pakistani airspace and won't cross the border , and attacking with glide bomb or other weapons from the strandoff distance.

PAF jets may only enter opened up air space and launch standoff munitions to open it up further. If S-400 radars are developed 300 to 500km inside Indian border and still work as FCR for SAMs then PAF & PA have to come up with solution to neutralize that threat, although fighting a defensive war PAF may not want to go beyond 200kms.

 

[zebra7]

But if those UAVs are giving Radars signature of fighter jets then how Indian air defense will respond?? And to take on layered air defence, you have to destroy it layer by layer opening up air space step by step.

To mimic a plane signature -- Idea is good, but Pakistan, don't have that capability, but China can do that. Actually mimicing plane won't be possible, but mimicking MMR Emitter is possible, but S-400 could be fooled for once, and soon Indian's will realize that, and filter that threat from the screen of Radar. Thats why I said high degree of planning and strategy.

 

[Barrel-Bomba]

Sir, you are not getting the point. Now be practical PAF cannot win the air war in Indian airspace at all and any attempt would be suicidal, and only lowers the air defence of Pakistan. Only option is the high use of Hale UAV not to cross the border but fly near the border to provoke the SAM, so that the radar location could be located. That would need very high degree of strategy and its not a single day work , but can involve several month before the D-Day. Also the covert agents, to be activated to give the information of the SAM sites.

Now when the SAM sites are marked, now you need is the dedicated ground attack DPSA, like Rafale or SU-34 which is capable of flying at very low level, virtually just above the tree top, at very high speed, and could carry load and are certified G level to carry such mission so that the plane always fly lower the horizon. These aircraft don't have the specialized A2A MMR instead the Radar capable of SAR mapping of wide ground area, thus making a clear picture of the ground target from long distance. E.g India have Jaguar for that role. In short doing SEAD mission for a very strong enemy. YF-18 should be only fire for the Awaac not the S-400 because it will be distroyed by S-400 smaller QRSAM.

After the destruction of the Radar sites comes the DEAD which could be done with JF-17 to fly in pakistani airspace and won't cross the border , and attacking with glide bomb or other weapons from the strandoff distance.

@PARIKRAMA your take

decoys are not a new tactic

I'm sure there are counter-counter measures that all modern multi-layered air defence forces employ.

in the current known Indo/Pak theatre, the S-400 is nothing short of a game-changer, switch one on and they have nowhere to run, even deep within their own airspace, set a couple flankers loose on them and it's game, set, match.

 

[zebra7]

PAF jets may only enter opened up air space and launch standoff munitions to open it up further. If S-400 radars are developed 300 to 500km inside Indian border and still work as FCR for SAMs then PAF & PA have to come up with solution to neutralize that threat, although fighting a defensive war PAF may not want to go beyond 200kms.

Why are you thinking that they will be deployed 300-500 km inside the border. They will be deployed near the cities or the target of great importance. And the open space what you are talking what will you do to attack when there will be no base or city or installation.

And you are forgetting the Ground Survellance Radars, and Awaac Falcon in the indian side.

decoys are not a new tactic

I'm sure there are counter-counter measures that all modern multi-layered air defence forces employ.

in the current known Indo/Pak theatre, the S-400 is nothing short of a game-changer, switch one on and they have nowhere to run, even deep within their own airspace, set a couple flankers loose on them and it's game, set, match.

Thanks for joining the party late and then asking for the cake topping.

Mate, hadn't used the decoy option in this post. however read my earlier post for that.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Pakistan, don't have that capability

Give me source for your claim

 

[Osiris]

PAF jets may only enter opened up air space and launch standoff munitions to open it up further. If S-400 radars are developed 300 to 500km inside Indian border and still work as FCR for SAMs then PAF & PA have to come up with solution to neutralize that threat, although fighting a defensive war PAF may not want to go beyond 200kms.

What if the SAM is deployed just 100 Km from Pakistani border. 90 % of Pakistani airbases will be in its range....where as the SAM sites will still be safe from Pakistani artillery and ground forces.

PAF aircrafts can be shot down as soon as they take off.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

But if those UAVs are giving Radars signature of fighter jets then how Indian air defense will respond?? And to take on layered air defence, you have to destroy it layer by layer opening up air space step by step.

You are considering a MALD concept right? The Miniature Air Launched Decoy (MALD), a low cost drone which mimics and uses its state-of-the-art Signature Augmentation Subsystem (SAS), comprised of various active radar enhancers covering a range of frequencies, pumping out signals that mimic the radar signature and flight profiles of a larger, more dangerous aircraft. Thus makes the SAM radar feel its a much bigger jet approaching there by either ignoring it completely or light them up revealing their positions.. Right..

Traditionally, anti aircraft missiles are much cheaper than the aircraft they are designed to destroy, the economics are in favour of missiles. Although it is a simplistic argument, if a missile costs a million $ each and an aircraft costs a hundred million $$, the exchange rate favours the missile. Reverse that, where the aircrafts costs less than the missile, the economics of the engagement becomes interesting.

Enemy forces will always have a finite stock of anti aircraft missiles at any particular point of attack and the more expensive long range varieties will also not be available in large quantities. Luring enemies into expending those scarce and expensive missiles at decoys is a cheap way of degrading their capabilities relatively safely. This does opens up the SAM shield multiple layers and proves the vulnerable nature of any system.

The numbers favour the attacker with such a capability.

 

[Basel]

To mimic a plane signature -- Idea is good, but Pakistan, don't have that capability, but China can do that. Actually mimicing plane won't be possible, but mimicking MMR Emitter is possible, but S-400 could be fooled for once, and soon Indian's will realize that, and filter that threat from the screen of Radar. Thats why I said high degree of planning and strategy.

Pakistan may already have that capability as we are building target drones since long.

Why are you thinking that they will be deployed 300-500 km inside the border. They will be deployed near the cities or the target of great importance. And the open space what you are talking what will you do to attack when there will be no base or city or installation.

And you are forgetting the Ground Survellance Radars, and Awaac Falcon in the indian side.


Thanks for joining the party late and then asking for the cake topping.

Mate, hadn't used the decoy option in this post. however read my earlier post for that.

In case of war Pakistan will only strike targets which will be treat to its security, no need to go after non relevant threats.

 

[zebra7]

Give me source for your claim

I work in Kamra and i am a scientist there ok

Pakistan may already have that capability as we are building target drones since long.


In case of war Pakistan will only strike targets which will be treat to its security, no need to go after non relevant threats.

Ok bhai bye you take the charge I am not a Pakistani any more.

 

[Maarkhoor]

I work in Kamra and i am a scientist there ok

Moron Kamra is not producing drone we gave large private and military network to produce drones. Which you failed miserably and begging Israel to get few UCAV don't talk nonsense.